Once Saved Always Saved: Fact or Fiction?

fatherjimparker said:

That reward will NOT be based on saying a sincere "sinner's prayer" one time but, on a life striving to please the Lord. (Actually imitating the Lord in His mercy. Imitation being the highest form of praise.)

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No, accepting Christ is what saves. You're right that it doesn't earn the rewards you are speaking of here. Gotta keep those two separate--1) salvation and 2) the saved being rewarded for how they lived.

HatGuy said:

Showing that he was one of the twelve doesn't really prove this. Remember at the Last Supper everyone calls Jesus "Lord" but Judas calls him "Teacher"? Perhaps Judas wasn't saved. But if he was, you are also making presumptions on his eternal destination. The scriptures give us no clue as to God's final judgement of the man, so I go no further than that when discussing him.

I enjoy the assurance of faith given to me by our Lord. So really, trying to get me to doubt my salvation is like trying to get me to doubt my existence.

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yes the scriptures give us a very strong evidence of where he went. and that he was damned to the lake of fire blotted out of the book of life. All who are not found in that book will be cast into the lake of fire. Jesis said it was better for him if he was not born. And Judas was clearly saved as jesus called him a sheep and belonging to the father even before he was given to jesus and Jesus called to him HIS 12 , Jesus said his sheep hear his voice and he gives unto them eternal life.

I know this will shatter the false views of many who have in their wisdom of man acted as if all who teach that a person can fall away are in error and many have for years been in their wrong doctrine. But as David slew Golith with one stone to the head and then the sword, one man Judas and the script about him slays this false teaching of OSAS and many other aspects of Calvinism.

MikeEnders said:

That might be what you think and your church teaches but there is nowhere in "sola scripture" that states that enlightened has to mean saved. Thats not logical and in facts is circular when you start reading the book. this is kind of like the "sanctified" and saved argument. 2,000 plus years of liturgy and theology and we claim that sanctified has to mean saved in the first century that didn't have that history of usage. Only it doesn't have to mean that and it doesn't in at least two places in "sola scripture"

"For the unbelieving husband is sanctified through his wife, and the unbelieving wife is sanctified through her believing husband; for otherwise your children are unclean, but now they are holy.
I Cor 7:14

"Notwithstanding she shall be saved in childbearing, if they continue in faith and charity and holiness with sobriety."
1 timothy 2;15

So all women are saved who have children? of course not clearly saved here is a reference to the greek word saved that had many other meanings in first century Rome.

Clearly also an unbelieving man is not soul saved and on his way to heaven even though he is an unbeliever merely because he marries a believer. Its clear here in "sola scripture" something else is meant and that is the meaning of the greek word as used outside the church in every day roman life - cleansing. there is a measure of cleansing that a Chrisitian wife will bring to her household as light and salt. NO salvation by marriage need be implied.

The word enlightened also has an every day meaning in first century Rome - photizo - to bring light to someone or something. If you were accurate about it being the word for saved and nothing else then we ought not be able to find it anywhere referring to the unsaved world. Right? but you are wrong it IS used in the "sola scripture" in reference to the unsaved world. Same exact word in the original greek

John 1:9 uses the exact same word
"He was the true Light, which doth enlighten every man, coming to the world;"

So is every man in the world now saved? Nope but light has been given and thats what enlighten means in the early church not what it means to us after 2000+ years of church talk.

Which should be a reminder to everyone. when someone SAYS something is "sola scripture" check first. Quite often as in this case the claim is without proper foundation.

If you have eyes you will see the false claim with some research.

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I can't show you what you don't want to see.

And, just to bring you up to speed, nowhere in scripture are you mentioned by name so you must not be real.

Everything in red describes people who are what is commonly referred to as "saved."

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This has been and is easily idebunked by the fact that you are applying our understanding of the words after 2,000+ years of church history. That historical reference was NOT and cannot be imposed on the first century church. In reality all the words being used in the New testament had no special meaning related to the church. They were all common day greek words. As I have shown point blank - enlightened in John 1 is used in the context of the whole world including unsaved, sanctified is used in places not referring to soul salvation. even saved is used in different contexts.

