"On White Privilege"

[nightflight]

Pound on the table harder.

 

[nightflight]

He did not understand the term systemic racism, I told him to look up institutional racism, it's really simple. The definition of institutional racism is not an opinion. The fact that there is a reference to individuals and racism and not understanding what systemic means demonstrates he does not actually know the definition of the word. This could all be solved by simply typing "institutional racism" into a search engine, clicking the first link (likely Wikipedia), and reading the first sentence. That's it.

Ok, as long as you type in "Cultural Marxism".

 

[Ana the Ist]

Interesting.

On a side note, I find it troubling how many times you have loled in this exchange. I'm trying to figure out what is lol-worthy about racism and white privilege.

Sent from my SM-T810 using Tapatalk

I had to look back at my last lol to see what you're talking about. The idea that a suspect description of "he was black" or "he was white/hispanic/asian/etc." ....is amusing to me.

I'm a federal agent in a law enforcement position and I've heard probably thousands of suspect descriptions over the radio in my 10 years on duty....and not once, not even one time, have i ever heard a suspect description so pathetic. At the very least...you'd get a clothing description as well even if the suspects face was covered. Radio operators are trained to get that information because they know "he's black" is a useless description.

The only time a description that vague would come back would be if the suspect was in a vehicle and only their face was showing. In that situation though...the vehicle description would be included.

I'm not calling you a liar....I suppose it's possible that somewhere a police department is that incompetent. What city do your clients typically come from?

 

[A2SG]

I had to look back at my last lol to see what you're talking about. The idea that a suspect description of "he was black" or "he was white/hispanic/asian/etc." ....is amusing to me.

I'm a federal agent in a law enforcement position and I've heard probably thousands of suspect descriptions over the radio in my 10 years on duty....and not once, not even one time, have i ever heard a suspect description so pathetic. At the very least...you'd get a clothing description as well even if the suspects face was covered. Radio operators are trained to get that information because they know "he's black" is a useless description.

The only time a description that vague would come back would be if the suspect was in a vehicle and only their face was showing. In that situation though...the vehicle description would be included.

I'm not calling you a liar....I suppose it's possible that somewhere a police department is that incompetent. What city do your clients typically come from?

I'm from Boston. Google Chuck Stuart sometime.

-- A2SG, could tell a related joke about Larry Bird, but I probably shouldn't.....

 

[Ana the Ist]

He did not understand the term systemic racism, I told him to look up institutional racism, it's really simple. The definition of institutional racism is not an opinion. The fact that there is a reference to individuals and racism and not understanding what systemic means demonstrates he does not actually know the definition of the word. This could all be solved by simply typing "institutional racism" into a search engine, clicking the first link (likely Wikipedia), and reading the first sentence. That's it.

You gave me an example of an interaction between individuals. An asian police officer shot a black man. This is your example of "institutional racism". An asian police officer isn't an institution....he's an individual.

If there's something racist about the institution of law enforcement that led to the black man being shot....let's hear it.

Frankly, I don't see you being able to make that connection. "Institutional racism" in the police department would mean something like "they won't hire black people"....which doesn't seem to be the case.

 

[Ana the Ist]

I'm from Boston. Google Chuck Stuart sometime.

-- A2SG, could tell a related joke about Larry Bird, but I probably shouldn't.....

I don't see any connection to what I posted.

 

[A2SG]

I don't see any connection to what I posted.

You said: "...and not once, not even one time, have i ever heard a suspect description so pathetic. At the very least...you'd get a clothing description as well even if the suspects face was covered. Radio operators are trained to get that information because they know "he's black" is a useless description."

-- A2SG, the Stuart case is one reason why radio operators are trained to do that now.....

 

[nightflight]

-tulc (want's his shtick back)

 

[A2SG]

-tulc (want's his shtick back)

I've been doing the sig thing for as long as I've been here. Longer even, on other forums.

-- A2SG, didn't steal from tulc, he didn't steal from me....call it a case of great minds thinking alike....

 

[Ana the Ist]

Lots of things. Wanna discuss those things, or would you rather find a scapegoat and assign blame?

I'm more than willing to do the former, but I'm not interested in the latter.

I'd love to hear your ideas. Have at it. You're the first person I've heard to try to explain how white privilege isn't the result of white racists.

EXACTLY!!!!

(is there a way to make letters flash in bright neon lights here?)

My point exactly!!!!

