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"On White Privilege"

A2SG

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The problem I have with threads like these is they aren't discussions about advantages or disadvantages...privileges or whatever the opposite of privileges are....they're just a long soapbox polemic about blaming whites.

And yet, no one is "blaming whites" here.

No. One.

So if you'd kindly stop assuming that to be the case, I'd appreciate if you'd listen to what is actually being said, so you can join in and discuss the issue that's actually being discussed.

-- A2SG, unless you'd rather continue going out of your way to miss the point over and over again......
 
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dzheremi

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Wow...was it you who i already explained this to once when you totally missed my point the first time? Tell me if any of this sounds familiar...

The incredibly rude tone is familiar, but I don't know if you are referring to me or not.

We all have advantages and disadvantages. All of us. Black, whites, disabled, beautiful, dumb, etc.

True enough.

The problem I have with threads like these is they aren't discussions about advantages or disadvantages...privileges or whatever the opposite of privileges are....they're just a long soapbox polemic about blaming whites.

That's how you see them, sure.

It's never a discussion about how you should pick yourself up, recognize your disadvantages, and work that much harder to overcome them.

How can someone 'pick themselves up' from other people's biases against them due to something that they have no control over? Did Rosa Parks work really hard to earn her seat at the front of the bus, or did she recognize that the system she and other black people had to live under was inherently unjust and do her part to challenge it directly? I don't know where this idea that we've all just got to pull ourselves up comes from, but it doesn't actually work in a lot of situations. No amount of working hard and achieving is going magically undo other people's perception of you based on your skin color.

Nope, it's a one-way complaint-fest about how your problems are someone else's fault (by which I mean whites) and everyone has to change so you don't ever have to find yourself working harder to overcome these disadvantages.

So...disadvantaged people who actually recognize that they are disadvantaged in ways that can't be fixed just by working extra hard are just being lazy? Hmm. While it's true that a great deal of progress in a person's life may be made by hard work, I am not aware of any amount or type of work that you can do that allows you to work your way out of not being white (and like Pakicetus just posted, they shouldn't have to, because it's inherently unjust that the current situation is as it is). So I'm going to have to disagree with you here.

A discussion would include an exchange of ideas. Ideas like "is what you perceive as racism actually always racism?"....and "can we actually attribute some spurious statistics to show that genuine racism is occurring?"

Yes, and these things have been discussed several times in this thread. People have disagreed with each other, but that does not mean that no exchanges of ideas have occurred. Quite the opposite, if you think about it.

Go back a few posts and take a look at how my personal experiences with the police got immediately dismissed since they didn't neatly fit into the narrative of "white privilege". I didn't even have time to mention how only one of the times I was pulled over that the cop was black...it would seem that all those other cops forgot about my white privilege.

If I recall correctly, the point that was made in response to your post about being pulled over was that white people will jump in with stories of being pulled over, but not with stories about all the other things that cops do to black people, because those things don't happen to white people (or if they do, they don't talk about them in threads like this, which you'd think they would if they wanted to make the point that treatment by police isn't indicative of privilege). How exactly is that negating what happened to you? It seems like it's explicitly affirming that yes, you do get pulled over. But you seem to be mischaracterizing replies as "ignoring what happens to you since you're white" when that's not what they're actually about.

I get that you're offended...I do. You're right that your obstacles as a disabled person aren't the same obstacles that a black person faces. How dare I suggest that the problem of not being able to enter a building without a ramp might be more significant than the name of a particular color of band-aid? Where's my head? I'm willing to bet that employers practically throw jobs at you since you're not named Jamal...right?

You may get that I am not pleased right now, but I don't know that this means that you've actually understood my point. My point was not "how dare you suggest life is difficult for disabled people", but rather that to pit one people against another like that smacks of manipulation of the very real difficulties that disabled people face in order to make an ideological point against others. I don't appreciate it, and I don't want it to go by unchallenged. If people want to make some point about Band-Aid colors, why should I care? Because the problems of my own life are more important to me than that? That's fine in and of itself (I wouldn't expect anyone else to take on my problems, either, when they have their own), but I would not want anyone to think that just because I can't relate to something as a matter of personal experience that it therefore doesn't matter. If it matters to them, they should talk about it, if they want to. Y'know, I see lots of Syrian refugees on TV standing in lines at the borders of various European countries, and my first thought isn't "Geez! Look at those people standing there! I can't do that! Quit whining, refugees...you don't know how good you have it!" My problems do not dwarf other peoples' just because they're mine, and since I really have no way of knowing how difficult it is to be black in America (or a Syrian refugee in Europe, or any of these other things that I'm not), I'd rather listen to what people have to say about that than to react as though any amount of attention given to other people's problems is an affront to my existence as a disabled person. It's really not.

Can you drive a car? If you can, I wouldn't advertise that fact...you wouldn't want it to be compared with the hardships of driving while black.

Ughhh. No, I cannot, and now you are confirming to me that you don't actually understand anything I've written, seeing as how you are content to use what I've shared here in an attempt to get you to think about what you write to instead take a cheap shot at other people in the thread, whose words you also apparently don't understand.

The cyclical nature of this conversation, along with the ever-nastier and more low-down approach to making points in it, is very, very tiring.
 
