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A translation is not evidence of anything. In the Greek NT chilioi G5507 has one meaning, exactly 1000 of something.
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But that doesn't stop me repeating the text you avoided.
The word chilia is a “nominative and accusative plural neuter” of chilioi, which is the masculine form of this adjective. Both “-a” and “-oi” are plural endings in the Greek language. Greek is an inflected language in which adjectives have to match the nouns they modify in gender and number. In the case before us, the word chilia precedes the plural noun “years,” thus the adjective “thousand” has to be plural because its meaning is inherently plural.
To insist on a literal rendering, this word needs prefixed by a number to denote exact value. However, in the case of 2 Peter 3 and Revelation 20 no number precedes the word chilia thus leaving it indefinite.
And 7 has one meaning, 7?A translation is not evidence of anything. In the Greek NT chilioi G5507 has one meaning, exactly 1000 of something.
And 7 has one meaning, 7?
Therefore Jesus has 7 eyes and 7 horns?
3.5 means a limited time or short period.
12 being the tribes of Israel, and 12 * 12 = 144 being the tribes multiplied by the Apostles multiplied by "a gazillion" (1000) - see below.
1000 being 'a very large number, a gazillion'
On what basis can you say that any of those numbers are exact?I am actually using the Greek language to prove what "thousand" of something means and does not mean.
Not in the Greek language. The word John used is a word that means exactly a thousand of something. It can be years, men, rocks, anything.
That's a false assumption. Revelation uses exact numbers all the time:
Revelation 7:4
And I heard the number of those who were sealed, one hundred and forty-four thousand sealed from every tribe of the sons of Israel:
Revelation 7:5
from the tribe of Judah, twelve thousand were sealed, from the tribe of Reuben twelve thousand, from the tribe of Gad twelve thousand,
Revelation 7:6
from the tribe of Asher twelve thousand, from the tribe of Naphtali twelve thousand, from the tribe of Manasseh twelve thousand,
Revelation 7:7
from the tribe of Simeon twelve thousand, from the tribe of Levi twelve thousand, from the tribe of Issachar twelve thousand,
Revelation 7:8
from the tribe of Zebulun twelve thousand, from the tribe of Joseph twelve thousand, from the tribe of Benjamin, twelve thousand were sealed.
Revelation 11:13
And in that hour there was a great earthquake, and a tenth of the city fell; seven thousand people were killed in the earthquake, and the rest were terrified and gave glory to the God of heaven.
Revelation 12:6
Then the woman fled into the wilderness where she *had a place prepared by God, so that there she would be nourished for one thousand two hundred and sixty days.
Revelation 14:1
Then I looked, and behold, the Lamb was standing on Mount Zion, and with Him one hundred and forty-four thousand, having His name and the name of His Father written on their foreheads.
Revelation 14:3
And they *sang a new song before the throne and before the four living creatures and the elders; and no one could learn the song except the one hundred and forty-four thousand who had been purchased from the earth.
Revelation 20:2
And he laid hold of the dragon, the serpent of old, who is the devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years;
Revelation 20:3
and he threw him into the abyss, and shut it and sealed it over him, so that he would not deceive the nations any longer, until the thousand years were completed; after these things he must be released for a short time.
Revelation 20:4
Then I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was given to them. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony of Jesus and because of the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received the mark on their forehead and on their hand; and they came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.
Revelation 20:5
The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were completed. This is the first resurrection.
Revelation 20:6
Blessed and holy is the one who has a part in the first resurrection; over these the second death has no power, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with Him for a thousand years.
Revelation 20:7
When the thousand years are completed, Satan will be released from his prison,
The 144k are exactly that many people, 144,000...12k from each tribe. I mean, how much more exact can you get?
On what basis can you say that any of those numbers are exact?
Is there any sense that the word could be used symbolically, like a bunch of other words in Revelation? In Revelation 13:14, we have the word “beast”. The definition is “dangerous animal”. Using your hermeneutic, there’s no way for that to mean a man or government because if that’s what John meant to convey, he would have used a different word.I explained it in my original post. There is only one word and way to suggest an unknown thousand of something but it's using a different word, not chilioi.
Is there any sense that the word could be used symbolically, like a bunch of other words in Revelation?
But why not?Not a number unless it's used twice like here:
Rev 5:11 And I beheld, and I heard the voice of many angels round about the throne and the beasts and the elders: and the number of them was ten thousand times ten thousand, and thousands of thousands;
I have trouble with that because it's also used in Peter to compare the different ways God sees time.I explained it in my original post. There is only one word and way to suggest an unknown thousand of something but it's using a different word, not chilioi.
But why not?
I have trouble with that because it's also used in Peter to compare the different ways God sees time.
