"On White Privilege"

[Ana the Ist]

From what I've read of the industry, people responsible for casting don't sit down and work out what a proportional level of various minorities would be and cast them accordingly.

Why should they? Their job is entertainment...not propaganda. Why should race determine that?

It would be interesting to see a version of the Bechdel test for people of colour. Has anyone created that yet?

I would hope not...I can't think of a more arbitrary, pointless, and ridiculous test.

My wife wouldn't pass that test in reality for more than maybe 20 days a year...and that's a high estimate.

When they reflect the make up of the population? So in America, that would be, what, one-third not-white? (And half of all roles women, but that brings us back to the Bechdel test and how many programmes fail that spectacularly...)

They reflect the writing of the script. Script writers (and this may shock you) actually just concern themselves with telling an entertaining story.

I haven't seen any of those (pop culture is actually not really my thing). However, if they were great movies which exclusively featured whites in lead roles... yes, I think they would have been better with more diverse casts. Not because white is bad but because exclusivity is bad!

I can't disagree more. I can only imagine if Straight Outta Compton was written with diversity in mind instead of telling a good (and accurate) story.

 

[Paidiske]

My wife wouldn't pass that test in reality for more than maybe 20 days a year...and that's a high estimate.

Your wife wouldn't talk to another woman, about something other than a man, more than twenty days a year? Does she go out of the house at all?

They reflect the writing of the script. Script writers (and this may shock you) actually just concern themselves with telling an entertaining story.

But isn't the problem that people assume that movies about women (or blacks, or whatever) are inherently less entertaining than movies about white men? Why is that?

 

[A2SG]

Paidiske said:
It would be interesting to see a version of the Bechdel test for people of colour. Has anyone created that yet?

I would hope not...I can't think of a more arbitrary, pointless, and ridiculous test.

My wife wouldn't pass that test in reality for more than maybe 20 days a year...and that's a high estimate.

Your wife wouldn't talk to another woman, about something other than a man, more than twenty days a year? Does she go out of the house at all?

I find that odd, too. My wife speaks to other women all the time, about any number of things. Granted, she's a journalist, but a lot of the time she's schmoozing, not working.

In my writing, I try to keep the Bechdel test in mind all the time, any time I see myself failing it, I feel I've neglected my characters.

-- A2SG, it really isn't a high bar to pass....which is kinda the point....

 

[Ana the Ist]

First, I never said you'd be doing the show in blackface. Having white performers taking over roles originated by black performers was the point of similarity, not makeup.

Second, there is still nothing new, groundbreaking or non-traditional about a TV show featuring an affluent white family, and the point was defying tradition.

Again, you asked for a black character...not one who's job or wealth was the point of contention.

Okay. Take away Dr. Huxtable's skin color. What makes him a "black character"?

I don't understand what you mean by this. Take away any black characters' skin color...what would make them black?

He's a successful doctor. I can name a dozen successful white doctors from TV right off the top of my head without breaking a sweat. So what is it about another successful doctor, who happens to be white, is groundbreaking or non-traditional?

You asked for a black character...

Hmmm.....could there be something about the role of James Bond that's significantly different than the role of Felix from the CIA? Different enough that casting a black man might be breaking with tradition?

Take your time, I'm sure it will come to you.

He's the lead...but there's plenty of leading black characters in movies. Denzel played a very Bond/Bourne-ish character recently.

So as far as the occupation, the lead, etc...these aren't breaking any new ground either. The only thing different is the color of Bond's skin....so the Huxtable comparison is apt.

This part: "It's good to see though, that you're just as in favor of consideration of whiteness for a role as you are blackness."

I've said, on several occasions, that when casting actors, race is one factor among many, and that it can be considered if race is relevant to the role, which is the case on occasion. I'm neither in favor of this fact, nor am I against it....I'm not a casting agent.

So what point you're trying to make with this statement is unclear.

Nothing more than what I said. If you disagree...don't be shy.

So you don't accept that it happens (kind of hard to deny, really), or you don't accept that it should happen?

Either way, whether or not you accept it doesn't change anything.

I don't know that it happens...it certainly shouldn't...at least not in the context that you seem to mean. I would imagine that it happens some of the time.

Hopefully, we will get to that point someday.



Let's get there first, then we'll see what we'll need.



Something we don't have at the present moment.

How do you know that isn't how it works now?

And casting Hiddleston as Bond won't do a single thing toward getting us closer to that goal. No matter how good his performance is.

Not that the James Bond franchise has to help that goal...but it'd be nice if it did.

