"On White Privilege"

[The Cadet]

Maybe she's a racist and sees through that lens.

Did we seriously "he who smelt it dealt it" on racism?

Also, are we seriously debating Cameron Diaz's ethnicity?

...Guys, she's whiter than Ted Cruz. I don't care who her father was, she's obviously not the victim of racism in the way "brown" hispanic people are. Because she's white. Because there's no reason for anyone to suspect that she isn't white.

 

[nightflight]

And here is a "white Hispanic":

 

[nightflight]

 

[Kersh]

I am white, and was raised in a middle-class, two parent, college educated home . Each of these facts extended to me certain privileges that I would not have otherwise had. I never once feared that I would be profiled by the police because of my skin color. I was never subjected to racial slurs. I never had someone make assumptions about me on account of my skin color or name. I never once missed a meal. I was never unable to complete an assignment in school because my family couldn't afford the materials I needed. I had access to state of the art technology. I never doubted that I'd be able to go to college. I knew that there'd be a job available to me when I was done, and if there wasn't one, I had family to help in the meantime. I had no problem getting loans to go through grad school. And so on. Yes, privilege exists, and race is a big part of it.

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[ArmenianJohn]

I know right? Just being white makes one guilty and the owner of "privilege".

Guilty, no ("guilty" of what, anyway?). Owner of privilege, definitely.

 

[Kersh]

The other day, my 10-year-old daughter was playing in the front yard when a truck drove by and the driver yelled out the n-word. Each school year, she has had at least one instance in which a classmate has made a comment to her suggesting that she is of less value because she has brown skin. Are these common experiences for white children?

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[nightflight]

Guilty, no ("guilty" of what, anyway?). Owner of privilege, definitely.

That's what this is all about; historical culpability for things other people did. And, no, there is no "white privilege". That's just a stupid term created to legitimize genetic guilt.

 

[Kersh]

That's what this is all about; historical culpability for things other people did. And, no, there is no "white privilege". That's just a stupid term created to legitimize genetic guilt.

I really wish you were right. But, at least in my part of the country, white privilege is very real.

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[nightflight]

I really wish you were right. But, at least in my part of the country, white privilege is very real.

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My parents both grew up during the Great Depression; my father grew up in poverty. They worked really hard to support us and we barely got by sometimes. There was no "privilege".

 

[SummerMadness]

Funny that people want to call Hispanics white when they want to argue that Hispanic is an ethnicity, not a race. Then they flip around and start complaining about "brown people complaining."

 

[Gxg (G²)]

Funny that people want to call Hispanics white when they want to argue that Hispanic is an ethnicity, not a race. Then they flip around and start complaining about "brown people complaining."

Within the Hispanic world, this is something that has been well known and discussed for some time. Used to think on it often when watching the Spanish Network and seeing all of the Soap-Operas - always with actors I thought were "White" when the reality was that they were light-skinned Hispanics/White Hispanics. My grandmother, from Panama, often saw it when it came to the same realities of dark vs light present throughout the Latino world just as with other places - the Dark Skin Hispanics SITLL being treated more harshly than the lighter skin ones and that is not surprising in light of the history with what occurred with Spain and the Conquistodors and conquering the New World with the basis of it being a color system.

There'll always be prejudice on all sides just as it has been with all groups, be it with the Black Hispanics/Black Latinos have beef with others who are Light-Skinned/White Spaniards (as was the case in the Americas when the system of judging based on color came in with Mestizos/Indigenious peoples being judged as inferior to the Spaniards based on the imperialism brought in). And we already have MANY cases of racism from Hispanics toward Blacks - one of them involving a case where officers were called to the 100 block of Fourth Avenue just after 9:30 p.m. Wednesday, June 8, 2011, because Neighbors reported a large group of Hispanic men who were using baseball bats to beat another black man.

Henry Louis Gates did an EXCELLENT series on the issue that I wish more were aware of - as it's something many Black Hispanics have been wishing more were aware of when thinking the issue of "black vs white" is only a U.S reality that the rest of the world never saw..