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Ana the Ist

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That isn't true. I haven't read all the posts in this thread, but none of the posts I've seen "blame whites" for anything. Many white people aren't racist and don't contribute to white privilege.

Really? I'm reading a lot of posts that speaks about it being an injustice towards blacks...who's responsible for this injustice? Other posts describe it as a result of a racist institution/system created by whites. Yet whenever I say that people are blaming whites...I get responses like yours. Well then you tell me....who's responsible for white privilege?


Minorities should work harder to overcome their disadvantages. They just shouldn't have to, because discrimination against minorities is deeply unjust.

At some point though...it's unavoidable. Once you get past that point, the only way to rectify it is to hold down one group so you can lift up another.


You haven't shown any sign that you care about that, since you keep trying to deny it, minimize its importance, or change the subject to something else, like the number of blacks you think fit racial stereotypes.

No one cares about the discrimination against me as a white man. It's not a topic. If I suggest it...I'm a racist. Do you see the irony here? Also, the entire focus of the conversation is blaming whites. A single black man is shot by a white cop...completely justifiably...and blacks organize to protest, loot, and riot. Meanwhile, thousands of black men will be victimized and killed by black men in their own communities....and not one protest gets organized. Why? Why should I be so concerned about the black communities' concerns about my community when they're comfortable with anything and everything in theirs? It stinks of hypocrisy and yet I'm supposed to act like it's a valid reason for me to examine my "privileged
.

You've admitted to me in the past that you're aware of the evidence for white privilege and that you believe it exists. Yet now you're acting like you don't understand it at all, and arguing against absurd straw men. Do you really believe the idea that black people are discriminated against implies disabled people aren't disadvantaged or employers are "practically throwing jobs at" everyone who isn't named Jamal?

I believe many kinds of privilege. Some might be more advantageous than others in certain circumsta
nces. Some are hardly noticable
 
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A2SG

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A single black man is shot by a white cop...completely justifiably...and blacks organize to protest, loot, and riot. Meanwhile, thousands of black men will be victimized and killed by black men in their own communities....and not one protest gets organized. Why? Why should I be so concerned about the black communities' concerns about my community when they're comfortable with anything and everything in theirs? It stinks of hypocrisy and yet I'm supposed to act like it's a valid reason for me to examine my "privileged

Two points here:

1. There is no "single black man shot by a white cop." There are thousands. Over time. A LONG time. That's kinda the point, that it isn't an anomaly, it's a pattern.

2. Shouldn't cops be held to a higher standard than everyone else, especially when it comes to protecting the community?

Sure, violence within the black community is a problem, and no one is suggesting we ignore it; but the problem of cops shooting unarmed black men more than they do any other group is a systemic problem, and it needs to be addressed as well.

It shouldn't be one or the other.

Thing is, these two problems are different, and need to be dealt with in different ways. Conflating them only serves to ignore the issues involved.

-- A2SG, and please note how I'm not blaming "whites" for these problems...it goes deeper than that.....
 
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rturner76

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So you want white men to start having it a little worse?

Not at all I want there to be no more advantage for any one group of people. So the treatment of white men shouldn't get worse, as a culture we should start to treat people as equals. Our country is getting better and better there is just still some things that have been societal norms that were set up in the past that are still in place that need to change.
 
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rturner76

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Doesn't affirmative action alone more than make up for the band-aids?

White people see affirmative action as giving minorities jobs they didn't earn and that is not the case. Affirmative action is so that companies don't hire 100% white males and pass over qualified people of color and women all together. It is not set up to put unqualified minorities and women in jobs they don't earn. That's a myth.
 
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Chesterton

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White people see affirmative action as giving minorities jobs they didn't earn and that is not the case. Affirmative action is so that companies don't hire 100% white males and pass over qualified people of color and women all together. It is not set up to put unqualified minorities and women in jobs they don't earn. That's a myth.

I didn't say anything about the beneficiaries of racial quotas being less qualified, although that certainly could be the case. In fact it would seem to logically have to be the case in some number of cases. However, just assuming job applicants are exactly equally qualified, and the black person gets the job because they're black, isn't that a privilege which more than compensates for the trivia mentioned in the OP?
 
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rturner76

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I didn't say anything about the beneficiaries of racial quotas being less qualified, although that certainly could be the case. In fact it would seem to logically have to be the case in some number of cases. However, just assuming job applicants are exactly equally qualified, and the black person gets the job because they're black, isn't that a privilege which more than compensates for the trivia mentioned in the OP?

The only time a black applicant would get a job over a white under affirmative action would be if the company had a track record of hiring white males who were less qualified over minority aoolicants and it could be proven. It's does not equal free jobs for minorities like people think.
 
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trunks2k

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I didn't say anything about the beneficiaries of racial quotas being less qualified, although that certainly could be the case. In fact it would seem to logically have to be the case in some number of cases. However, just assuming job applicants are exactly equally qualified, and the black person gets the job because they're black, isn't that a privilege which more than compensates for the trivia mentioned in the OP?
No.