I disagree. If equality means hiring the best actor, and Tom is the best actor, then hiring him is a sign of equality. Not that difficult to follow really.

Nope, and I challenge you to quote me as saying that.

So now you think race shouldn't be a consideration?

Good thing I never, at any point, suggested that Elba get the role just because he's black.

And yet people will...if other people keep going on about him getting the role to move racial equality forward or some such nonsense.

Then I challenge to find a single post of mine that advocates doing that.

If you're advocating that he get the role to "break tradition" because that's "progress"....what else am I to think?

Which is what I said. I just didn't ignore the fact that race is part of who we are as individuals.

But doesn't play any part in acting ability.

Race rarely is considered unless it's relevant. But, when race isn't a factor, the vast majority of times, the role will go to a white actor. White is seen as the default in this society, both by those who participate in casting actors, and by the audience.

Says who? Have they done studies on casting directors? Who comes up with this stuff?

This has changed, of course. TV shows are less resistant to the idea of casting people of color these days....in supporting roles, usually. It used to be that, for the star or lead character of a show to be anything other than white was extremely rare, something that practically only happened if the character's race is part of what the show's about. This has changed, of course, but it's still the exception, not the rule.

But it's getting better, which is progress.

At what point is it the "rule" and not the exception?

If only some well-known film or TV property, something with an iconic leading role that had, up to this point, only been played by white actors, were to have the courage to not shy away from hiring a talented, gifted actor who would be amazing in the role...and who just so happens to be something other than white.

Were that to happen, it would be groundbreaking, and it would defy tradition.

But we agree that if the better actor happens to be white...it should go to him...right?

No, you missed it. Your reply made that clear.

-- A2SG, but feel free to try again, if you'd care to....

If you think I "missed it" feel free to explain how.

 

[Ana the Ist]

Your wife wouldn't talk to another woman, about something other than a man, more than twenty days a year? Does she go out of the house at all?

Not often without me..no.

But isn't the problem that people assume that movies about women (or blacks, or whatever) are inherently less entertaining than movies about white men? Why is that?

I don't think that's the situation.

 

[rturner76]

Positions earned through merit. Your post assumed that they got those positions because of race and not because of merit. Your post doesn't simply want it to "work for us all" but work only for those who don't deserve the fruits of the system and those who are incapable of possessing it effectively.

System of oppression? Not even close!

It is white privilege that allows white males to continue to enjoy the "fruits of the system" while others are left out.

 

[Paidiske]

I don't think that's the situation.

Then why are white men so over-represented in television and movies?

 

[nightflight]

Then why are white men so over-represented in television and movies?

We rock?

 

[nightflight]

It is white privilege that allows white males to continue to enjoy the "fruits of the system" while others are left out.

Same thing in China. Seems Chinese people are overly represented in media there.

 

[Creech]

It is white privilege that allows white males to continue to enjoy the "fruits of the system" while others are left out.

Silly anti-white assumption.

Then why are white men so over-represented in television and movies?

Perhaps it's because whites are the majority of the audience and the strong majority of the people who see certain types of movies? Perhaps it's because whites are also more likely to have artistic and theater skills and merit? I think so.

 

[Paidiske]

Perhaps it's because whites are also more likely to have artistic and theater skills and merit? I think so.

And that, right there? That is blatant racism. Being white doesn't make someone a better actor.

 

[Ana the Ist]

Then why are white men so over-represented in television and movies?

Let's assume that's true for a moment...


Where does all this start? With the writers...

Sure, a casting director may decide to take a character and change their gender, sex, race...but largely good writing is recognized as good writing and these things aren't shifted a lot.

So say you're a typical, white, writer...you've written for a show or two, you wanna write a movie/novel/story whatever. If you're 20's-40's...you've probably been bombarded with the same messages as I have your entire life.

You don't understand black people. You don't get them, you don't know their struggles, their motivations, their experiences, etc. It's all completely foreign to you because you live in the land of white privilege! You've never experienced the things that they do...you're sheltered from their lives in some way. It doesn't matter if this message is true or not...it's the message they've been shouting your entire life.

You've also seen what happens when white writers write for black/minority characters. It's a lot of criticism for the character being too "stereotypical", or blatantly racist, etc. You've seen many writers to criticism for this. So what do you do?

Well, you write what you know...white people. You create white characters...place them in your story.

It turns out good and they want to do your script for t.v./movie/etc. Only then will it get to a casting director...who before the whole thing starts is looking to fill up a cast of what's written as almost entirely white characters.