Black in Latin America E03, Mexico and Peru: The Black Grandma in​

With Zimmerman, there's no real escaping the dynamic of ethnicity making a difference (IMHO) - and for more, one can consider Zimmerman and The Invention of the White Race | Dogma and Politics... or investigate the following:

• AFRO-EUROPE: Black people in Spain
• Yes: Latinos Can Be Racist, Too | Politic365
• Racism Among Hispanics: The George Zimmerman
• Hispanics can be victims and perpetrators of racism
• BLACKS ATTACKED IN COLOMBIA: RACISM IN LATIN
• Racism in Spain: A Case Study. | Equipaje de mano
• Carlos in DC: Racism in Mexican TV: mockery of African
• Conservatives baffled at idea of white Hispanic people
• The “White Hispanic” Label: Yes, People, Racism Is a Latino Thing too
• MASKING HISPANIC RACISM: A CUBAN CASE STUDY

Of course, for people saying "Zimmeran CAN'T be white!!!!", it's perplexing when they don't want to claim the President himself is Mulatto rather than saying he's only black - or being quick to identify him as able to be "White" when they want to identify with him.

 

[SummerMadness]

I know right? Just being white makes one guilty and the owner of "privilege".

There is nothing to feel guilty about, this has already been discussed, rather than engage in the discussion you ignore those points. Address those points before repeating the same tired arguments.

 

[nightflight]

There is nothing to feel guilty about, this has already been discussed, rather than engage in the discussion you ignore those points. Address those points before repeating the same tired arguments.

I disagree.

 

[Ana the Ist]

And other evidence does not support that the system "favors blacks." The paper clearly states, "Heterogeneity across judges in sentencing by race suggests that courtroom outcomes may not be race blind." They can't remove the uncertainty, but they can see there is a racial component, and given the history of the United States and the findings in other studies, the idea of the theoretical judge favoring black defendants is unlikely. Can you say that statistically? No. But does other evidence suggest otherwise, yes.

What "other evidence" are you referring to in your last sentence there? When I first brought up the study, I said that there is a racial component...that's exactly my point. You've got men and women, black and white, who are fully aware that they shouldn't ever be considering race as a factor in their sentencing. Would you agree that in all likelihood...they're doing their very best to avoid letting any personal racial bias enter into their decisions on the bench? Or do you think that a handful of genuinely racist judges are using their authority to oppress different racial groups?

They didn't do additional work because they wanted a publication; extra work is not so much about the effort, but because it's better to write a paper to highlight your novel method (Monte Carlo simulations), rather than trying to answer questions about every confounding variable. There is a degree of advancing your career here.

That's an interesting take on it....not the way I see it, but I can understand why you see it that way. Do you at least understand that with all the different variables in play during a crime and a trial....there's never going to be an "apples-to-apples" type of comparison which might allow us to say definitively that racism is causing black men to receive longer sentences than white men?

Racial Gap in Men's Sentencing

This link just shows that blacks get longer sentences on average than whites. Certainly after reading the study I posted there are many many reasons that can explain this which have nothing to do with racism.

US Sentencing Commission releases (and provides on-line here only) new Booker report

Download Booker_PressRelease_final
Download Part A - Continuing Impact of Booker on Federal Sentencing​

http://sentencing.typepad.com/files/part-a---continuing-impact-of-booker-on-federal-sentencing.pdf

​

I'm sorry....that pdf is 100+ pages. On my phone, the type is also really tiny. I read about 10 pages before I got a headache and honestly...I didn't see anything suggesting racism is responsible for disparities in sentences. If there is a relevant page or pages....please just list the numbers for me and I'll gladly take a look.

It is quite clear there is racial discrimination that they may not be able to pinpoint with complete statistical certainty.

It doesn't seem that clear to me. I can understand why some people who's gut reaction is to blame things on race may see it that way...but I'm simply not willing to jump to that conclusion.