So the interpretation of passage must relates to their CONTEXT not demanding that a word has to have a certain meaning which it in fact doesn't in other places in scripture. Meanwhile like most people arguing your point you stop reading and ignore other CLEAR references that show the writer of Hebrew did not think he was talking about the Christians he was writing too

As the verse goes on the passage refers only to those who had shown no fruit

"7For ground that drinks the rain which often falls on it and brings forth vegetation useful to those for whose sake it is also tilled, receives a blessing from God; 8but if it yields thorns and thistles, it is worthless and close to being cursed, and it ends up being burned"

while The apostle said God would be unrighteous to include those who had shown fruit

" 9But, beloved, we are convinced of better things concerning you, and things that accompany salvation, though we are speaking in this way. 10For God is not unjust so as to forget your work and the love which you have shown toward His name, in having ministered and in still ministering to the saints"

Two clear indicators that the writer himself though giving a warning did not think it includes those who show fruit in Christ.

To claim sola scripture you can't just stop reading where its convenient to your position

fatherjimparker said:

I can't show you what you don't want to see.

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ditto

And, just to bring you up to speed, nowhere in scripture are you mentioned by name so you must not be real.

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Then see the doc first thing. Having forum conversations online when no one is typing back is a very very very bad sign.

No, accepting Christ is what saves. You're right that it doesn't earn the rewards you are speaking of here. Gotta keep those two separate--1) salvation and 2) the saved being rewarded for how they lived.

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You are exhibiting the confusion I found to be common when I was a Protestant.

From what are we "saved?"

We are "saved" from the wages of sin which is permanent death. Because Christi defeated death by His own death and resurrection, death can no longer hold anyone in the grave. All of mankind will be raised from the dead immortal and imperishable. (1Cor 15:51-53)

So when this corruptible has put on incorruption, and this mortal has put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written: “Death is swallowed up in victory.”

“O Death, where is your sting?
O Hades, where is your victory?”

The sting of death is sin, and the strength of sin is the law. But thanks be to God, who gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.(1Co 15:54-57)

Eternal life will be given to those "...who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality; but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness—indignation and wrath tribulation and anguish, on every soul of man who does evil, of the Jew first and also of the Greek; but glory, honor, and peace to everyone who works what is good,... "
(Rom 2:7-10)

Those two paths describe the results of believing/having faith and not believing/having faith.

So "salvation" is from the first death and all of mankind has been saved from that.
"Eternal life" is for those who believe and act on that belief. (No action is evidence of no belief.)

Man has free will, to reject.
Also the opposite is a lie,
Once lost, always lost. If you die lost, I believe Jesus, who gained the key from hell and death, can get us out there as well.

HatGuy said:

Angels are not "in Christ". Else they would also be the Bride of Christ, which they are not. I can't think of a single verse which speaks of angels in this way. The Church is "in Christ", but angels are not part of the Church.

The verses you quoted are in the context of false teachers, who may very well have never been saved. Jude speaking of God "destroying" those Israelites does not mean everlasting destruction (all we know is they died in the desert). Note that God never sent them back to Egypt. But he never let them enter their inheritance either, which is one of the reasons why it seems to me that such warnings have to do with a loss of inheritance (which is a big deal) and not eternal damnation.

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Angels are in the life and light of God they are eternal beings and where do you think they get the life and light and how can they be eternal without God. One day God shall be all in all, and all things in heaven and earth will be in him.

Ephesians 1:10
That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:

All things in heaven IN CHRIST? would that include angels in CHRIST? Are not angels part of the all things created in heaven in Christ?

Ephesians 3:9
And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:"

All things even angels were created by Christ

Genesis 32:1
And Jacob went on his way, and the angels of God met him.

What do you think the expression angels OF God means? How are they OF GOD?

Psalm 103:20
"Bless the Lord, ye his angels, that excel in strength, that do his commandments, hearkening unto the voice of his word."

Matthew 13:41
The Son of man shall send forth his angels..."

Notice they are HIS angels. What does HIS mean here?

Revelation 22:9
Then saith he unto me, See thou do it not: for I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren the prophets, and of them which keep the sayings of this book: worship God."

Notice the angel is OF the prophets, How does a prophet speak? unless he is in God and Gd in him?

"
Hebrews 1:6
And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him."

and all acceptable worship is now in the spirit, so are the angels in the spirit? and if so what does that mean to be IN the spirit?

Angels are sons of God. And believers are called sons of God. How can we be sons of God unless Gods Light is in us. Is Gods light in angels?

and Christ is the Word of God and all things were made by him, and the angels have spoken the word of God and so "in Him was life", are angels in LIFE? if so they are in him also.

we also read of angels that sinned. This would imply that the other angels did not sin. So how can an angel not sin? Is this because they abide in Gods life and truth. Is this not to be in the life and in some sense in Christ.