Affirmative action is supposed to make an attempt to cancel out the advantages other racial groups have when it comes to hiring. Let's assume for a moment that The population is 70% Purple, and 30% Green. In a given, large company, due to various subtle and not so subtle prejudices against Greens, the company is 99% Purple, despite the availability of qualified Greens looking for jobs. Under affirmative action, the company would make an effort to make the company reflect the actual population make up as much a reasonably possible based on available qualified candidates. That would mean, that given two equally qualified candidates, one a Purple and one a Green, you would be encouraged to hire the Green. This is not a privilege of the Green, but an attempt at cancelling out of the privilege that the Purple has.

It doesn't compensate the Green for other privileges Purples may have in life, but it helps to cancel out the privilege in that one area.
 
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Chesterton

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The only time a black applicant would get a job over a white under affirmative action would be if the company had a track record of hiring white males who were less qualified over minority aoolicants and it could be proven. It's does not equal free jobs for minorities like people think.
First, I don't know that that's true, it seems nearly impossible in actual practice, but even if it is true, what difference does it make? A black person still enjoys that privilege.
 
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Chesterton

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No.

Affirmative action is supposed to make an attempt to cancel out the advantages other racial groups have when it comes to hiring. Let's assume for a moment that The population is 70% Purple, and 30% Green. In a given, large company, due to various subtle and not so subtle prejudices against Greens, the company is 99% Purple, despite the availability of qualified Greens looking for jobs. Under affirmative action, the company would make an effort to make the company reflect the actual population make up as much a reasonably possible based on available qualified candidates. That would mean, that given two equally qualified candidates, one a Purple and one a Green, you would be encouraged to hire the Green. This is not a privilege of the Green, but an attempt at cancelling out of the privilege that the Purple has.

It doesn't compensate the Green for other privileges Purples may have in life, but it helps to cancel out the privilege in that one area.
How do you know the reason the company is 99% white? (Let's talk real colors since real individuals are affected by this.)
 
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trunks2k

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How do you know the reason the company is 99% white? (Let's talk real colors since real individuals are affected by this.)
You can look at the past history and statistics/data. If there's qualified black candidates available, and a given company isn't hiring any of them, then that's indicative of a problem revolving around race. It may be outright racism, or it could be something more subtle.

Outright racism: Mary in HR, who is the first line in resume sceening, throws away resumes that seem to be from black candidates.

More subtle : They are recruiting at job fairs at colleges that are pretty much all white, because that's where people in HR went to school, while ignoring similar schools that have more black kids, because the people in HR are white and don't know about these schools. An affirmative action policy would encourage a company that has a disproportional racial representation to increase focus on recruiting from where they would get more of the unrepresented race, like doing job fairs at schools that are made of a majority black students.

Nobody expects the labor market to be a perfect reflection of the population as a whole, so you can't expect a company to match that make up. But you can look at the available labor and see what a company's make up actually is and encourage it to match it.
 
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ScottA

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And yet, no one is "blaming whites" here.

No. One.
Enabling, supporting, and chiming in on the backlashes of those who cry, "Unfair!" may not be blaming others in so many words, but it does point the finger to those who...simply...do not cry out. It is that finger pointing that make this all unjust. All people suffer and have their own problems. People blame God for all the same reasons. So, then, is God to blame for all the shortcomings of life? Do we need a thread On God Privilege?

The point here that should be realized...is that blaming others is no solution...and getting on the bandwagon is even worse.
 
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Gxg (G²)

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If it was an exception then there wouldn't be a "racial gap" in anything. However, we see it in everything from airbnb to police stops.
We can also remember that it's present in things like housing discrimination and gentrification as well. That's actually where it is the MOST direct, to be honest.

That said, as another noted best (from the perspective of a white person trying to educate others on white privilege):

Thinking about racism as acts of race prejudice ignores the presence of power and privilege. Wonder if you have privilege because of your race, or want to understand it? Take Peggy McIntosh’s “White Privilege: Unpacking the Invisible Knapsack” or watch her TEDx talk “How studying privilege systems can strengthen compassion”.


But racism operates not only on an individual level, it’s also external, and institutional.

When white people came to this country, many of our families were given land – land taken from Native Americans and Latinos. I went to high school in Texas and learned a historical narrative about the brave settlers (some of whom were my family members). In graduate school, I went across the border and visited a Mexican museum where I learned the other side of the story: about massacres, and systemic displacement. I looked at historical maps showing Mexican territory extending across most of modern Texas, the southwest and California (circa 1820-1840.) More than a century later, white veterans (yes, my uncles) got help with more education and a mortgage (through the G.I. bill), while Japanese Americans had their property systematically taken from them (look into Japanese internment). Sure, slavery is over, and the Chinese exclusion act overturned, but neither African Americans nor Chinese people received any financial or educational compensation for these systematic evils. These are only a few of the institutional and structural expressions of racism.

The systems which were historically created are now held together by simple structural arrangements like property taxes: our schools and their quality reflect the property values of our neighborhoods. Instead of slavery and Jim Crow laws, we now have the school-to-prison pipeline and mass incarceration
.

