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Once Saved Always Saved: Fact or Fiction?

'Once Saved Always Saved': Fact or Fiction?

  • Fact.

  • Fiction.


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AVBunyan

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Lose Your Salvation in Two Easy Steps
There is a lot debate today on losing one’s salvation. I’ve decided to boil it down to 2 simple steps.

1. Do something that causes you to lose it.

Now, I don’t know what that “something” could be because Paul never talked about it and since Paul is the apostle to the Gentiles and the revealer of the body of Christ to us today then he would be the one to tell us what to do to lose it. Since Paul spent 13 epistles expounding Christ and justification surely he would spend some time on how to lose it!

2. Undo all that God did at your salvation.
Now, let’s go down a simple list of things that God did and all you have to do is make this list your check list and mark them all as you undo them.

1) Get God to un-forgive you – Eph. 1:7
2) Get God to un-redeem you - Rom. 3:24
3) Get God to un-circumcise you – Col. 2:13
4) Get God to un-adopt you – Rom. 8:15
5) Get God to un-seat you – Eph. 2:6
6) Get God to un-sanctify you – I Cor. 6:11
7) Get God to un-glorify you – Rom. 8:30
8) Get God to un-seal you – Eph. 1:13
9) Get God to un-justify you – Rom. 3:24; 8:30
10) Get God to un-bless you – Eph. 1:3
11) Get God to un-bury you – Rom. 6:4; Col. 2:12
12) Get God to un-raise you – Eph. 2:6
13) Get God to un-quicken you – Eph. 2:1
14) Get God to take Christ out of you – Col. 1:27
15) Get God to take you out of Christ’s physical body – Eph. 5:30

And a few more that I failed to present here.

If you can undo all that God has done for you then you are free and clear once again. Then when you “repent” and get right then all the above 15 things will happen again. Then when you “sin it away” again then you can undo it all over again!

God bless!
 
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BukiRob

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I've grown up in a Christian home that believes Once Saved Always Saved (OSAS), and I, myself, have doubts about it but am for it. With the debates that circle it on many occasions, what is your viewpoint and reasoning behind it; whether it is supposedly fact or suplosedly fiction?


EDIT*: I don't think this thread applies to this forum.
Were this true Paul would have never said "So then, my beloved, just as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your salvation with fear and trembling;" Philippians 2:12

I suppose its a matter of how you define "being saved" if its just "praying" a special prayer and that is how you define being "saved" then OSAS is error.

The better place to start this question is to define what is being saved. What does it mean.

Abraham believed G-d and it was reckoned to him as righteousness. Salvation occurs by faith through grace. The evidence of this is the fruit we see in a life. Is there any change in this person at all?

Frankly, this is not as simple as A+B=C C= Salvation.

Messiah gives us examples in the parable of the sower:

3 And He spoke many things to them in parables, saying, “Behold, the sower went out to sow; 4 and as he sowed, some seeds fell beside the road, and the birds came and ate them up. 5 Others fell on the rocky places, where they did not have much soil; and immediately they sprang up, because they had no depth of soil. 6 But when the sun had risen, they were scorched; and because they had no root, they withered away. 7 Others fell among the thorns, and the thorns came up and choked them out. 8 And others fell on the good soil and *yielded a crop, some a hundredfold, some sixty, and some thirty. 9 He who has ears, [c]let him hear.”

Yeshua explains the parable a little further down in this chapter.

18 “Hear then the parable of the sower. 19 When anyone hears the word of the kingdom and does not understand it, the evil one comes and snatches away what has been sown in his heart. This is the one on whom seed was sown beside the road. 20 The one on whom seed was sown on the rocky places, this is the man who hears the word and immediately receives it with joy; 21 yet he has no firm root in himself, but is only temporary, and when affliction or persecution arises because of the [j]word, immediately he [k]falls away. 22 And the one on whom seed was sown among the thorns, this is the man who hears the word, and the worry of the [l]world and the deceitfulness of wealth choke the word, and it becomes unfruitful. 23 And the one on whom seed was sown on the good soil, this is the man who hears the word and understands it; who indeed bears fruit and brings forth, some a hundredfold, some sixty, and some thirty.”

Now the real question is this... is it only those in verse 23 who are saved? My thought is probably not. My inclination is that those in verse 22 are saved but did not bare fruit... BUT I certainly could be wrong. What I know for sure is those in verse 23 are saved.