This is a systemic problem, one that has nothing to do with whether or not an individual is racist!!!!

Wonderful. I don't understand what you mean by "systemic problem" if you think that it has nothing to do with individual cops being racist.

What do you think the "systemic problem" is that keeps leading to black men being disproportionately shot by police?

Kinda comes with the territory when your job entails you having the power to end someone's life. And as Stan Lee famously said, with great power COMES GREAT RESPONSIBILITY.

You realize that we're talking about humans...right? You know...humans that make mistakes? As long as police are human...mistakes will be made. We can agree on that, right? Or are you one of these people who will always view the police as a problem if they even make one mistake?

A point I've been trying to make since the start, I might add....

What is the cause?

Please! Let's do!!!

I've been tossing out possible reasons for things all throughout this thread that don't involve racism. They haven't been well received lol. What are your ideas?

Sure, let's look at that.

What do black people say when you ask them about that?

I'm not allowed to ask them that...it may be statistically true, but to suggest so is considered racist. Part of black privilege is the idea that only blacks are allowed to discuss problems within the black community. If you're white and try to do it...you're racist.

Maybe because that wouldn't be covered under a topic of "white privilege"?

Perhaps the issues are more related than they appear. Perhaps some of the solutions to "white privilege" can be found in that discussion.

But I do know, for a fact, that there are many people in black communities who are discussing that very thing with others in the community. As to why they're not discussing it with the rest of us....well, think about that a moment.

Because it would reduce the effectiveness of blaming racism?

If the problem is systemic, how does an individual changing his own behavior address the problem in the system?

I don't know that the problem is systemic. Let's consider perspective for a moment...

Is it possible that someone who is told that the world is racist against him, that the "system" is racist against him, that institutions are racist against him....will begin to see certain things as racist even when they aren't?

Is it possible that such a person could go through their whole life and only experience a few instances of genuine racism....and the rest of it was imagined?

Remember my friend, the surgeon, from earlier? How can he change his behavior to prevent himself from being stopped by police for no reason whatsoever?

-- A2SG, he's an excellent driver, and has never had a single accident, ever.....

I'm sure you believe your friend wholeheartedly....but I tend not to render an opinion until I've heard both sides first. I suspect that many of the times I was pulled over for no reason it was because I was in a speed trap around the time bars let out 2-3am in a college town. Sure, I wasn't speeding...but the cops were probably just trying to get lucky. Perhaps similar circumstances were at play with your friend.

 

[Ana the Ist]

You said: "...and not once, not even one time, have i ever heard a suspect description so pathetic. At the very least...you'd get a clothing description as well even if the suspects face was covered. Radio operators are trained to get that information because they know "he's black" is a useless description."

-- A2SG, the Stuart case is one reason why radio operators are trained to do that now.....

You said: "...and not once, not even one time, have i ever heard a suspect description so pathetic. At the very least...you'd get a clothing description as well even if the suspects face was covered. Radio operators are trained to get that information because they know "he's black" is a useless description."

-- A2SG, the Stuart case is one reason why radio operators are trained to do that now.....

"He's black" was the only description given? I didn't read that in the link you provided.

 

[A2SG]

I'd love to hear your ideas. Have at it. You're the first person I've heard to try to explain how white privilege isn't the result of white racists.

Others have tried as well.

There are a lot of things that cause the problems we have in this country as regards race, but the causes aren't as important as what we do about the problem from this point forward. We have systemic problems as regards race in this country, and the only way to deal with them is to recognize that they exist, and make a concerted effort to not follow the same patterns.

Wonderful. I don't understand what you mean by "systemic problem" if you think that it has nothing to do with individual cops being racist.

You pointed it out yourself: "black police shoot black suspects at the same rate as white police."

The problem is within the system (hence "systemic") not with individuals.

If cops fall into a pattern of seeing the world in terms of "good guys" vs. "bad guys," ie "us" vs "them," and if "us" is defined by society as white people and "them" is defined by society as black people, then that perception becomes ingrained into everyone who is part of the system. That's why a black cop can view other black people as "them", because he's part of "us."

It goes beyond individual opinions and becomes a systemic thing. The only way to fight the perception is to realize that you're seeing things in a binary way (black or white, us or them) and try to see beyond that.

What do you think the "systemic problem" is that keeps leading to black men being disproportionately shot by police?

