On the sinfulness of the LGBT path.

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Holoman

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There are many Christians who see the LGBT lifestyle as a natural aspect of life, and many who see it as a sin. Do you view it as sinful?

What do you mean, an LGBT lifestyle? If you mean engaging in homosexual sex, then yes I do.

Are there any reasons outside of the bible why you would view it as inherently a bad or good (or neutral) thing? Thanks!

I suppose moral intuition. As a Catholic I believe in Natural law and that we all have an innate ability to perceive right and wrong. But on issues such as this it can be difficult. I think the Bible is the best place to look for an authoritative answer.

I have actually been reading the Old Testament over the last few weeks from start to finish. I read the whole of Leviticus and Deuteronomy and one thing that struck me is that while they are full of laws (some that seem quite random to us), homosexuality has uncharacteristically strong language attached to it whenever it's mentioned. It is described as an abomination.

Moreover, there are at least two stories where men are trapped inside to escape other men from having sex with them, and these men offer up women in their place telling the men it is better to rape these women than have sex with a man.

The New Testament is pretty clear on the issue, even if some do engage in interpretive gymnastics to avoid it.
 
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Belk

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<SniP>

Moreover, there are at least two stories where men are trapped inside to escape other men from having sex with them, and these men offer up women in their place telling the men it is better to rape these women than have sex with a man.

The New Testament is pretty clear on the issue, even if some do engage in interpretive gymnastics to avoid it.


What moral clarity.
 
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Galdrun

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What do you mean, an LGBT lifestyle? If you mean engaging in homosexual sex, then yes I do.



I suppose moral intuition. As a Catholic I believe in Natural law and that we all have an innate ability to perceive right and wrong. But on issues such as this it can be difficult. I think the Bible is the best place to look for an authoritative answer.

I have actually been reading the Old Testament over the last few weeks from start to finish. I read the whole of Leviticus and Deuteronomy and one thing that struck me is that while they are full of laws (some that seem quite random to us), homosexuality has uncharacteristically strong language attached to it whenever it's mentioned. It is described as an abomination.

Moreover, there are at least two stories where men are trapped inside to escape other men from having sex with them, and these men offer up women in their place telling the men it is better to rape these women than have sex with a man.

The New Testament is pretty clear on the issue, even if some do engage in interpretive gymnastics to avoid it.

Hmmm... Interesting that you identify homosexual sex as sinful specifically. What of gay marriage? Would that be sinful, or simply unrecognized in the eyes of god? What, in your opinion, is the reason for homosexuality to exist? What of trans-gendered people? Intersex people, who were born with both male and female organs? Why does it matter that much what lifestyle people choose to lead if it harms nothing in the world (other than the violence these folks face, especially trans-gendered people)?

As for your views on natural law's observance, biologists find that more than 1/10th of the population of animals in the wild engage in homosexual behavior. What would be the reasoning for this? Also, when the bible says one thing vs. your own observances, do you defer to the bible? Does it make a difference to you if what the subject in question is from the old, or the new testament?

Sorry for all of the questions... Don't feel you have to answer them all. I just don't get the chance to talk to many catholics, so I enjoy the opportunity to get a little more insight - at least from your perspective. =)
 
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RestoreTheJoy

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Hmmm... I have to disagree. Life is full of sacrifice, IMO. If your significant other was in a car accident and was unable to have sex with you anymore, would you walk away from her?
Well, that is hardly a fair comparison. A car accident is not voluntary. Her deciding to be with other people - and open up to disease, feelings, all kinds of things that are not helpful for your relationship - is completely voluntary. (Maybe she has chosen not to do this. I don't know. It would be a deal breaker to me to be with someone who wants to be with other people).
 
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RestoreTheJoy

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just like being left handed or having blue eyes


except it is normal. it a normal variation on human sexuality. just like being left handed or having blue eyes are normal variations.
Not at all the same as intrinsic genetic traits. This is something one is tempted to do, not something one is.
 
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Phil 1:21

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just like being left handed or having blue eyes


except it is normal. it a normal variation on human sexuality. just like being left handed or having blue eyes are normal variations.
Except having blue eyes or being left handed are not abominations to God.
 
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RestoreTheJoy

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About half of gays and lesbians identify as Christian.