However, given the policies like stop-and-frisk (of which I was surprisingly stopped in a polo shirt and khakis, you know "thug life"),

I don't know if "stop-and-frisk" was written with racist intentions....but it's application certainly seems racist. I'm completely against it...is it a law anywhere other than New York?

police shootings

I don't see much (if any) racism in police shootings. From what I've read, blacks assault police, shoot at police, and commit violent crimes at a higher rate than their white and hispanic counterparts. One would expect them to get shot by police at a similarly higher rate. Also, black officers shoot black suspects at the same rate as their white partners. The idea that racism is behind this would mean that all black police officers suddenly become racist against themselves once donning the badge. It's an idea almost too dumb to comprehend.

as well as evidence of racial discrimination in employment, housing, etc., suggestions arguing that there is no racism is ridiculous on its face. These factors are not independent, they're interconnected, and the current state is unacceptable, hence the reason to keep keepin' on.

I'd love to see the relevant studies that show racism in regards to housing and employment.

I'm not saying racism doesn't exist on a personal level....I just think the notion that real estate agents all hate blacks seems a little far-fetched.

 

[The Cadet]

That's what this is all about; historical culpability for things other people did.

No, it's not. Maybe if someone is proposing a concept, and you reject that concept, you should listen to how they define the concept before dismissing a strawman version of it. You're not guilty for being white and having white privilege any more than I'm guilty for not being blind and being privileged over the blind.

And, no, there is no "white privilege".

Sure, if you ignore every example brought up in the thread, this would be a reasonable thing to say. Given that you've taken part in the thread, at this point there's really no excuse for being this wrong.

My parents both grew up during the Great Depression; my father grew up in poverty. They worked really hard to support us and we barely got by sometimes. There was no "privilege".

Really? You sure? Did your parents ever live in fear that they would be accosted on the street and randomly lynched for some imaginary slight? Did people demand that they be fired from their jobs because black people shouldn't be taking away the jobs from white people? Were they paid less and forced to take worse jobs because they couldn't get hired for any decent jobs because of their skin color? Could they rely on help from the new deal when it came to mortgages (blacks couldn't)? Could they join established unions, or did they have to try to form their own under threat of violence or murder?

Because, let me tell you, in the Great Depression, white privilege was enshrined in law. It was the de facto and de jure mode of the day. If your parents were black, they would have had a great deal more problems to deal with than if they were white. The great depression sucked for just about everyone. But the idea that whites didn't have it way better than blacks is insane. In fact, historically, many of the things done to help people out of the depression were explicitly reserved for white people!

 

[ArmenianJohn]

That's what this is all about; historical culpability for things other people did. And, no, there is no "white privilege". That's just a stupid term created to legitimize genetic guilt.

If you feel guilt it's because you are guilty of something. This is not about "historical culpability", that's absolutely ridiculous. Yes, there is "white privilege". It's not the same thing as racism and it's not something any one individual "does" - it's endemic in society. It may manifest itself in racist behavior in some people. That's why there's no guilt involved in it. The guilt would be for racism, not for the privilege itself. But the term certainly does hit a nerve with people who are actually guilty of racism.

 

[ArmenianJohn]

What "other evidence" are you referring to in your last sentence there? When I first brought up the study, I said that there is a racial component...that's exactly my point. You've got men and women, black and white, who are fully aware that they shouldn't ever be considering race as a factor in their sentencing. Would you agree that in all likelihood...they're doing their very best to avoid letting any personal racial bias enter into their decisions on the bench? Or do you think that a handful of genuinely racist judges are using their authority to oppress different racial groups?



That's an interesting take on it....not the way I see it, but I can understand why you see it that way. Do you at least understand that with all the different variables in play during a crime and a trial....there's never going to be an "apples-to-apples" type of comparison which might allow us to say definitively that racism is causing black men to receive longer sentences than white men?



This link just shows that blacks get longer sentences on average than whites. Certainly after reading the study I posted there are many many reasons that can explain this which have nothing to do with racism.