I think it's a complicated issue, but to simplify it for a moment, if more black people are being arrested than whites, the assumption is that black people are more likely to be criminals than white people. It's a flawed conclusion, but it happens.

You realize that we're talking about humans...right? You know...humans that make mistakes? As long as police are human...mistakes will be made. We can agree on that, right? Or are you one of these people who will always view the police as a problem if they even make one mistake?

If that one mistake means someone's death, yeah.

I think that when a cop makes a mistake, the consequences can be far, far greater than if anyone else makes a mistake. If a switchboard operator misdirects a call, some people are inconvenienced for a few moments; if a cop misreads a situation and shoots someone who is unarmed and innocent, a life is lost. Forever.

Cops should be held to a far, far greater standard because they have a far, far greater responsibility.

What is the cause?

There isn't one cause. Lots of factors are at play here.

I've been tossing out possible reasons for things all throughout this thread that don't involve racism. They haven't been well received lol. What are your ideas?

I've thrown in a few here and there. But, as I said, I'm more interested in how we deal with the problems going forward, less interested in finding fault with how we got here.

I'm not allowed to ask them that...it may be statistically true, but to suggest so is considered racist.

I guess it depends on how you ask the question, really. Assuming that all black men who are shot by police are resisting arrest or shooting back may be part of the reason why you've gotten the reception you say you have.

Part of black privilege is the idea that only blacks are allowed to discuss problems within the black community. If you're white and try to do it...you're racist.

Think about that a minute:

"only blacks are allowed to discuss problems within the black community"

Let me put this a different way, to see if I can illustrate the problem here: How receptive would you, personally, be to me telling you about the problems you and your spouse are having?

Perhaps the issues are more related than they appear. Perhaps some of the solutions to "white privilege" can be found in that discussion.

What bearing do the privileges white people have in our society have on the problems within the black community, exactly?

Because it would reduce the effectiveness of blaming racism?

Um, no.

I don't know that the problem is systemic. Let's consider perspective for a moment...

Is it possible that someone who is told that the world is racist against him, that the "system" is racist against him, that institutions are racist against him....will begin to see certain things as racist even when they aren't?

Sure.

Is it possible that such a person could go through their whole life and only experience a few instances of genuine racism....and the rest of it was imagined?

Sure.

It's also possible that someone who doesn't experience racism in their daily lives (as many of us who are white don't) can dismiss the effects systemic racism has on those who do.

People in that situation are also fully capable of seeing certain things as not racist even when they are.

So it goes both ways, really.

I'm sure you believe your friend wholeheartedly....but I tend not to render an opinion until I've heard both sides first. I suspect that many of the times I was pulled over for no reason it was because I was in a speed trap around the time bars let out 2-3am in a college town. Sure, I wasn't speeding...but the cops were probably just trying to get lucky. Perhaps similar circumstances were at play with your friend.

Ask other black people if they've had similar experiences. Then ask some white people the same question. See what happens.

-- A2SG, feel free to not take my word for any of this...or my surgeon friend's either.....

 

[nightflight]

I think that when a cop makes a mistake, the consequences can be far, far greater than if anyone else makes a mistake. If a switchboard operator misdirects a call, some people are inconvenienced for a few moments; if a cop misreads a situation and shoots someone who is unarmed and innocent, a life is lost. Forever.

Cops should be held to a far, far greater standard because they have a far, far greater responsibility.

Cops should go on strike to remind you how close you are to the jungle.

-nightflight; bringing a dark reality to the sheltered.

 

[A2SG]

"He's black" was the only description given? I didn't read that in the link you provided.

"According to Stuart's subsequent statement, a black gunman with a raspy voice forced his way into their car at a stoplight,"

-- A2SG, close enough.....

 

[A2SG]

Cops should go on strike to remind you how close you are to the jungle.

-nightflight; bringing a dark reality to the sheltered.

You don't agree that cops should be more responsible with the authority, and power, they wield?

-- A2SG, or should they be given carte blanche.....

 

[A2SG]

I know a cop who told me once that every time he takes his weapon out, he tries to imagine his family, his daughter specifically, on the other side of it. That way, he doesn't shoot unless he's absolutely, 100% dead certain he has to, and there is no other alternative whatsoever.

-- A2SG, he's proud to say he's never discharged his weapon except at the gun range.....

 

[nightflight]

I know a cop who told me once that every time he takes his weapon out, he tries to imagine his family, his daughter specifically, on the other side of it. That way, he doesn't shoot unless he's absolutely, 100% dead certain he has to, and there is no other alternative whatsoever.