Angels can also preach the everlasting gospel, and rejoice over one sinner who repents I believe there is alot we don't understand about angels. But they are spiritual beings and the ones who did not fall are kept in the life by God and in him as well, for in Him that is in God the Word is life.

MikeEnders said:

God's word doesn't have anything to do with being entitled to views. Plus Kindly be reminded you interjected your thoughts to my views not the other way around. I merely responded to you questioning mine. No harm . No foul.

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Adding ones view to a discussion is not necessarily questioning anothers views... I simply pointed out we see it differently.

I said this:
"So, is your view that one must believe AND "make a real commitment"?"

MikeEnders said:

Where isn't it taught?" its all through the NT

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This is no way to defend one's view. The context of my comment was about getting saved. So, what verses teach that one must believe AND "make a real commitment" to be saved?

We are saved by the commitment and the power of salvation empowers us to fulfill the intent.

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Quite wrong. We are saved by the power of God. And by His grace. Not by our inadequate "commitment", however sincere one may try to be.

This idea that you can believe IN someone yet not follow what they tell you to do is nonsensical and totally opposed to the Biblical concept of true faith

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Then I see that there is a huge problem with what Jesus Himself said in Luke 8:13; "they believed for a while". That is a clear statement of ceasing to believe at some point.

Four different responses are noted in the parables. You cannot conflate them into one.

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What an odd charge. I never did. Of course there are 4 different outcomes or responses to the gospel
Soil #1 didn't believe.
Soil #2 believed for a while.
Soil #3 believed (based on the fact that plants came from the seeds) but life's distractions kept them from producing a crop.
Soil #4 believed and produces a crop.

The passage does not say they are saved.

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I sure wish people would actually read my posts before making such huge mistakes about what I posted. I never said the first soil was saved.

Instead it says the devil takes away the word so they won't believe AND be saved.

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Which is exactly what I posted. Those who read my post know that.

certainly you must believe to be saved but the passage makes it VERY clear and you are ignoring - They have no root, The word never gets into their heart.

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Having no root does NOT mean the Word "never gets into their heart". That's just made up. Soil #2 believed because Jesus SAID they did. And all passages on the parable indicate that the second and third soils produces plants from the seeds, obviously indicating new life.

The fourth seed is MARKEDLY different

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Yep. Sure is. A believer who actually produces a crop. This believer is in the minority as seen by a mere look at evangelicalism today.

'Others, like seed sown on good soil, hear the word, accept it, and produce a crop--some thirty, some sixty, some a hundred times what was sown."

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The "good soil" refers to the fact that these people grew up spiritually and matured. As a result, they produced a crop.

Those have the words in different soil...good soil ready to allow the seed to grow and flourish. You say they are all the same - saved. God's word says no such thing

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Please read my posts before such error. I never said all were saved. Your charge is false.

fatherjimparker said:

Oi veh! Again???

Heb 6:4-8 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come if they fall away,to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put Him to an open shame.

Everything in red describes people who are what is commonly referred to as "saved."
The phrase in purple describes people who lose that salvation.

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Slight problem here. There are NO verses that teach that "falling away" equals loss of salvation. That is merely a false assumption. As for the rest of your post, no evidence was given that supports the fallacy that to "fall away" equals "loss of salvation".

To "fall away" means to leave the faith. No longer follow it.

What is being ignored is the fact that Paul wrote in Rom 11:29 that God's gifts and calling are irrevocable. Now, what did he mean by 'gifts'? We don't have to assume anything, because he clearly defined what he meant.

In Rom 5:15-17, he defined justification as a gift of God. In Rom 6:23 he defined eternal life as a gift of God. The very next use of 'gift' is in 11:29 where he stated that God's gifts are irrevocable.

So we KNOW that our justification and eternal life are irrevocable.

JLB777 said:

5 And Moses indeed was faithful in all His house as a servant, for a testimony of those things which would be spoken afterward,
6 but Christ as a Son over His own house, whose house we are if we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm to the end.
7 Therefore, as the Holy Spirit says: "Today, if you will hear His voice,
8 Do not harden your hearts as in the rebellion, In the day of trial in the wilderness,
9 Where your fathers tested Me, tried Me, And saw My works forty years.
10 Therefore I was angry with that generation, And said, 'They always go astray in their heart, And they have not known My ways.'
11 So I swore in My wrath, 'They shall not enter My rest.' "
12 Beware, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief in departing from the living God;
13 but exhort one another daily, while it is called "Today," lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin.
14 For we have become partakers of Christ if we hold the beginning of our confidence steadfast to the end,
Hebrews 3:5-14


JLB

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That truth you have shared in part is applicable towards being of the firstfruits with Christ as standing apart from those that are Christ at His coming. May the Lord help you see the while picture.