For more on the reality of mass incarceration and the New Jim Crow, there has been discussion elsewhere on the issue. Also, as it concerns housing discrimination and white privilege:


-"What Whites Will Never Know • My Open Letter to White ..." (http://whatwhiteswillneverknow.com/post/75598021537/my-open-letter-to-white-people-or-why-i-hate )

-"Why Reverse Racism Isn’t Real" ( http://feminspire.com/why-reverse-racism-isnt-real/ )

-"Color-Blind Racism by William Frey on Prezi" ( )

-"Book Review: “Racism Without Racists” by Eduardo Bonilla-Silva" ( http://www.mattluedke.com/book-review-racism-without-racists-by-eduardo-bonilla-silva/ )

-"Racism Without Racists - Anthropology 1001" ( https://anth1001.files.wordpress.co...ty_in_the_united_states_2nd_edition__2006.pdf )

-"Racism Without Racists - Eduardo Bonilla-Silva - YouTube" (
) & (http://www.c-span.org/video/?318386-5/book-discussion-racism-without-racists )

-""The Invisible Weight of Whiteness: The Racial Grammar of Everyday Life in Amerika"" ( https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BlruIvxaB_I )
The issue of discrimination via housing is one of the most diabolical realities that people need to address - and yet so often we act as if it's not there. Surely FLINT Michigan taught us something on the issue, but of course, we've ignored that.

Majora Carter who deals extensively with the societal constructs in regards to toxic racism and how much that has been a long-standing issue.



One of the first basics we have to address with regards to the matter is addressing the myth that all forms of societal constructs to systematically oppress black people somehow ended the moment the Civil Rights Act was passed. That tends to be a popular narrative as if all things magically ended at some point in the 60s but there multiple battles following afterward showing things reverting - and evolving to become more covert in certain circumstances and then even overt. Fred Hamptom, Angela Davis, The Attica Prison Riots and multiple other things were covered in eras since and these have been things people have been raising alarm on for decades that often get ignored. But it is often minimized because people go with certain things. Individual white prejudices against black people make a difference in large numbers but there is still a large institutional system at play and we have to tackle it upfront.

As said best by Dr.Jemar Tisbyy on the issue you noted, "Too many of us have the following understanding of the civil rights movement: "One day, a nice old lady, Rosa Parks, sat down on a bus and got arrested. The next day, Martin Luther King Jr. stood up, and the Montgomery bus boycott followed. And sometime later, King delivered his famous ‘I Have a Dream’ speech, and segregation was over.” No one keeps up with what happened after King's assasination and several other events since which civil rights activists from that era have noted (https://www.raanetwork.org/the-majo...l&utm_source=facebook.com&utm_campaign=buffer ).

The daughter of the late Hosea Williams (King's second in command) of HOSEA HELPS Hosea strong All year long has often spoken on that when it comes to social constructs from that era which were never removed - but the language changed so people spoke about being unified and were no longer as direct....even though in practice they did the same things. We ignore the policies made by the Civil Rights era that were actively REVERSED - from the Voting ID Laws keeping others from voting in minority communities (especially in Alabama) to economic discrimination (i.e. gentrification, vulture capitalism, toxic racism with setting up waste dumps/dumping garbage in lower income communities and not allowing them representation, etc.) - seeking to remove funding from programs that Civil Rights activists fought to create which were aimed at aiding the poor and minorities....Dr. Cornel West has noted this one very often with regards to the era of Reagan when many things changed. There's also the issue of how other migrants/immigrants are seen - when it comes to Latinos/Hispanics in the systems they face all the time.....even Hispanic citizens have had to deal with societal constructs.
And as we already have Native Americans consistently dealing with their own lands/territories (Tribal Sovereignty) dishonored and policies set up which have been damaging to their welfare....that is one we're definitely NOT comfortable addressing.

Again, with white privilege, we cannot really escape what other civil rights activists from the same era as the passing of the Civil Rights Act have long noted when it comes to societal constructs still in place - including the Prison Industrial complex, Toxic Racism, Gentrification and several other things.TOXIC Racism (i.e. placing waste in economically impoverished communities..especially minority ones and poor/rural white communities ) due to institutional discrimination...or choosing to push out communities in the event that the government finds a use for the land they live in/have chosen to adapt to. In many areas, government has actively been fighting against groups that have sought to combat issues due to how previous eras involved land that was stolen from others---and pushing people by when trying to come in/re-develop (gentrification). Gentrification has been around for ages/impacted minority communites extensively. Saw this often during street ministry at places such as City of Refuge and it was disgusting to see the ways they'd kick out ENTIRE communities in the urban community because they were trying to make something there---with the people being homeless. And for many seeking to cultivate the land, it is a big concern.. What's happening with others in L.A is a big deal with regards to the Hispanic community and their struggles... as well as what's occurring in Atlanta.