-- A2SG, he's proud to say he's never discharged his weapon except at the gun range.....

 

[Ana the Ist]

Others have tried as well.

There are a lot of things that cause the problems we have in this country as regards race, but the causes aren't as important as what we do about the problem from this point forward. We have systemic problems as regards race in this country, and the only way to deal with them is to recognize that they exist, and make a concerted effort to not follow the same patterns.

I suppose I should just take whoever's word for it then when they cry "White privilege!". We don't know the cause...then how are we supposed to know if something is actually white privilege or not? How can we avoid it in the future if we don't know what the source of the problem is?

Do you actually read what you're writing before you post it? First you say we don't need solutions...that it's just important everyone acknowledges it. Now we don't need to understand the cause either.

At this point, I'd rather you just be honest and say it's the fault of white people. That, or admit that we can't possibly identify a problem that has no apparent causes or solutions.

You pointed it out yourself: "black police shoot black suspects at the same rate as white police."

The problem is within the system (hence "systemic") not with individuals.

You say that like it's an answer. How do you know it's a "systemic" problem if you don't know the cause? How do you even know it's a problem?

Telling me it's systematic is just adding an adjective to the problem. Global warming is a problem.....what's the cause? A: It's an environmental problem.

Do you see how just saying "it's systemic" doesn't bring us any closer to a cause or solution? What system are we talking about? What is it about the system that causes white privilege?

If cops fall into a pattern of seeing the world in terms of "good guys" vs. "bad guys," ie "us" vs "them," and if "us" is defined by society as white people and "them" is defined by society as black people, then that perception becomes ingrained into everyone who is part of the system. That's why a black cop can view other black people as "them", because he's part of "us."

Is that what you think? That black cops suddenly become racist against blacks?

What if black parents teach their kids that cops are racist and will try to oppress them or frame them at every chance they get. Suppose after years of this narrative being repeated over and over...young black men see cops as them (bad) and their criminal friends as us (good). That way, when a young black man eventually confronts the police...regardless of why...he decides to attack them, shoot at them, or otherwise resist.

It goes beyond individual opinions and becomes a systemic thing. The only way to fight the perception is to realize that you're seeing things in a binary way (black or white, us or them) and try to see beyond that.

Are you describing the people who are the cause of white privilege or the people who complain about white privilege here?

I think it's a complicated issue, but to simplify it for a moment, if more black people are being arrested than whites, the assumption is that black people are more likely to be criminals than white people. It's a flawed conclusion, but it happens.

How do you know it's a flawed conclusion?

Studies were done showing that blacks were imprisoned for violent crimes at a rate 4 times higher than you would expect from their relative population size. Study after study tried to pin down where the racism was occurring...but never quite figured it out.

Then someone had the idea of figuring out which violent crimes the victims likely got a good look at their assailant...attempted murder, robbery, assault...things like that. Guess what? Blacks were identified as perpetrators at 4 times the rate of whites! Nothing systemic there except for the high rate of violent crimes committed by blacks.

If that one mistake means someone's death, yeah.

Lol is this a serious response? Sarcasm?

If you're serious, then you should be ignored. Cops are people...people will make mistakes. Occasionally, that means the wrong person dies...but it doesn't mean we have a problem with our police.

I think that when a cop makes a mistake, the consequences can be far, far greater than if anyone else makes a mistake. If a switchboard operator misdirects a call, some people are inconvenienced for a few moments; if a cop misreads a situation and shoots someone who is unarmed and innocent, a life is lost. Forever.

Depends on the job. The mistakes made by bankers that led to the 2008 recession destroyed far more lives than any cops did that decade.

Cops should be held to a far, far greater standard because they have a far, far greater responsibility.

And they are. When was the last time your job was scrutinized by the media? Ever have the Dept of Justice come to your work and go over everything you've ever done at work with a fine-toothed comb? Ever hear of Darren Wilson? That cop who shot Michael Brown? The guy who spent 5 years serving his community, was forced to fight for his life, and ended up killing a man in self-defense? He had to resign from the police, and move away because of the death threats. The same community he served was willing to lie to see him go to jail or worse.

There isn't one cause. Lots of factors are at play here.



I've thrown in a few here and there. But, as I said, I'm more interested in how we deal with the problems going forward, less interested in finding fault with how we got here.