Verse 22 are what we would call as fleshly believers.... are they saved? Only G-d knows that answer
 
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BukiRob

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Lose Your Salvation in Two Easy Steps
There is a lot debate today on losing one’s salvation. I’ve decided to boil it down to 2 simple steps.

1. Do something that causes you to lose it.

Now, I don’t know what that “something” could be because Paul never talked about it and since Paul is the apostle to the Gentiles and the revealer of the body of Christ to us today then he would be the one to tell us what to do to lose it. Since Paul spent 13 epistles expounding Christ and justification surely he would spend some time on how to lose it!

2. Undo all that God did at your salvation.
Now, let’s go down a simple list of things that God did and all you have to do is make this list your check list and mark them all as you undo them.

1) Get God to un-forgive you – Eph. 1:7
2) Get God to un-redeem you - Rom. 3:24
3) Get God to un-circumcise you – Col. 2:13
4) Get God to un-adopt you – Rom. 8:15
5) Get God to un-seat you – Eph. 2:6
6) Get God to un-sanctify you – I Cor. 6:11
7) Get God to un-glorify you – Rom. 8:30
8) Get God to un-seal you – Eph. 1:13
9) Get God to un-justify you – Rom. 3:24; 8:30
10) Get God to un-bless you – Eph. 1:3
11) Get God to un-bury you – Rom. 6:4; Col. 2:12
12) Get God to un-raise you – Eph. 2:6
13) Get God to un-quicken you – Eph. 2:1
14) Get God to take Christ out of you – Col. 1:27
15) Get God to take you out of Christ’s physical body – Eph. 5:30

And a few more that I failed to present here.

If you can undo all that God has done for you then you are free and clear once again. Then when you “repent” and get right then all the above 15 things will happen again. Then when you “sin it away” again then you can undo it all over again!

God bless!

Matthew 13 is a bit problematic with your view is it not?

“Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter.22 “Many will say to Me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?’ 23 “And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; DEPART FROM ME, YOU WHO PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS.’
 
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MikeEnders

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So, is your view that one must believe AND "make a real commitment"?

Where isn't it taught?" its all through the NT
"not every one that says lord"
"my brethren are those who do the will of God"
"he that loveth not his brother is still in darkness"
"how do you call me lord lord and do not the things I say"
"faith without works is dead"

Faith in the NT always includes obedience and a commitment to obey. We are saved by the commitment and the power of salvation empowers us to fulfill the intent.

This idea that you can believe IN someone yet not follow what they tell you to do is nonsensical and totally opposed to the Biblical concept of true faith

Jesus Himself noted of the first soil: "lest they believe and be saved". Here, He used the aorist tense, which means a point in time action. He was making the point that when one believes they ARE saved. In the next verse, He notes that "they believed for a while".
Four different responses are noted in the parables. You cannot conflate them into one. The passage does not say they are saved. Instead it says the devil takes away the word so they won't believe AND be saved. certainly you must believe to be saved but the passage makes it VERY clear and you are ignoring - They have no root, The word never gets into their heart. The fourth seed is MARKEDLY different

'Others, like seed sown on good soil, hear the word, accept it, and produce a crop--some thirty, some sixty, some a hundred times what was sown."

Those have the words in different soil...good soil ready to allow the seed to grow and flourish. You say they are all the same - saved. God's word says no such thing
 
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Marvin Knox

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Matthew 13 is a bit problematic with your view is it not?

“Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter.22 “Many will say to Me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?’ 23 “And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; DEPART FROM ME, YOU WHO PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS.’
When the Lord said "I never knew you" He pretty much answered the question about whether this passage is appropriate to use to teach loss of salvation.

Never means never. If He never knew them they were never saved.

All this passage really seems to teach is that those who never knew Him in this life will continue in that state forever.
 
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MikeEnders

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John 3:36 "He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him."

Your own proof text betrays you. says right there if you do not obey the son youwill not see life. How can someone living their entire life disobeying the son then die see lie based on that verse?

Heres the problem with all your passages and ideas. You see salvation as hell/heaven insurance. the bible teaches salvation is being free from sin. IF you are still living in it and wallowing in it unrepentant thats NOT salvation according to the NT.

What do you do with this verse?

"No one who abides in Him sins; no one who sins has seen Him or knows Him. 7Little children, make sure no one deceives you; the one who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous; 8the one who practices sin is of the devil; for the devil has sinned from the beginning. The Son of God appeared for this purpose, to destroy the works of the devil"
i john 3:7-9

Bare in mind its talking about living in a state of sin as a life style. John already stated earlier every one sins and has a advocate in Christ
 
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gordonhooker

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So you read that the Apostles prayed to Mary and patron saints eh? Where? in the book of Mormon?