​

I'm sorry....that pdf is 100+ pages. On my phone, the type is also really tiny. I read about 10 pages before I got a headache and honestly...I didn't see anything suggesting racism is responsible for disparities in sentences. If there is a relevant page or pages....please just list the numbers for me and I'll gladly take a look.



It doesn't seem that clear to me. I can understand why some people who's gut reaction is to blame things on race may see it that way...but I'm simply not willing to jump to that conclusion.



I don't know if "stop-and-frisk" was written with racist intentions....but it's application certainly seems racist. I'm completely against it...is it a law anywhere other than New York?





I don't see much (if any) racism in police shootings. From what I've read, blacks assault police, shoot at police, and commit violent crimes at a higher rate than their white and hispanic counterparts. One would expect them to get shot by police at a similarly higher rate. Also, black officers shoot black suspects at the same rate as their white partners. The idea that racism is behind this would mean that all black police officers suddenly become racist against themselves once donning the badge. It's an idea almost too dumb to comprehend.



I'd love to see the relevant studies that show racism in regards to housing and employment.

I'm not saying racism doesn't exist on a personal level....I just think the notion that real estate agents all hate blacks seems a little far-fetched.

There's no explaining to a person like this. You provide evidence and she finds some reason to reject it - "the print is too tiny", etc. It's a typical Atheist tactic - "provide evidence - but not THAT evidence! I don't accept THAT as evidence!!"

If you live in America and you don't believe "white privilege" exists you are lying either to yourself or others or both. Asking for more and more "evidence" as if you have never in your life experienced white privilege is nothing but distraction and avoidance in order to defend an indefensible point.

 

[nightflight]

No, it's not. Maybe if someone is proposing a concept, and you reject that concept, you should listen to how they define the concept before dismissing a strawman version of it. You're not guilty for being white and having white privilege any more than I'm guilty for not being blind and being privileged over the blind.

I reject their concepts. No straw-man needed.

Sure, if you ignore every example brought up in the thread, this would be a reasonable thing to say. Given that you've taken part in the thread, at this point there's really no excuse for being this wrong.

I can read the "examples" and still reject the notion of "white privilege". And I do.

Really? You sure? Did your parents ever live in fear that they would be accosted on the street and randomly lynched for some imaginary slight? Did people demand that they be fired from their jobs because black people shouldn't be taking away the jobs from white people? Were they paid less and forced to take worse jobs because they couldn't get hired for any decent jobs because of their skin color? Could they rely on help from the new deal when it came to mortgages (blacks couldn't)? Could they join established unions, or did they have to try to form their own under threat of violence or murder?

My father feared starvation, polio, freezing to death, things like that. To say his and his people had privilege is laughable.

Because, let me tell you, in the Great Depression, white privilege was enshrined in law. It was the de facto and de jure mode of the day. If your parents were black, they would have had a great deal more problems to deal with than if they were white. The great depression sucked for just about everyone. But the idea that whites didn't have it way better than blacks is insane. In fact, historically, many of the things done to help people out of the depression were explicitly reserved for white people!

And there is nothing we can do to change the past. But still the notion of "white privilege" is nonsense. Stop infantalizing people, its just as bad a racism. Also consider that Asians are doing quite well. Hmmm.....

 

[nightflight]

When whites become a numeric minority, none of this will matter anyway. Whites will no longer have the power to indulge in self-flagellation, and others, mainly Asians and Hispanics will be flexing their political muscle, and won't have the same sympathies towards certain others as whites have had. It will be an entirely different dynamic.

 

[SummerMadness]

When whites become a numeric minority, none of this will matter anyway. Whites will no longer have the power to indulge in self-flagellation, and others, mainly Asians and Hispanics will be flexing their political muscle, and won't have the same sympathies towards certain others as whites have had. It will be an entirely different dynamic.

Yeah, remember white South Africans could only perpetuate the institution of apartheid due to their status as the majority population? Population number determines the structure of power!