Well, let's pretend that this is a conversation about a problem and some of us are actually interested in things like...

1. Is this really a problem? How can we know it's a problem?
2. What's the cause of the problem?
3. What are some solutions to the problem?

It's not a conversation if one side (the side which keeps bringing up white privilege) only wants everyone to acknowledge it and thinks that is somehow going to magically fix things.

I guess it depends on how you ask the question, really. Assuming that all black men who are shot by police are resisting arrest or shooting back may be part of the reason why you've gotten the reception you say you have.

I didn't say "all black men"...I said there's a pattern. Last year police were assaulted some 50,000+ times....and would you like to guess which racial group attacked the police at a disproportionately higher rate? Yep....blacks. Do you think that might have some slight bearing on why they get shot at a higher rate than whites?

Let's have a little thought exercise....

Suppose for one year, blacks complied with everything police asked of them...even things they found questionable. They never resisted arrest, never assaulted police, never shot at the cops. Do you think the number of blacks shot by police would plummet? Stay the same? Decrease slightly?

Think about that a minute:

"only blacks are allowed to discuss problems within the black community"

Let me put this a different way, to see if I can illustrate the problem here: How receptive would you, personally, be to me telling you about the problems you and your spouse are having?

That would be pretty messed up. It would be more offensive if you were to suggest that the problems that my spouse and I were having were somehow the cause of your problems. It would be even more offensive if upon looking into it, I found out the problems that you were having were actually a result of the way you and your spouse treated each other...even though you wanted to blame it on me and my spouse.

See how that works? Even you think it's wrong for whites to tell blacks "hey, you need to fix these things in your community"....but you have no problem with them saying that to whites.

What bearing do the privileges white people have in our society have on the problems within the black community, exactly?

Isn't that what this thread is about? The color of band-aids apparently.

It's also possible that someone who doesn't experience racism in their daily lives (as many of us who are white don't) can dismiss the effects systemic racism has on those who do.

People in that situation are also fully capable of seeing certain things as not racist even when they are.

So it goes both ways, really.

I'm white and I experience racism every day.

Ask other black people if they've had similar experiences. Then ask some white people the same question. See what happens.

-- A2SG, feel free to not take my word for any of this...or my surgeon friend's either.....

I don't...even drs lie about racism.

 

[A2SG]

I suppose I should just take whoever's word for it then when they cry "White privilege!".

Or you could, I dunno, try and see it from their perspective and see if anything would be different.

Just a thought....

We don't know the cause...then how are we supposed to know if something is actually white privilege or not?

The cause isn't as important as recognizing it when you see it, and trying to look past it. Think of it this way: do firefighters try and determine the cause of a fire before they know if it's a fire or not, or do they just recognize it when they see it, and deal with it?

How can we avoid it in the future if we don't know what the source of the problem is?

"Hmm....how would this situation before me be different if the people involved were of a different race? Would the way I approach it be any different? If so, maybe this time, I'll try to handle it a little differently."

Why the approach might have been different isn't that important, really. What you do going forward matters more.

Do you actually read what you're writing before you post it?

Yup.

First you say we don't need solutions...

When did I say that?

that it's just important everyone acknowledges it. Now we don't need to understand the cause either.

Here's what I said earlier:

Maybe, just possibly, we should look at this not as an "attack" but as a way to see the problem first.

Because once we see the problem, then we can address it. If we can't even agree that there is a problem, how can we find a solution to it?

Seeing the problem, recognizing that it exists, and finding a way to make things better for everyone going forward, that's what I've always been talking about. I've never made a big deal out of the causes, because I'm not all that interested in assigning blame anywhere.

At this point, I'd rather you just be honest and say it's the fault of white people. That, or admit that we can't possibly identify a problem that has no apparent causes or solutions.

Why should I admit that when I've been going out of my way all this time to say the exact opposite?

We CAN identify the problem and we CAN find solutions. But as to the causes, while it may be useful as a way to see how we got to where we are, they simply aren't as important as the other stuff.

You say that like it's an answer. How do you know it's a "systemic" problem if you don't know the cause?

In a similar way to how I know a house is on fire even if I don't know what caused it.

How do you even know it's a problem?

Because I see it happening. I listen when people who have experienced it firsthand talk about it, and I recognize it when I see myself following preconceptions and assumptions without giving it thought beforehand.

Telling me it's systematic is just adding an adjective to the problem. Global warming is a problem.....what's the cause? A: It's an environmental problem.