Actually they don't pray to Mary and the other saints they ask Mary and the other saints to pray for them, just as ask my friends that are still around me to pray for me. I have never read the Book of Mormon but I have read the Bible and 3 passages come to mind off the top of my head that refer to either a person alive praying for others and departed saints praying for others, Paul also talks about praying for others as well:

Col 4:12, Rev 5:8, and Rev 8:3-4.

I have always found it quite bizarre why some denominations are so anti asking others to intercede for them especially when it comes to asking the Mother of our Lord to pray for us. She is a pretty special person in my view.
 
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gordonhooker

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Hi Gordon - Yes I firmly believe the King James Bible is....it - all others are counterfiet - tough but that's life. I didn't mean the others are there only to support heresy but that you can find another version that will support certain heresies.
God bless

OK thanks - I must say I disagree but you are entitled to your belief.

Blessings, Gordon
 
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mafugma

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Hi – I understand about being led astray but knowing I have the final authority in my hands gives me confidence – I read all kinds of writers and I don’t worry about it for I have my final authority in my hands.

By the way – there are only 2 bibles/manuscripts.

1. One originated in Asia Minor from which the AV is from.

2. The other originated in Egypt translated by a lost philosopher named Origen. All modern versions are based on the set of manuscripts from Egypt. Rome bases their version on the Alexandrian text so if you have any other bible besides the King James you have a Catholic bible. The NWT came from Alexandria just like all the others you mentioned you read.

God bless

You need to learn the history of the Bible you read. The people who wrote the King James Bible referred to a number of authorized Bibles as sources to keep their translation as true as possible and is based on the Bishop's Bible. Here are just a few Bibles preceding the auth. KJ and used as a references for its "version" - the Tyndale Bible, the Coverdale Bible, Matthew's Bible, the Great Bible, the Geneva Bible, and the Douay–Rheims Bible. I also have these Bibles and use them as cross-references myself. I don't know who taught you what you are spewing but all I had to do was look at a Wiki page for a few minutes to refute that garbage. I just happened to recognize all but the Great Bible as ones I own and read. I am not criticizing the fact that you use the KJ "version" not "translation" as your only Bible but don't knock other people's until you know what you're talking about. I left the references in so you can double check and see what I'm writing is based on fact not third hand conjecture. Call it the final authority if you want but people were reading plenty of other Bibles before the KJ.

(edit-note, the Oxford NEB I use is a translation that is more literal and was not influenced by a king to say what he wanted it to)
 
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gordonhooker

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This poem by a 19th century Irish poet pretty much sums up the width and the depth of the mercy and Love of God in my humble opinion. God was so humble and loved his creation so much that he incarnated in the flesh, lived and died such a horrible death I would suggest even forgiving his fallen angels not beyond belief... All this arguing about scripture although it is good for the ego and helps to stimulate the grey matter in our heads it really gets us no where other than frustrated and annoyed with one another. :)

blessings, Gordon

The Fullness of Time
By James Stephens (b. 1882)

On a rusty iron throne
Past the furthest star of space
I saw Satan sit alone,
Old and haggard was his face;
For his work was done and he
Rested in eternity.

And to him from out the sun
Came his father and his friend
Saying, now the work is done
Enmity is at an end:
And he guided Satan to
Paradises that he knew.

Gabriel without a frown,
Uriel without a spear,
Raphael came singing down
Welcoming their ancient peer,
And they seated him beside
One who had been crucified.
 
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MikeEnders

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Actually they don't pray to Mary and the other saints they ask Mary and the other saints to pray

Asking anything of someone that is deceased and not here in the physical but in the spiritual realm is praying. Sorry but thats just spin as is trying to use col 4:12 which is a person alive praying for you directly to Christ. People pray to Mary because just as you just said they consider her special in an intercessory way. Besides the whole semantic claim is false . Many Catholics say they are praying to Mary.

I have always found it quite bizarre why some denominations are so anti asking others to intercede for them

Some what of a strawman. Intercessory prayer of other alive believers is not the issue and I find it bizarre you would claim there are many or any denominations that think asking another believer to pray for them is a problem. I'd sure like to know of these denominations you are claiming this for. Heres the huge difference

A) no intercessor on Earth has any special line. They go straight to Christ and no intercessor is needed between them and their Lord
B) all intercessors are alive and here in the flesh not being reached from the other side. We pray alongside not ask others to pray for us as our representatives.