1 Corinthians 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. 23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. 24 Then cometh the end, ....

So those abiding in Him will be partakers with Christ to inherit the eternal glory of being that vessel unto honour in His House that can never die like the angels.

Read Psalm 89 for God's promise to the seed that departed from Him under the New Covenant. This is why the foundation remains & only the works thereon are judged.

Psalm 89:27 Also I will make him my firstborn, higher than the kings of the earth. 28 My mercy will I keep for him for evermore, and my covenant shall stand fast with him. 29 His seed also will I make to endure for ever, and his throne as the days of heaven. 30 If his children forsake my law, and walk not in my judgments; 31 If they break my statutes, and keep not my commandments; 32 Then will I visit their transgression with the rod, and their iniquity with stripes. 33 Nevertheless my lovingkindness will I not utterly take from him, nor suffer my faithfulness to fail. 34 My covenant will I not break, nor alter the thing that is gone out of my lips. 35 Once have I sworn by my holiness that I will not lie unto David. 36 His seed shall endure for ever, and his throne as the sun before me. 37 It shall be established for ever as the moon, and as a faithful witness in heaven. Selah.

This is why they are still called His servants when getting their stripes when left behind.

Luke 12:40 Be ye therefore ready also: for the Son of man cometh at an hour when ye think not. 41 Then Peter said unto him, Lord, speakest thou this parable unto us, or even to all? 42 And the Lord said, Who then is that faithful and wise steward, whom his lord shall make ruler over his household, to give them their portion of meat in due season? 43 Blessed is that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing. 44 Of a truth I say unto you, that he will make him ruler over all that he hath. 45 But and if that servant say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming; and shall begin to beat the menservants and maidens, and to eat and drink, and to be drunken; 46 The lord of that servant will come in a day when he looketh not for him, and at an hour when he is not aware, and will cut him in sunder, and will appoint him his portion with the unbelievers. 47 And that servant, which knew his lord's will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes. 48 But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more. 49 I am come to send fire on the earth; and what will I, if it be already kindled?

If any saved believer runs that race to obtain salvation, then that is a work that denies Him as being their Saviour, and not having entered into that rest provided by Jesus Christ.

Hebrews 4:1Let us therefore fear, lest, a promise being left us of entering into his rest, any of you should seem to come short of it. 2 For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it. 3 For we which have believed do enter into rest, as he said, As I have sworn in my wrath, if they shall enter into my rest: although the works were finished from the foundation of the world.....

gordonhooker said:

Adding ones view to a discussion is not necessarily questioning anothers views... I simply pointed out we see it differently.

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a rose by any other name. Thought you said you were done with this?

Security of the believer is taught in the Word of God.

FreeGrace2 said:

This is no way to defend one's view. The context of my comment was about getting saved. So, what verses teach that one must believe AND "make a real commitment" to be saved?

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all the passages I referenced indicate that belief is more than a mental ascent and must be a real commitment. Stick your head in the sand if you wish. If you want to have a Christianity where you can sin like no tomorrow and be a christian you will have to do that in your imagination. You will have quite a frightening moment the second after you die that way though

Quite wrong. We are saved by the power of God. And by His grace. Not by our inadequate "commitment", however sincere one may try to be.

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Yeah thats why the lord said this

"27"Whoever does not carry his own cross and come after Me cannot be My disciple.28"For which one of you, when he wants to build a tower, does not first sit down and calculate the cost to see if he has enough to complete it?…"

because becoming a christian takes no commitment or intent to follow whatsoever. Please. What you are talking about isn't even grace anymore.You are begging for a license for people to sin rather than then be set free from sin. I'm saying grace transforms the man that puts his trust in Christ so that he lives in righteousness or at least in repentance. Calling that works is totally ridiculous and scripture twisting. Living a holy life is the fruit of the spirit not works.

Then I see that there is a huge problem with what Jesus Himself said in Luke 8:13; "they believed for a while". That is a clear statement of ceasing to believe at some point.

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and not a word about them being saved. The only one even mentions salvation is the first seed not hearing the word and believing which is why you ARE tying to conflate it to the rest since there is no more mention of salvation.

Having no root does NOT mean the Word "never gets into their heart". That's just made up.