Do you see how just saying "it's systemic" doesn't bring us any closer to a cause or solution? What system are we talking about? What is it about the system that causes white privilege?

The system is society. These preconceptions are present in all aspects of it. Something as benign as band-aids was presented as an example: flesh color = white. In the US, the default is assumed to be caucasian. If someone is anything other than caucasian (specifically, white christian heterosexual male), then that difference becomes an issue.

Let me put it this way: say you're casting the lead actor for a TV show. If you cast anyone other than a caucasian, the show becomes about that race. Tell you what, think of any TV show where the lead is played by someone who isn't caucasian and see if that show would be any different than if they cast, say, Ryan Reynolds in that role instead.

It isn't that casting agents are actively trying to avoid casting blacks or asians or hispanics, a large part is that audiences expect it, too. Friends would not have been the show it was if they'd cast Dave Chappelle instead of Matthew Perry. And different still if they'd hired George Lopez or Ken Jeong.

It isn't any individuals fault that these preconceptions exist, but they do exist, and they exist across the strata of our society. They are systemic, part of the system itself.

No one's fault. But everyone's responsibility going forward.

Is that what you think? That black cops suddenly become racist against blacks?

No, it isn't. In fact, that's the exact opposite of what I said.

What if black parents teach their kids that cops are racist and will try to oppress them or frame them at every chance they get. Suppose after years of this narrative being repeated over and over...young black men see cops as them (bad) and their criminal friends as us (good). That way, when a young black man eventually confronts the police...regardless of why...he decides to attack them, shoot at them, or otherwise resist.

That's part of it, yeah. Distrust builds between the two, to the point where it doesn't matter where it came from, it just exists and feeds off itself.

How do we end the cycle? By recognizing that the assumptions are there, and trying everything we can do to dispel those assumptions and not act on them any more. Yes, this means that the black community needs to trust the police more...but it also means the police need to trust the black community more and not assume the person before them is guilty automatically because they're black.

Everyone needs to be involved.

Are you describing the people who are the cause of white privilege or the people who complain about white privilege here?

I'm talking about everyone.

How do you know it's a flawed conclusion?

Logic. Just because some, or even most of any group is something, it does not follow that all of that group are that thing.

Studies were done showing that blacks were imprisoned for violent crimes at a rate 4 times higher than you would expect from their relative population size. Study after study tried to pin down where the racism was occurring...but never quite figured it out.

Perhaps because it goes beyond overt racism. And this illustrates why trying to find a cause isn't as important as trying to find a way to change the pattern that society has fallen into.

Then someone had the idea of figuring out which violent crimes the victims likely got a good look at their assailant...attempted murder, robbery, assault...things like that. Guess what? Blacks were identified as perpetrators at 4 times the rate of whites! Nothing systemic there except for the high rate of violent crimes committed by blacks.

Except that it is systemic. If a group is told something, time and time again over a long period of time, changes are they'll start believing it, and even embody that idea whether they intend to or not.

Look at it this way: when such assumptions exist, no matter how hard an individual tries to defy that stereotype, they are still seen in that light regardless of their actions. Which makes it harder still to dispel the stereotype, to the point where many may just give up trying and wind up with the attitude that, if this is what they expect, why bother trying any more?

This is why individuals changing their own behavior isn't going to solve the problems of race in this country. It's bigger than any one individual, so the solutions need to be bigger, as well.

Lol is this a serious response? Sarcasm?

Actually, that wasn't sarcastic.

If you're serious, then you should be ignored. Cops are people...people will make mistakes. Occasionally, that means the wrong person dies...but it doesn't mean we have a problem with our police.

Yeah, it does. If the wrong person dies, that needs to mean something. It shouldn't ever be a commonplace thing, it should be the exception, and a rare one at that.

Does this mean cops have to take extra, extra care to make sure they get things right BEFORE they start shooting?

Yes.

They have the power of life and death literally in their hands. They need to be extra responsible with that power.

Depends on the job. The mistakes made by bankers that led to the 2008 recession destroyed far more lives than any cops did that decade.

Sure. The greater the power one has, the more responsible they need to be with it.

Just like Stan said.