Catholics have different views but its beyond ridiculous for one of them to call me cultic because I only quoted one verse (and had many more but only quoted one) but swallow whole very dubious theologies that over the years Catholics have held to. If I am cultic then Roman Catholics over the year would be more than cultic by the same measuring stick.
 
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If you walk away, you were not saved.

That is circular reasoning. (Not logical) It is nonsense.

And scripture specifically refutes that notion.

Heb 6:4-6 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, if they fall away, to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put Him to an open shame.

Being "enlightened" (having seen the true light), tasting the heavenly gifts, partaking of the Holy Spirit, tasting the good word of God and the powers of the age to come describe in great detail the condition of someone who is saved.

"If they fall away" refers specifically to losing that salvation.

That's what the inerrant. infallible, sola scripture tells you if you have eyes to see it.
 
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Gonna have to show verses that teach this.

Oi veh! Again???

Heb 6:4-8 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come if they fall away,to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put Him to an open shame.

Everything in red describes people who are what is commonly referred to as "saved."
The phrase in purple describes people who lose that salvation.

[/QUOTE] Why just take someone's opinion about it? Where does the Bible teach that ceasing to believe or walking away, or "serving mammon" RESULTS in loss of salvation??[/QUOTE]

Oi veh! WHere to start....... "In the beginning....""

It would require a rather extended conversation to get you from a place where you would ask that question to a place where you would understand the answer.

A forum is not the place.


[/QUOTE]So, what verses teach that one can leave their salvation?[/QUOTE]

The following passages teach that one can lose their salvation:


(1) JN 15:1 "I am the true vine, and my Father is the gardener. 2 He cuts off every branch in me that bears no fruit,

15:5 "I am the vine; you are the branches. If a man remains in me and I in him, he will bear much fruit; apart from me you can do nothing. 6 IF ANYONE DOES NOT REMAIN IN ME, HE IS LIKE A BRANCH THAT IS THROWN AWAY AND WITHERS; SUCH BRANCHES ARE PICKED UP, THROWN INTO THE FIRE AND BURNED.

(2) RO 11:17 If some of the branches have been broken off, and you, though a wild olive shoot, have been grafted in among the others and now share in the nourishing sap from the olive root, 18 do not boast over those branches. If you do, consider this: You do not support the root, but the root supports you. 19 You will say then, "Branches were broken off so that I could be grafted in." 20 Granted. But they were broken off because of unbelief, and you stand by faith. Do not be arrogant, but be afraid. 21 For IF GOD DID NOT SPARE THE NATURAL BRANCHES, HE WILL NOT SPARE YOU EITHER.

22 CONSIDER THEREFORE THE KINDNESS AND STERNNESS OF GOD: STERNNESS TO THOSE WHO FELL, BUT KINDNESS TO YOU, PROVIDED THAT YOU CONTINUE IN HIS KINDNESS. OTHERWISE, YOU ALSO WILL BE CUT OFF.

(3)1CO 9:27 No, I beat my body and make it my slave so that after I have preached to others, I myself will not be disqualified for the prize.

(4) 1CO 10:12 So, if you think you are standing firm, be careful that you don't fall!

(5) COL 1:21 Once you were alienated from God and were enemies in your minds because of your evil behavior. 22 But now HE HAS RECONCILED YOU BY CHRIST'S PHYSICAL BODY THROUGH DEATH TO PRESENT YOU HOLY IN HIS SIGHT, WITHOUT BLEMISH AND FREE FROM ACCUSATION-- 23 IF YOU CONTINUE IN YOUR FAITH, established and firm, not moved from the hope held out in the gospel.

(6) HEB 3:12 See to it, brothers, that none of you has a sinful, unbelieving heart that turns away from the living God. 13 But encourage one another daily, as long as it is called Today, so that none of you may be hardened by sin's deceitfulness. 14 WE HAVE COME TO SHARE IN CHRIST IF WE HOLD FIRMLY TILL THE END THE CONFIDENCE WE HAD AT FIRST.

(7) HEB 6:4 It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, 5 who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age, 6 IF THEY FALL AWAY, to be brought back to repentance, because to their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting himto public disgrace.