-"(Gentrification Movie) The Atlanta Way: Rough Cut [facebook.com/theatlantaway" ()


And this follows on the impact of what we saw in the 80s after Reagan. As another noted best, "t is no secret that Reaganism, in its original form, was especially unkind to the Black community. "The Reagan legacy is replete with examples of disrespect and outright hostility towards African-Americans," writes David Love in The Grio. "As governor of California, Ronald Reagan signed the Mulford Act , which prohibited the public carrying of firearms. The law was passed specifically as a direct response to the Black Panther Party." On the campaign trail, Reagan courted openly racist Dixiecrats in the South, championed the States Rights platform which was responsible for Jim Crow, and even referred to the historic Voting Rights Act as "humiliating to the South." While in office, Reagan "stepped up the war on drugs, which was really a war against people of color; waged an assault on labor unions ; cut programs of importance to African Americans; slashed low income housing under HUD and social programs such as Medicaid and food stamps that disproportionately impacted black people; attacked the government's civil rights infrastructure; sought to gut the Voting Rights Act and affirmative action; and waged war on the tiny Caribbean nation of Grenada. Reagan even befriended the white supremacist government in South Africa, and vetoed a bill to impose sanctions against the apartheid regime."" (http://www.hamptoninstitution.org/blackreaganism.html#.Vl9BU_mrSM8 )
And of course there's the world of Academia - as there have been multiple cases where scholars who were minorities have experienced harassment on their jobs..some calling out issues of integrity and even being fired due to the discrimination/trying to keep issues hushed. It is unfortunate but those things happened even in the Civil Rights era, which had plenty of people who did well but it was in spite of mess rather than because of it. This is something that is not easy to discuss when seeing how many universities are influenced by people from the top down. ...and something many have been trying to convey when it comes to seeing voices that aren't heard frequently - amazing series called "Black to School: African-American Voices at Christian Colleges" (http://www.christenacleveland.com/2013/09/miscalculating-racism-life-on-a-christian-college-campus/ ) and (http://www.christenacleveland.com/tag/black-to-school/ )

-"Dr. Boyce Watkins; It’s Time for Black Scholars to Get Off the Academic Plantation. - Thy Black Man" ( http://thyblackman.com/2011/11/16/i...t-off-the-academic-plantation/comment-page-1/ )

--"Why Aren’t Black Men Graduating From College? ( http://thyblackman.com/2010/04/07/why-aren’t-black-men-graduating-from-college/ )

--"Racism in the Higher Education Market" (http://www.darkmatter101.org/site/2014/04/25/higher-education-a-market-for-racism/ )​

And of course, when it comes to prisons, you know how many black/brown STUDENTS have been wrongly accused and sent to prisons because prison itself is a business - others have said how much damage has been happening like that since slavery (part of the background dynamics that don't get seen) because of the profiling. ..and then the extensive amount of deaths that have occurred from the Drug War which the government benefits from ...

--"Drug Wars, Migrant Discrimination & Prison Reform: Real Solutions for healing Economy" (http://www.christianforums.com/thre...ns-for-healing-economy.7706740/#post-61916322 )

-"Michelle Alexander: Locked Out of the American Dream" ( https://vimeo.com/82266062 )

-"African American Wrongful Convictions Throughout History ...The Innocence Project" ( http://www.innocenceproject.org/new...rican-wrongful-convictions-throughout-history )​



There's also the issue of what happens with history/teaching itself when it comes to multiple things in the textbooks themselves which repeatedly had impacted the way blacks and non-whites were told to see themselves as - one famous AND prominent textbook in high school actually saying outright that slavery itself for blacks was actually "immigration" before a black mother noted it and called it out. This was following on the heels of textbook associations in schools throughout Texas saying that they did not want to include history on the KKK and other groups who harmed minorities (https://www.facebook.com/roni.deanburren/videos/10208248919206996/ ) / (http://www.nytimes.com/2015/10/06/u...refers-to-african-slaves-as-workers.html?_r=0 ).


- that is something that can never be excused when it comes to the covert racism that has been playing out bit by bit.......and amazingly, just as in the days of King, many outright defend it but say "Well, I'm not a racist."


--"American history books and racism | Abagond" (https://abagond.wordpress.com/2010/02/17/american-history-books-and-racism/ )

---"Whitewashing Our Past - Zinn Education Project" ( http://zinnedproject.org/materials/whitewashing-our-past/ )

---"Rethinking Columbus -- Expanded Second Edition ..." ( https://rethinkingschoolsblog.wordpress.com/2012/01/13/rethinking-columbus-banned-in-tucson/ )

---"“Modern racism lurks in the shadows of equality”: Why colorblind school policies have failed black people" ( http://www.salon.com/2015/07/05/mod...ol_policies_have_failed_black_people_partner/ )​

It's an era where you can effectively have it where you have 'racism without racists".......

Many whites are not aware of because they never investigated it due to assuming the popular narrative that EVERYTHING ended during the Civil Rights act - individual racism is one level among many others although even with that there is a long-standing issue. And this goes back to the issue that many whites tend to go with the dynamic of pointing out success stories as proof that all things negatively ended - but there are and have ALWAYS been successful black people in communities noting flatly that success for some does not mean success for all nor does being exceptional mean that that there was not a system they had to fight against. My mother is an OB-Gyn - others love to point out how she and I made it when the odds were against us - and yet we both realize how much garbage was present we and others went through to get there that people do not see because they are so focused on the success.

We don't forget where we come from...and we bave often seen the ways that what people tend to gravitate toward is really the success stories as if it's proof that all things are fine. It does make a difference more than people realize since there were people even in the Civil Rights era who were successful - success stories people would point out in the community ..