So, you see, there's no "systemic racial bias" in the whole process at all. Just a bunch of writers who are damned if they do, damned if they don't. They get blamed if they don't put enough minorities into roles...they get blamed if they don't (correctly) understand the minorities they do put into roles.

Where does it start though? Well...it all starts with a group of people who see themselves, treat themselves, and argue that they are completely different from the rest of us. They focus on differences between race/class/etc all the time (like that guy in the theatre). If they want white writers to write more black characters...they basically have to just let them do it with a little less criticism.

Or you could go talk to Tyler Perry and find out why everything he writes is overwhelmingly filled with black characters.

 

[Paidiske]

That's a fair point. Maybe we need to do more to encourage diversity amongst writers as well.

But I'd argue that it's not just that people "see themselves" as "different from the rest of us." Clearly there are differences of experience. That's valid. (Maybe I get this because I'm a migrant, and so I understand what it's like to have misunderstood different experiences).

Maybe established writers can do more research and write stories which are based on other people's experiences, too. I'm sure it's been done well at times; can we not do more of it?

 

[Ana the Ist]

That's a fair point. Maybe we need to do more to encourage diversity amongst writers as well.

Perhaps...

Then again, I'm not aware of any barriers stopping black writers. If a black person doesn't see that as a career...that's really on them.

But I'd argue that it's not just that people "see themselves" as "different from the rest of us." Clearly there are differences of experience. That's valid. (Maybe I get this because I'm a migrant, and so I understand what it's like to have misunderstood different experiences).

Are their experiences that different? More to the point...are their viewpoints based upon those experiences valid?

Maybe established writers can do more research and write stories which are based on other people's experiences, too. I'm sure it's been done well at times; can we not do more of it?

Then they would be accused of "cultural appropriation". The accusations would be "look at this white man getting wealthy off black culture!"

 

[Paidiske]

I would have thought the biggest barrier - as with making a living from any creative pursuit - would be the need to earn enough money to live. Most writers start out doing something else and writing on the side, don't they? For people living in poverty, is it harder for the writing career to be given enough time and space to take off?

I don't know. Questions worth exploring, though.

 

[Creech]

And that, right there? That is blatant racism. Being white doesn't make someone a better actor.

lol

Different cultures holds different things as being more valuable or more prestigious.

 

[Ana the Ist]

I would have thought the biggest barrier - as with making a living from any creative pursuit - would be the need to earn enough money to live. Most writers start out doing something else and writing on the side, don't they? For people living in poverty, is it harder for the writing career to be given enough time and space to take off?

I don't know. Questions worth exploring, though.

You're not wrong...of course...but the funny thing is that you don't necessarily see white people having an easier journey. I can't mention how many white comedians, for example, would talk openly about their desperate poverty before getting a steady writing gig and a steady paycheck to go with it.

 

[A2SG]

Again, you asked for a black character...not one who's job or wealth was the point of contention.

I asked for an example of a black character that, if played by a white actor, would defy tradition. A TV show about a successful white doctor with a wife and kids doesn't defy tradition.

I don't understand what you mean by this. Take away any black characters' skin color...what would make them black?

Gee, I don't know. What is it that makes someone an individual? What makes Cliff Huxtable a different character than, say, J.J. Evans, George Jefferson or Geordi LaForge?

You asked for a black character...

That defies tradition if played by a white actor. What about a white Cliff Huxtable defies tradition, exactly?

He's the lead...

Ding ding ding ding!

but there's plenty of leading black characters in movies. Denzel played a very Bond/Bourne-ish character recently.

And I'm sure that character, whose name you can't remember, is just as iconic as James Bond.

So as far as the occupation, the lead, etc...these aren't breaking any new ground either. The only thing different is the color of Bond's skin....so the Huxtable comparison is apt.

Let's see.... a tv character played by exactly one actor in a single tv show (plus an appearance or two on its spin-off), compared to an iconic character that has spanned over 50 years in over a dozen novels and more than 24 films, who has spawned literally an entire genre of fiction and influenced more characters since than can be counted.

Yep, the two are exactly the same, no difference at all.

Nothing more than what I said. If you disagree...don't be shy.

What you said was unclear. But if you prefer to leave it that way, that's your choice.

I don't know that it happens...it certainly shouldn't...at least not in the context that you seem to mean. I would imagine that it happens some of the time.

I agree that race shouldn't be as much of a factor in casting as it usually is...but the problem isn't Hollywood. Until audiences are willing to accept leading men (or women) of all stripes, races and ethnicities, there will always be inequality in casting.