(8) PHP 3:7 But whatever was to my profit I now consider loss for the sake of Christ. 8 What is more, I consider everything a loss compared to the surpassing greatness of knowing Christ Jesus my Lord, for whose sake I have lost all things. I consider them rubbish, that I may gain Christ 9 and be found in him, not having a righteousness of my own that comes from the law, but that which is through faith in Christ--the righteousness that comes from God and is by faith. 10 I want to know Christ and the power of his resurrection and the fellowship of sharing in his sufferings, becoming like him in his death, 11 and so, somehow, to attain to the resurrection from the dead.

PHP 3:12 Not that I have already obtained all this, or have already been made perfect, but I press on to take hold of that for which Christ Jesus took hold of me. 13 Brothers, I do not consider myself yet to have taken hold of it. But one thing I do: Forgetting what is behind and straining toward what is ahead, 14 I press on toward the goal to win the prize for which God has called me heavenward in Christ Jesus.

(9)2PE 1:5 For this very reason, make every effort to add to your faith goodness; and to goodness, knowledge; 6 and to knowledge, self-control; and to self-control, perseverance; and to perseverance, godliness; 7 and to godliness, brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness, love. 8 For if you possess these qualities in increasing measure, they will keep you from being ineffective and unproductive in your knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9 But if anyone does not have them, he is nearsighted and blind, and has forgotten that he has been cleansed from his past sins.

2PE 1:10 Therefore, my brothers, be all the more eager to make your calling and election sure. For IF YOU DO THESE THINGS, YOU WILL NEVER FALL,

(10) 2PE 2: 20 IF THEY HAVE ESCAPED THE CORRUPTION OF THE WORLD BY KNOWING OUR LORD AND SAVIOR JESUS CHRIST AND ARE AGAIN ENTANGLED IN IT AND OVERCOME, THEY ARE WORSE OFF AT THE END THAN THEY WERE AT THE BEGINNING. 21 It would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than to have known it and then to turn their backs on the sacred command that was passed on to them.

(11) EZE 18:24 "But if a righteous man turns from his righteousness and commits sin and does the same detestable things the wicked man does, will he live? None of the righteous things he has done will be remembered. Because of the unfaithfulness he is guilty of and because of the sins he has committed, he will die.”
 
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(Wait a minute! You're Catholic and you're arguing with me?????)

Orthodox, actually.

The only thing I don't agree on is about the righteous belonging at the judgment. They're there because it is at the judgment that Christ will pronounce their reward. (Ro 2) The wicked get the wages of sin. (A SECOND death! Oi veh!) And the righteous inherit the Kingdom prepared for them.

That reward will NOT be based on saying a sincere "sinner's prayer" one time but, on a life striving to please the Lord. (Actually imitating the Lord in His mercy. Imitation being the highest form of praise.)[/QUOTE]

Whoooops! Sorry, Father! Didn't mean to insult you! I've been Eastern Catholic for 15 years and we love the Orthodox, especially the priests! God Bless![/QUOTE]

Mazeltov! :)
 
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gordonhooker

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Asking anything of someone that is deceased and not here in the physical but in the spiritual realm is praying. Sorry but thats just spin as is trying to use col 4:12 which is a person alive praying for you directly to Christ. People pray to Mary because just as you just said they consider her special in an intercessory way. Besides the whole semantic claim is false . Many Catholics say they are praying to Mary.



Some what of a strawman. Intercessory prayer of other alive believers is not the issue and I find it bizarre you would claim there are many or any denominations that think asking another believer to pray for them is a problem. I'd sure like to know of these denominations you are claiming this for. Heres the huge difference

A) no intercessor on Earth has any special line. They go straight to Christ and no intercessor is needed between them and their Lord
B) all intercessors are alive and here in the flesh not being reached from the other side. We pray alongside not ask others to pray for us as our representatives.

Catholics have different views but its beyond ridiculous for one of them to call me cultic because I only quoted one verse (and had many more but only quoted one) but swallow whole very dubious theologies that over the years Catholics have held to. If I am cultic then Roman Catholics over the year would be more than cultic by the same measuring stick.

Hi Mike,

We will just to agree to disagree on this matter - I am just as entitled to my view as you are to yours, so I will leave it with you.

Blessings, Gordon
 
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AVBunyan

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Matthew 13 is a bit problematic with your view is it not?

“Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter.22 “Many will say to Me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?’ 23 “And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; DEPART FROM ME, YOU WHO PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS.’
Easy enough -
1. This is prior to Calvary when the blood atonement was not in effect. What a place to start from!
2. The Kingdom of Heaven is the literal, physical Jewish kingdom promised to Israel in the OT and was being offered to Israel under the ministries of John the Baptist and Jesus. To get into this kingdom one had to have faith in what God said and works - Matt. 19:16-22. The Jew haws to keep the law to get in.