I’m not saying that it’s not normally used that way. “Beast” is normally referring to an animal. And with all of the references to the OT, and it’s use of 1000, it’s not a stretch to think that John, writing in Greek, would it use it in a similar fashion.It just isn't used that way. Every language is unique. Hebrew clearly uses a word for thousand in a symbolic way but Greek doesn't, at least when a word is used once. I showed how Greek uses a word twice to indicate an unknown number.
But he uses two exact time periods. The thousand years is a thousand years years, not ten thousand. The day is a day, not ten days.
I’m not saying that it’s not normally used that way. “Beast” is normally referring to an animal. And with all of the references to the OT, and it’s use of 1000, it’s not a stretch to think that John, writing in Greek, would it use it in a similar fashion.
So let me ask you this. Is there any way that it could be used metaphorically or symbolically?
Moses employs `a thousand' in Deuteronomy 7:9 saying, "Know therefore that the LORD thy God, he is God, the faithful God, which keepeth covenant and mercy with them that love him and keep his commandments to a thousand generations."
Is this a literal or figurative thousand?
1 Chronicles 16:13-17 also states, "O ye seed of Israel his servant, ye children of Jacob, his chosen ones. He is the LORD our God; his judgments are in all the earth. Be ye mindful always of his covenant; the word which he commanded to a thousand generations; Even of the covenant which he made with Abraham, and of his oath unto Isaac; And hath confirmed the same to Jacob for a law, and to Israel for an everlasting covenant."
Is this a literal or figurative thousand?
A thousand and ten thousand are used together in Psalm 91, saying, "Thou shalt not be afraid for the terror by night; nor for the arrow that flieth by day; Nor for the pestilence that walketh in darkness; nor for the destruction that wasteth at noonday. A thousand shall fall at thy side, and ten thousand at thy right hand; but it shall not come nigh thee" (vv 5-7).
Is this a literal or figurative thousand?
A similar contrast between these two numbers or ideas is seen in Deuteronomy 32:30, where a rhetorical question is asked, "How should one chase a thousand, and two put ten thousand to flight, except their Rock had sold them, and the Lord had shut them up?"
Is this a literal or figurative thousand?
Joshua affirms, on the same vein, in chapter 23, "One man of you shall chase a thousand: for the LORD your God, he it is that fighteth for you, as he hath promised you" (v 10).
Is this a literal or figurative thousand?
Isaiah the prophet similarly declares in Isaiah 30:17, "one thousand shall flee at the rebuke of one."
This incidentally is the only passage in Scripture that makes mention of the actual number "one thousand," albeit, the term is used to impress a spiritual truth.
Is this a literal or figurative thousand?
Psalm 84:9-10 says, "Behold, O God our shield, and look upon the face of thine anointed. For a day in thy courts is better than a thousand. I had rather be a doorkeeper in the house of my God, than to dwell in the tents of wickedness."
Is this a literal or figurative thousand?
The figure a thousand is also employed in Psalm 50:10-11 saying, "For every beast of the forest is mine, and the cattle upon a thousand hills. I know all the fowls of the mountains: and the wild beasts of the field are mine."
Is this a literal or figurative thousand?
Ecclesiastes 7:27-28 succinctly says, "one man among a thousand have I found."
Is this a literal or figurative thousand?
In the same vein, Job 33:23 declares, "If there be a messenger with him, an interpreter, one among a thousand, to shew unto man his uprightness."
Is this a literal or figurative thousand?
The distinct contrast between one and a thousand is again found in Job 9:2-3, where Job declares, "I know it is so of a truth: but how should man be just with God? If he will contend with him, he cannot answer him one of a thousand."
Is this a literal or figurative thousand?
Actually, the better question is the one I asked.I think the better question is has any number (cardinal number of something) in the NT Greek manuscripts ever been used metaphorically or symbolically? I have never seen any. Everytime a cardinal number of something is used, it's exactly that number. Like I said, 1260 is literally the word for exactly 1000 and the words/numbers for 260. The Greeks are known to have been advanced mathematicians and scientists. It makes sense that they did not have figurative uses for their numbers.
But the Hebrew culture uses the NUMBER 1000 figuratively when the context dictates it. This is apocalyptic literature - sort of the "Superhero Comic Book" of the ancient world - full of archetypal images and heroes we are meant to cheer on and villains to boo. It's loaded with symbolic images, animals, numbers, colours, and metaphors. It plays "compare and contrast" - the mark of the beast and what it does, and the mark of God given to believers foreheads in heaven. The two cities, Babylon and New Jerusalem. Compare and contrast. Boo and cheer.It just isn't used that way. Every language is unique.
Why? Who says? I know a few Phd theologians PERSONALLY who disagree with this - who have PUBLISHED peer-reviewed work on this.Hebrew clearly uses a word for thousand in a symbolic way but Greek doesn't, at least when a word is used once.
Really? Where did you 'show' this?I showed how Greek uses a word twice to indicate an unknown number.
Actually, the better question is the one I asked.
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