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Sorry I am sure you have deluded yourself and are honestly confused but thats just totally ridiculous head ducking. It can't be mind or brain because the last three all hear the gospel and respond to it mentally. The ground is obviously heart there is nothing else . Theres only one good soil in the whole text and its the last one. you are trying to get out of it but the passage is clear if you would read it

12"Those beside the road are those who have heard; then the devil comes and takes away the word from THEIR HEART, so that they will not believe and be saved.…

"But the seed in the good soil, these are the ones who have heard the word in an honest and good HEART, and hold it fast, and bear fruit with perseverance."

Like it or not , swing high or swing the only one the lord says has a good and honest heart anywhere in the process is the last one. the rest of their hearts are not in a good place with God at any time because none of them but the last have the ground/heart that is good and honest. Not my words - Christ's.

SinnerInTheHands said:

Why then do we find St. Augustine teaching the doctrine in the 4th-5th centuries?

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Because he brought it with him when he became a Christian. Even though he did believe it the church rejected it. They were simply following those who had gone before. The doctrine has it's roots in philosophy and Gnosticism and was rejected as heresy in the early church. We don't find this doctrine in the church until the time of the rebels. Luther was an Augustinian monk and Calvin too was influenced by Augustine. It wasn't until the Reformation or the rebellion against the church that this doctrine became a "church" doctrine. You spoke of Augustine but there were others who taught this before him, however, they weren't Christians

It seems to me that the problem here is one of faith.

I believe that He is able to keep what I have committed to Him against that day.

Others here do not believe that.

I wouldn't be one to say for absolute certain that a person who believes that they must keep up a certain standard or else Christ is NOT able to keep what they have entrusted to Him against that day - doesn't have "saving faith."

But I wouldn't want to be one who plays around the edges of faith in Christ's work at Calvary in the way I see some doing here in the forum for all the gold in all the world.

"I know whom I have believed and I am convinced that He is able to guard what I have entrusted to Him until that day."
2 Timothy 1:12

Good luck with your weak faith. I'm going with my strong faith in Christ's accomplishments on my behalf.

Just sayin!

Marvin Knox said:

It seems to me that the problem here is one of faith.

I believe that He is able to keep what I have committed to Him against that day.

Others here do not believe that.

I wouldn't be one to say for absolute certain that a person who believes that they must keep up a certain standard or else Christ is NOT able to keep what they have entrusted to Him against that day - doesn't have "saving faith."

But I wouldn't want to be one who plays around the edges of faith in Christ's work at Calvary in the way I see some doing here in the forum for all the gold in all the world.

"I know whom I have believed and I am convinced that He is able to guard what I have entrusted to Him until that day."
2 Timothy 1:12

Good luck with your weak faith. I'm going with my strong faith in Christ's accomplishments on my behalf.

Just sayin!

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The OSAS argument isn't about God's or Christ's ability to do anything. It's about man's willingness to remain faithful.

FreeGrace2 said:

First, context is everything. Second, your suggestion here pits Scripture against Scripture. Is that your agenda? Paul defined both justification and eternal life as gifts of God in Rom 5:16 and 6:23. The very next time he mentioned God's gifts is in Rom 11:29 where he wrote that God's gifts are IRREVOCABLE. I'm not shouting. I'm emphasizing what the Bible SAYS.
Such a view is "all about me". If I stay faithful, if I am sincere, I will remain saved. Sorry, but the Bible teaches that God's children (those who have believed and ARE saved) are held by God. Not the other way around, as your view insinuates.
Also, why would anyone think that one has the authority or power to make a "willful conscious decision to lose salvation"?? Where does the Bible SAY that?
No one saves themselves, and no one loses their salvation.
And eternal life is irrevocable. The Bible SAYS so.

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1)Salvation is a gift from God. Gifts may be returned/refused. I might give you a hundred dollars forever, but I can't control if you throw or give away.
2)We are saved by grace (God's grace) through faith (our faith). Salvation is a two-part contract. Both parties must maintain the contract for it to be valid. God does not 'hold' us so tightly that we cannot leave if we insist. King Saul started out a Godly man, even prophesying, but he turned away. If we have freedom to accept God, we have freedom to reject.
3)Salvation must be accepted, else there would be no need for the 'sinner's prayer' of repentance. Again, if we have the freedom to accept, we have the freedom to reject. I don't think this happens often. As stated, salvation is a willful and conscious decision, not an accident or impulsive act. We are not robots or automatons. We have freedom of choice.

if the quote from the Revelation in re; blotting out does not mean removal of name from Book of Life, what does it mean?

dupe post