I'm not a Jew trying to get into a kingom on earth - I am a saint who was baptized into the literal body of Christ when I believed the gospel of Paul found in I Cor. 15:1-5.

Life can be so simple sometimes.

God bless!
 
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MikeEnders

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That is circular reasoning. (Not logical) It is nonsense.

Being "enlightened" (having seen the true light), tasting the heavenly gifts, partaking of the Holy Spirit, tasting the good word of God and the powers of the age to come describe in great detail the condition of someone who is saved..

That's what the inerrant. infallible, sola scripture tells you if you have eyes to see it.


That might be what you think and your church teaches but there is nowhere in "sola scripture" that states that enlightened has to mean saved. Thats not logical and in facts is circular when you start reading the book. this is kind of like the "sanctified" and saved argument. 2,000 plus years of liturgy and theology and we claim that sanctified has to mean saved in the first century that didn't have that history of usage. Only it doesn't have to mean that and it doesn't in at least two places in "sola scripture"

"For the unbelieving husband is sanctified through his wife, and the unbelieving wife is sanctified through her believing husband; for otherwise your children are unclean, but now they are holy.
I Cor 7:14

"Notwithstanding she shall be saved in childbearing, if they continue in faith and charity and holiness with sobriety."
1 timothy 2;15

So all women are saved who have children? of course not clearly saved here is a reference to the greek word saved that had many other meanings in first century Rome.

Clearly also an unbelieving man is not soul saved and on his way to heaven even though he is an unbeliever merely because he marries a believer. Its clear here in "sola scripture" something else is meant and that is the meaning of the greek word as used outside the church in every day roman life - cleansing. there is a measure of cleansing that a Chrisitian wife will bring to her household as light and salt. NO salvation by marriage need be implied.

The word enlightened also has an every day meaning in first century Rome - photizo - to bring light to someone or something. If you were accurate about it being the word for saved and nothing else then we ought not be able to find it anywhere referring to the unsaved world. Right? but you are wrong it IS used in the "sola scripture" in reference to the unsaved world. Same exact word in the original greek

John 1:9 uses the exact same word
"He was the true Light, which doth enlighten every man, coming to the world;"

So is every man in the world now saved? Nope but light has been given and thats what enlighten means in the early church not what it means to us after 2000+ years of church talk.

Which should be a reminder to everyone. when someone SAYS something is "sola scripture" check first. Quite often as in this case the claim is without proper foundation.

If you have eyes you will see the false claim with some research.
 
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MikeEnders

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Hi Mike,
just as entitled to my view as you are to yours, so I will leave it with you.

God's word doesn't have anything to do with being entitled to views. Plus Kindly be reminded you interjected your thoughts to my views not the other way around. I merely responded to you questioning mine. No harm . No foul.
 
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AVBunyan

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1. You need to learn the history of the Bible you read.
2. I don't know who taught you what you are spewing but all I had to do was look at a Wiki page for a few minutes to refute that garbage.
3. Call it the final authority if you want but people were reading plenty of other Bibles before the KJ.
4. (edit-note, the Oxford NEB I use is a translation that is more literal and was not influenced by a king to say what he wanted it to)
1. Oh - I've read a little on the subject over the last 35 tears or so. I've read most of the modern books which find fault with the AV and they don't keep me awake enough to make me yawn.
2. Who taught me the garbage that helped me to believe the AV? I've read Dean Burgeon, Otis Fuller, EF Hills, Dr. Ruckman, Pickering, JJ Ray, Clark, Reagon, Riplinger, and more, etc. They taught me to have faith in the AV - Who taught you out of the King James Bible? Sounds like you've been listening to a serpent who said in Gen. 3, "Yea, hath God said?"
3. Where did I say there were not bibles before the AV? Yes, the Great Bible, Tyndale, Matthews, Luther's, etc. all came from the same text as the AV - there were bibles all over the place for 1300 years prior to the AV but they were based on trexts from Asia Minor. The other set from Alexandria is what the Catholic bibles are based on so if you are reading any other bible besides an AV you are reading a Catholic bible - just lay your favorite modern version next to any Catholic bible and see how similar they are.
4. Mercy - talking about a history lesson - James I commissioned the work to begin - that was all he had a hand in. Who taught you that James influeced the actual translation?

God bless
 
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