You know, it is possible to be both Christian and humanist. I would describe my own religious tradition as humanistic, in fact.

Lots of people who are engaging in sexual sin (molestation, perversions, adultery, etc) "identify as Christian". It means nothing. You can call yourself whatever you want but if you aren't doing what the Word of God commands you to do, you are a hearer of the Word only, deceiving yourself. But be doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving yourselves. James 1:22

"And by this we know that we have come to know him, if we keep his commandments. Whoever says “I know him” but does not keep his commandments is a liar, and the truth is not in him" 1 John 2:3

You know what the Word of God says in several places about homosexuality. No need to repeat them all here.
 
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Galdrun

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Well, that is hardly a fair comparison. A car accident is not voluntary. Her deciding to be with other people - and open up to disease, feelings, all kinds of things that are not helpful for your relationship - is completely voluntary. (Maybe she has chosen not to do this. I don't know. It would be a deal breaker to me to be with someone who wants to be with other people).

Well, I've actually picked her brain on the subject quite a bit, and her feelings are absolutely involuntary as well (I don't know what reason she could have in lying to me about it). She hasn't actually been with other people, and hasn't done any of those things. Being a lesbian means that she has an attraction to women, not that she acts on that attraction. I have no worries about this any more than you might have of your wife (assuming you're a man) would cheat on you with another guy, or that you would immediately cheat on your wife because you find someone attractive. We are faithful to each other, and we don't have any desire to be with anyone else.

To your point, though, it's absolutely involuntary from what I've experienced in knowing her (and other gay/lesbian folks). She has felt this way for as long as she's remembered, just like I've been attracted to women for as long as I've remembered.
 
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RestoreTheJoy

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Well, I've actually picked her brain on the subject quite a bit, and her feelings are absolutely involuntary as well (I don't know what reason she could have in lying to me about it). She hasn't actually been with other people, and hasn't done any of those things. Being a lesbian means that she has an attraction to women, not that she acts on that attraction. I have no worries about this any more than you might have of your wife (assuming you're a man) would cheat on you with another guy, or that you would immediately cheat on your wife because you find someone attractive. We are faithful to each other, and we don't have any desire to be with anyone else.

To your point, though, it's absolutely involuntary from what I've experienced in knowing her (and other gay/lesbian folks). She has felt this way for as long as she's remembered, just like I've been attracted to women for as long as I've remembered.

A passing thought is not voluntary but entertaining feelings is absolutely voluntary. Letting it take root, and identifying by it and speaking and believing it certainly is.

As a Christian, I am to "cast down imaginations and every high thing that exalts itself against the knowledge of God". I decide what takes root there and what I will not entertain. I am to be the master and not the slave of my feelings.

Heck yeah, being with someone who says, "Hey, you should know that I am attracted to (whatever I am not)" is a declaration that such feelings are indeed entertained and even absorbed as identifying characteristics. Not what I would want. That actually happened to me once (not this, but someone saying, "Hey I am really attracted to the opposite of you". Laughing now, remembering it, even as I type this. Thank you for that moment of clarity up front, person in my past. I've now been happily married for decades because I made a wise decision and that person would not have been wise.

Your mileage may vary.


"Finally, brethren, whatsoever things are true, whatsoever things are honorable, whatsoever things are just, whatsoever things are pure, whatsoever things are lovely, whatsoever things are of good report; if there be any virtue, and if there be any praise, think on these things."
Phillipians 4:8

(Not sure if we are in the Christian section or the "anyone debate" section right off hand without going to look, but this is my standard.)
 
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SilverBear

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Not at all the same as intrinsic genetic traits. This is something one is tempted to do, not something one is.
you don't need to do anything to be gay or to have blue eyes. you just are.

you are (i assume) a heterosexual, that is not something you are tempted to do. You were heterosexual before you fell in love or even had sex.

Being heterosexual is just like being right handed or having brown eyes.
 
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RestoreTheJoy

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you don't need to do anything to be gay or to have blue eyes. you just are.

you are (i assume) a heterosexual, that is not something you are tempted to do. You were heterosexual before you fell in love or even had sex.

Being heterosexual is just like being right handed or having brown eyes.