-Racism, Exceptionalism, and the Confession of a Southern WASP ( http://johndwilsey.com/2014/10/30/racism-exceptionalism-and-the-confession-of-a-southern-wasp/ )​
 
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rturner76

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First, I don't know that that's true, it seems nearly impossible in actual practice, but even if it is true, what difference does it make? A black person still enjoys that privilege.

It would be a better privilege to not need a program like that because all was equal.
 
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Gxg (G²)

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If it was an exception then there wouldn't be a "racial gap" in anything. However, we see it in everything from airbnb to police stops.
If interested, Jemar Tisby, and Beau York to define the term "white privilege", explain it and discuss whether its usefulness in public discussion.



Pass The Mic: Defining White Privilege
Jemar, Tyler, and Beau answer some listener feedback by defining what they are referring to when talking about ‘white privilege’ Podcast: Play in new window ...


RAANETWORK.ORG



The Liturgists
March 29 ·


This is one of our most important podcasts yet.



Episode 34 - Black and White: Racism in America
Michael Gungor and Science Mike talk with Propaganda and William Matthews about race, racism, white supremacy in America. Here’s some additional reading on the topic of racism in America: Between the World and Me The New Jim…
THELITURGISTS.COM



Ignored: Poor Whites
The numbers are staggering.
INTELLECTUALTAKEOUT.ORG



As another said best,


12494950_10100243988437169_1917816392699974942_n.jpg

"'We know that Martin Luther King Jr., Malcolm X, and Medgar Evers were all shot while wearings suits and that their fine attire did not save them. Archbishop Oscar Romero was wearing his priestly robes, leading Christians in worship, when he was murdered. Respectability will not and cannot save anyone, even if you are dressed in your Sunday best and praying in a church pew.

Sagging pants agitate some opponents to the point of fury. But how quickly we forget 'disrespectful attire' of yesteryear, when long-haired kids were told to "get a haircut and get a real job" and then blamed when run-ins with the police turned violent. Or recall how Madonna first used underwear as outerwear in a manner that is now the ubiquitous summertime tank top. And while her style challenged prevailing sensibility, it didn't prompt the same racialized anger we see raged against sagging pants (yet her trend certainly revealed more actual skin)......................Pull your pants up' falls into a broader category of logical facility called 'respectability politics,' and its very close sibling 'cultural pathology.' It says that cultures or people are inherently responsible for their own misfortune through some combination of genetics, upbringing, and/or values. It suggests that simply becoming more 'likable' will solve the problems that you face. Indeed, it is at the root of the media's need to uncover all the dark secrets a black victims' life in an effort to determine what they 'did wrong to deserve it.' The message is "if you become like us, then maybe we'll treat you better." But this path leads nowhere, because there is no end to the cultural hoops that oppressed groups will be asked to jump through."
 
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ScottA

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We can also remember that it's present in things like housing discrimination and gentrification as well. That's actually where it is the MOST direct, to be honest.

That said, as another noted best (from the perspective of a white person trying to educate others on white privilege):

Thinking about racism as acts of race prejudice ignores the presence of power and privilege. Wonder if you have privilege because of your race, or want to understand it? Take Peggy McIntosh’s “White Privilege: Unpacking the Invisible Knapsack” or watch her TEDx talk “How studying privilege systems can strengthen compassion”.


But racism operates not only on an individual level, it’s also external, and institutional.

When white people came to this country, many of our families were given land – land taken from Native Americans and Latinos. I went to high school in Texas and learned a historical narrative about the brave settlers (some of whom were my family members). In graduate school, I went across the border and visited a Mexican museum where I learned the other side of the story: about massacres, and systemic displacement. I looked at historical maps showing Mexican territory extending across most of modern Texas, the southwest and California (circa 1820-1840.) More than a century later, white veterans (yes, my uncles) got help with more education and a mortgage (through the G.I. bill), while Japanese Americans had their property systematically taken from them (look into Japanese internment). Sure, slavery is over, and the Chinese exclusion act overturned, but neither African Americans nor Chinese people received any financial or educational compensation for these systematic evils. These are only a few of the institutional and structural expressions of racism.

The systems which were historically created are now held together by simple structural arrangements like property taxes: our schools and their quality reflect the property values of our neighborhoods. Instead of slavery and Jim Crow laws, we now have the school-to-prison pipeline and mass incarceration.
That's a bunch of hooey!

Life is full of would-be injustice, and to go back and place blame (for whatever reason), is just more of the same finger pointing that is the root cause. No, the only way to stop the problem is to NOT get sucked into slinging the same mud.

Do you think it is any different if you surge forward in life with a pencil score on a test that leads to a better job, than a sword did in another time of history? No...and it doesn't help to call it white privilege or white collar crime. Life is a battlefield. People get hurt. That's just life. Stop being part of the problem. Stop lashing back.

Love your neighbor.
 