And they are. When was the last time your job was scrutinized by the media? Ever have the Dept of Justice come to your work and go over everything you've ever done at work with a fine-toothed comb? Ever hear of Darren Wilson? That cop who shot Michael Brown? The guy who spent 5 years serving his community, was forced to fight for his life, and ended up killing a man in self-defense? He had to resign from the police, and move away because of the death threats. The same community he served was willing to lie to see him go to jail or worse.

Which proves my point. Cops need to be super responsible considering the power at their hands. Look at the outcome of this event and consider that whether or not Wilson made a mistake doesn't change anything that happened afterward.

Well, let's pretend that this is a conversation about a problem and some of us are actually interested in things like...

1. Is this really a problem? How can we know it's a problem?
2. What's the cause of the problem?
3. What are some solutions to the problem?

It's not a conversation if one side (the side which keeps bringing up white privilege) only wants everyone to acknowledge it and thinks that is somehow going to magically fix things.

Sigh.

I didn't say "all black men"...I said there's a pattern. Last year police were assaulted some 50,000+ times....and would you like to guess which racial group attacked the police at a disproportionately higher rate? Yep....blacks. Do you think that might have some slight bearing on why they get shot at a higher rate than whites?

Quite possibly.

Now, we can spend the next couple of decades trying to figure out the cause for that, or we can try and change our attitudes today and going forward so the pattern doesn't continue.

Wanna guess which one I'm going for here?

Let's have a little thought exercise....

Suppose for one year, blacks complied with everything police asked of them...even things they found questionable. They never resisted arrest, never assaulted police, never shot at the cops. Do you think the number of blacks shot by police would plummet? Stay the same? Decrease slightly?

Who knows. I do know that there are many cases where a black man didn't resist arrest or assault a police officer or shoot at anyone and they still died, so the problem obviously isn't just with black men.

How about this: we go along with your idea IF the police also treated every citizen exactly the same, with no regard for race or anything else whatsoever. If both sides agreed to change, then maybe we'd get somewhere.

Then, when we've solved that, we can move on to other areas where this is also a problem.

That would be pretty messed up.

My point exactly.

It would be more offensive if you were to suggest that the problems that my spouse and I were having were somehow the cause of your problems. It would be even more offensive if upon looking into it, I found out the problems that you were having were actually a result of the way you and your spouse treated each other...even though you wanted to blame it on me and my spouse.

Which is why assigning blame isn't very productive.

See how that works? Even you think it's wrong for whites to tell blacks "hey, you need to fix these things in your community"....but you have no problem with them saying that to whites.

I haven't done that.

Isn't that what this thread is about? The color of band-aids apparently.

That was an example, nothing more.

I'm white and I experience racism every day.

In what way?

I don't...even drs lie about racism.

Why assume they're lying?

-- A2SG, and I'm still not talking about racism here, but a broader, deeper issue...

 

[whatbogsends]

You can look at the past history and statistics/data. If there's qualified black candidates available, and a given company isn't hiring any of them, then that's indicative of a problem revolving around race. It may be outright racism, or it could be something more subtle.

Outright racism: Mary in HR, who is the first line in resume sceening, throws away resumes that seem to be from black candidates.

More subtle : They are recruiting at job fairs at colleges that are pretty much all white, because that's where people in HR went to school, while ignoring similar schools that have more black kids, because the people in HR are white and don't know about these schools. An affirmative action policy would encourage a company that has a disproportional racial representation to increase focus on recruiting from where they would get more of the unrepresented race, like doing job fairs at schools that are made of a majority black students.

Nobody expects the labor market to be a perfect reflection of the population as a whole, so you can't expect a company to match that make up. But you can look at the available labor and see what a company's make up actually is and encourage it to match it.

Why should the makeup of any given company be a reflection of the bare demographics of the labor market, without a deeper assessment of the skills and capabilities of that labor group?

I posed essentially this question, and showed why it is a flawed premise, in post #501 in this thread, and not 1 person has even attempted to answer or address it.

There are some areas in which disproportional representation are evident and abundant and no one is making the case that it is due to a racial bias. That is because in those areas, the bias is in favor of minorities. However, in every instance in which minorities are "under" represented, we are told it is because of bias, either intentional or unintentional.

I again submit, that it is an absurd proposition that any given field should be a direct representation of the population, as different demographics have characteristics which would make them more or less suited to work in that field.

That isn't to say, there can't be a racial bias in addition to the natural differences would predict, but to lay all divergence between demographic distribution between a particular business or field and the workforce at the feet of racial bias doesn't help to accurately assess and resolve the problem.