Fortunately, things have gotten better, but there is still a ceiling. Lead characters who aren't white are rare, unless the show/movie is about race, and it's even more pointed when we start talking about iconic characters. Why does James Bond have to be played by a white actor, just because he always has been? What about his character needs to be caucasian? Same can be said for Superman, Batman, even Spider-Man and Captain America. Who says these characters have to be white, just because they always have been?

If the goal is to hire the best actor for the role, and I agree that should be the goal, who's to say Denzel Washington can't be as good a Batman as Christian Bale, or Taye Diggs a far better Superman than Henry Cavill? But you know as well as I do, no one at Warner Brothers is going to consider either Washington or Diggs for the roles, or any actor who isn't caucasian.

How do you know that isn't how it works now?

Well, let's see.

Here's a link to an article about the top TV shows for last year, by ratings. The top 20 shows (excluding sports, news and reality shows) are:
The Big Bang Theory (twice!), NCIS, NCIS New Orleans, Empire, Madame Secretary, Criminal Minds, Blue Bloods, The Blacklist, Scorpion, Scandal, Hawaii 5-0.

Of these shows, only two have a lead played by an actor of color: Empire and Scandal. Arguably, Empire is about race, being about a hip-hop record label, but its themes do go beyond that (from what I hear, I don't watch it), but Scandal doesn't seem to be about race, so that's one seems solid.

Of the rest, The Big Bang Theory and Blue Bloods have no major actors of color, NCIS, NCIS New Orleans, Empire, Madame Secretary, Criminal Minds, The Blacklist, Scorpion and Hawaii 5-0 all have mostly caucasian casts, with one or two regular cast members of color.

Still want to claim we have racial equality in casting? Feel free to make your case.

I disagree. If equality means hiring the best actor, and Tom is the best actor, then hiring him is a sign of equality. Not that difficult to follow really.

If you want to claim that Hiddleston is a better actor than Idris Elba, then you're gonna have to find some way to prove that. Otherwise, I never claimed Hiddleston wasn't a good actor, nor that he wouldn't be good as Bond. All I said was that hiring him wouldn't be defying tradition regarding racial casting. That's all, and nothing more.

So now you think race shouldn't be a consideration?

I stand by what I said.

And yet people will...if other people keep going on about him getting the role to move racial equality forward or some such nonsense.

People can, and will, say whatever they want to, for whatever reason they want to. I'm only responsible for what I say.

If you're advocating that he get the role to "break tradition" because that's "progress"....what else am I to think?

I'm not advocating he get the role just because it breaks tradition, and I never did.

But doesn't play any part in acting ability.

Depends on the actor, really.

Says who? Have they done studies on casting directors? Who comes up with this stuff?

I came up with it, based on my own personal observation. I detailed some of it earlier in this post. If you feel you can refute my observations, feel free to.

t what point is it the "rule" and not the exception?

When there are more exceptions than not.

But we agree that if the better actor happens to be white...it should go to him...right?

I never said otherwise.

If you think I "missed it" feel free to explain how.

Seeing more people of color in prominent, leading roles will lead to even more, and give actors of color more opportunities. There are plenty of talented, amazing actors of color out there, and few roles are going to them, so it seems as if the same two or three actors are getting the vast majority of the few roles available. I'm simply saying we open the field more.

And the only way to do that, to show casting agents as well as audiences that there are many, many amazing actors of color available, is to make an effort to consider them for major roles, and not simply go with a caucasian by default.

Talented, gifted, amazing actors come in many different colors and ethnicities, and I, for one, would like to see more of them.

-- A2SG, that's the point you missed....

 

[nightflight]

I asked for an example of a black character that, if played by a white actor, would defy tradition. A TV show about a successful white doctor with a wife and kids doesn't defy tradition.

White Shaft. We could call the reboot, "Whaft".

 

[whatbogsends]

You asked for a black character...

I asked for an example of a black character that, if played by a white actor, would defy tradition. A TV show about a successful white doctor with a wife and kids doesn't defy tradition.

That is not at all what you asked. It may be what you shifted it to later in the conversation, but when Ana brought up Bill Cosby, it was in reference to this:

Let me put it this way: say you're casting the lead actor for a TV show. If you cast anyone other than a caucasian, the show becomes about that race. Tell you what, think of any TV show where the lead is played by someone who isn't caucasian and see if that show would be any different than if they cast, say, Ryan Reynolds in that role instead.

You asked for an example of a black character that if a white actor was cast instead of the black actor the show wouldn't be any different. You didn't bring up "defying tradition" in relation to this request until much later.