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Gxg (G²)

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I suggest reading the whole article (below) it is only one short page
http://www.tolerance.org/article/racism-and-white-privilege

Excerpted from White Anti-Racist Activism: A Personal Roadmap by Jennifer R. Holladay, M.S. (Crandall, Dostie & Douglass Books, Inc., 2000) and published in the magazine Teaching Tolerance, a project by The Southern Poverty Law Canter

"On White Privilege
White skin privilege is not something that white people necessarily do, create or enjoy on purpose. Unlike the more overt individual and institutional manifestations of racism described above, white skin privilege is a transparent preference for whiteness that saturates our society. White skin privilege serves several functions. First, it provides white people with “perks” that we do not earn and that people of color do not enjoy. Second, it creates real advantages for us. White people are immune to a lot of challenges. Finally, white privilege shapes the world in which we live — the way that we navigate and interact with one another and with the world."


Can we finally agree that white privilege exists? Yes or No?

I have heard it said by some prominent people (Namely Talib Kwieli Green Artist and philosopher) that those who do not acknowledge white privilege are racist. Yes or No?
This may come off the wrong way (as I appreciate what you've noted here) - but in my own academic studies, I must say that there's really NO such thing as "white people" ......

Tim Wise did an excellent job of tackling the issue for what it is when he was talking about how the elite have historically used racism to divide and conquer (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=477QqWOVBHw )....and people did the same thing in MLK's day and other scholars such as Dr. Michelle Alexander have spoken on that matter when pointing out how Dr. Martin Luther King spoke on the issue (https://soundcloud.com/mipdo/rare-mlk-jr-on-how-the-races).

The concept was invented and the language itself is part of why there's such disconnection between camps AND not seeing people as people.

Being Afro-Hispanic on my mom's side and having Caucasian family (i.e. Scottish Great-grandfather, Aunts who are Irish, etc.) and having to negotiate identity a lot growing up, it has been wild over the years taking fire from both sides of the aisle - be it others upset if trying to check them when you say "You can have a culture of white privilege from one group harming in certain areas, even though there's no uniform 'white culture' whenever you examine the harm coming from a dominant group and thinking there's a uniform 'black culture' to lump all into like we're all one happy family...and haven't discriminated against one another."

Or others upset when noting experiences growing up and saying things are WAY more complicated than simply having diversity in image/skin shade in order to address racial discrimination ..as if it's a "Crayola 8" project that will change solely change things because of color...

Or pointing out how often folks tend to think in binary terms (i.e. "White vs. Black") all the time when seeing problems in the nation with racial/ethnic divides - and sub-divisions within cultures as well. We cannot avoid that it wasn't always about whether or not you were "white" since there were multiple divisions in the camp and just as much hatred (i.e. Irish vs. English, Dutch vs., Russian, slavery of other groups within Anglo-Saxon/Caucasian culture, Hillbillies/folks in Appalachian or rural areas not respected in the camp when compared to other groups from Upper-Classes, etc. etc.) while also having unification between camps where people had multiple shades (even Afro-Russians and Black French Nobility - http://afroeurope.blogspot.com/2009/10/black-history-black-european-nobility.html )........identity not based solely on color, even though your shade was seen as part of the expression of who someone was.

W.E.B DeBois pointed out the issues in his day repeatedly with labor movements when saying it has never been about "Us vs. Them" - but about POWER, those who have it and those who don't...the entire reason why the concept of being "white" got invented by those threatened by unity in groups (especially with aiding each other economically/being a real neighbor to others) in order to divide the camps from seeing where their common struggle gave them common strength. Language always is a means to either free people or control them and glad for Scholars/activists such as Theodore W. Allen ahead of the game for showing how to deal with the issue.

For more on what Theodore W. Allen has noted when seeing what happened on the development of being "white" and contrasting against being "black":

-"“Theodore W. Allen -- Theses on ‘The Invention of the White Race’ and Lessons from Three Crises” (
& https://www.youtube.com/user/jeffreybperry/videos )

--"Theodore W. Allen – There Were No White People There – In Early 17th Century Virginia" (
)​

Jefferey B. Perry is astounding, IMHO, in how he gets the ways that concepts evolved - and addressing both what it means to be "black" in the U.S. and what it means to be "white" in the U.S...and showing the variations of that as well as unifying factors in both sides - and how to address the issues of white supremacy in the U.S. and understanding why there was such a development of identity focus in black culture in response to that

Having to do one of my papers for Graduate school this year on the issue, it is something that I do think needs to be noted more and seen for what it is. I was astounded, for example, at what occurred with the Chinese when they came to the U.S. alongside other groups from throughout Asia. They immigrated over and were often called over by the U.S. as slave labor - and other Immigrant groups present in the U.S such as the Irish were able to work alongside them extensively/have working relationships.....especially as seen in the Transcontinental Railroad. Of course, when competition occurred and the Chinese became more successful - or found ways to be more efficient than the Irish, the private companies not liking labor strikes by the Irish for higher wages convinced others to start seeing the Chinese as being a threat to "white people"/the plight of the White Struggle" - convincing the Irish to fear them and fight against them. A lot of anti-Immigration laws and restrictions were made against as a result, until full out acts of violence occurred - causing the development of China towns throughout the West. For more, one excellent book on the issue is "Railroaded: The Transcontinentals and the Making of Modern America" (https://books.google.com/books?id=Iiq0ZDlzDoYC&pg=PA296&dq=Railroaded:+Chinese+Irish+workers&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0CBwQ6AEwAGoVChMIur2QtaqKyAIVicyACh3PaAe3#v=onepage&q=Railroaded: Chinese Irish workers&f=false ). Also, for other documentaries:

-"The Transcontinental Railroad (AMAZING AMERICAN HISTORY DOCUMENTARY" (
)

-"Chinese Railroad Workers Memorial - YouTube" (
)

--"Asian Immigration / Transcontinental Railroad" ( https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a2lKZpGqoPE )​

Additionally, as it concerns the reality of the Irish and their own history with slavery prior to the Chinese experiencing it (which is a BIG deal since shared history being forgotten is always at the root of a lot of divisions), one can check out Irish Slavery and "Ireland & the Slave Trade - DNA & Family Tree" (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RxCKKqZ2iKU ) - or "The Irish Slave Trade – The Forgotten “White” Slaves The Slaves That Time Forgot." ( https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?...set=a.1145095023927.2021869.1124053773&type=3 )
One can check this out as well - as it concerns how the British brought other Asians throughout the Caribbean and mix them in with the intention of shifting division in camps when they could no longer allow for slavery of blacks - Coolies: How British Reinvented Slavery"( https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oxl4q_jfDPI ). All of that was happening near the same time as the battles the Chinese had going on with being mistreated with the building of the Railroad.

Also, for an excellent presentation that REALLY gives food for thought, one may go here:

-"How White People Got Made - the Message" (https://medium.com/message/how-white-people-got-made-6eeb076ade42 ).

--"The White Problem - the Message" ( https://medium.com/message/whiteness-3ead03700322 )​

It was written by one Caucasian individual noting the ways that things evolved and it was a really challenging perspective, IMHO, that I think others need to consider. As said best there on how things evolved:
___________________________________________________________

-"There’s a perception that whiteness is working for white people. It’s not. Whiteness is one of the biggest and most long-running scams ever perpetrated. It started in the late 1600s in America, but like so many scams, it spiraled out of control until it had a life of its own.

Not long after Europeans started arriving on the east coast of North America and the Caribbean Islands they found themselves rich in land but desperate for labor to work the land. The answer they struck upon was importation of bond labor, initially mostly Irish. The Irish had not been considered fully human under English law for centuries, and they ended up in plantations and working sugar under the Caribbean sun. The easy part of importing Irish (and Scottish) slave labor was that they were right next to England. The downside is there wasn’t enough of them for the amazing amounts of land laid before the eager English settlers, and thus the Atlantic slave trade with Africa was born. This is the story we hear in school, but the abridged version we get, intentionally or not, hides the scam of it. Initially the bond terms of convict, Scotch-Irish, and African labor was a set period of time, at the end of which they received bond money and their freedom in this new land. In fact, not that many bondsmen and women lived to be free, but some did, and established themselves as a mixed-race, free peasantry of the new world. If you’ve ever wondered where the free blacks of so many stories of early America came from, a large number were the families of freed African bond laborers.

The white cry, from the 17th century, to George Wallace, and still alive in the present day.

As time went on, the labor needs of the land holders continued to grow, and desperate to cultivate the land, they were loathe to let go of their bond servants and the bondsmen and bondswomen’s children (whom they kept in bondage for a legally defined time as well). In the mean time, a growing American peasantry was proving as difficult to govern as the European peasantry back home, periodically rising up in riot and rebellion, light skinned and dark skinned together. The political leaders of the Virginia colony struck upon an answer to all these problems, an answer which plagues us to this day.

The Virginians legislated a new class of people into existence: the whites. They gave the whites certain rights, and took other rights from blacks. White, as a language of race, appears in Virginia around the 1680s, and seems to first appear in Virginia law in 1691. And thus whiteness, and to a degree as well blackness, was born in the mind of America."
_____________________________________________________________________________




That said, I really appreciated Dr. Camara Jones talks about race and the construction of racial categories in how we interpret our appearance and existence in the world through allegory. Her deconstruction was very dynamic in showing the many layers that get lost in conversation because of things we don't even realize in an everyday context
(https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GNhcY6fTyBM )
 
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Chesterton

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You can look at the past history and statistics/data. If there's qualified black candidates available,...

Who determines if they're qualified, and as I asked rturner, what does any of that matter?
It would be a better privilege to not need a program like that because all was equal.

The way to make all equal is to remove such privileges.
 
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rturner76

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I didn't say anything about the beneficiaries of racial quotas being less qualified, although that certainly could be the case. In fact it would seem to logically have to be the case in some number of cases. However, just assuming job applicants are exactly equally qualified, and the black person gets the job because they're black, isn't that a privilege which more than compensates for the trivia mentioned in the OP?

The trivia in the OP was just a few examples to illustrate how our society is set up to see white as "normal" and non white is abnormal. In this thread there are many examples of how white america is on a higher tier than minority america. There are gaps such as typically white schools are better funded, white unemployment is lower, blacks receive longer prison sentences for the same crimes as whites. Blacks are paid less when doing the same jobs etc. etc. and so on. It's a first class second class system but it is getting better the more we have dialogue like this and people fight against the current system by ensuring equal pay, and equal treatment to others when they are in a position of power especially.
 
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