You keep asserting this.

There simply is no proof. There is no gene to determine this. Nothing at all.

Mere emphatic assertions do not constitute evidence, no matter how vehemently repeated.

And your final assertion is a falsehood as well. Any of us, given certain circumstances and experiences, could end up in such a situation, though we cannot imagine it now. Prison is proof of that (and no, they aren't all violent situations of force; some are merely situational ones).

Heterosexuality is the biological imperative, like having two legs or two arms or one head.
 
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Mountainmanbob

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"Of all the sexual aberrations, celibacy is perhaps the most unnatural"

Well probably so but, Paul said it was a good thing for those that could pull it off but, most of us are going to have cravings one of those pretty ladies so best to take one on and remember it'll have its ups but, it'll also have its downs.

Even though I'm very sure Adam and Eve enjoyed their special moments together, it did not take them long to mess things up.

M-Bob
 
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SilverBear

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You keep asserting this.
Because it's true.

Orientation is independent of action. if this were not the case any and all virgins would not be hetero or homo or bi or anything at all. And since orientation involves emotional, romantic and/or sexual attractions i don't see how anyone would be interested in marriage or loosing their virginity or anything else.

There simply is no proof. There is no gene to determine this.
Nothing at all.

Mere emphatic assertions do not constitute evidence, no matter how vehemently repeated.
Yes there is a ton of evidence that one's orientation is inborn. Stomping your feet and making emphatic assertions that there isn't is just being dishonest. We've been down this road and historically you categorically reject any evidence that doesn't fit your personal views.

And your final assertion is a falsehood as well. Any of us, given certain circumstances and experiences, could end up in such a situation, though we cannot imagine it now.
What situation?

Prison is proof of that (and no, they aren't all violent situations of force; some are merely situational ones).
orientation is independent of activity.

gays and lesbians have hidden who they are by getting married. they didn't change who they are they were still gay, just not happy.

Many Lesbians conceive children by as one lesbian i know said: 'lay there and try to think about something else while the doner does his thing'. Do you think that for the couple minutes that lesbians was laying there thinking about England that they were briefly and magically transformed into heterosexuals?

Heterosexuality is the biological imperative, like having two legs or two arms or one head.
emphatic assertions do not constitute evidence
 
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Holoman

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Hmmm... Interesting that you identify homosexual sex as sinful specifically. What of gay marriage? Would that be sinful, or simply unrecognized in the eyes of god?

The act of getting married is morally neutral as I see it. I don't think same sex marriage is possible as anything other as a legal recognition. It's not a real marriage in the eyes of God.

What, in your opinion, is the reason for homosexuality to exist?

Who knows if there even is a reason. It would seem to be one of natures aberrations, like being born with too many toes, or any number of congenital defects.

What of trans-gendered people?

I see it as a separate issue to homosexuality. I don't really have any problem with people acting as if they are a different sex if that helps their mental well-being. But I'd say if someone born a man has sex with another born a man, then that is sinful, regardless of whether either are transgender.

Intersex people, who were born with both male and female organs?

No idea. Never really given much thought to who they're allowed to marry and have sex with. It would probably depend heavily on the individual circumstances.

Why does it matter that much what lifestyle people choose to lead if it harms nothing in the world (other than the violence these folks face, especially trans-gendered people)?

Firstly, even if I grant it does no harm in the world, that doesn't mean it isn't sinful. I'm not (and Christians in general aren't) utilitarian.

Secondly, when it comes to homosexuality, you'd have a difficult (if not impossible) time proving it does no harm. How do we measure it? There are clear instances where it does, for example STDs are more easily transmitted through anal sex than vaginal.

As for your views on natural law's observance, biologists find that more than 1/10th of the population of animals in the wild engage in homosexual behavior. What would be the reasoning for this?

I'm using Natural Law in the Catholic sense, which isn't really as simple as it's in nature therefore it's ok. As I said before, I don't know if there even is a reason for the existence of homosexuality other than it being a byproduct of some random mutations along the line.

Also, when the bible says one thing vs. your own observances, do you defer to the bible?

It depends on the specific issue, but generally yes, as we all have our inherent bias of what we want to believe is right. The Bible isn't always clear though, and on some issues I have no idea.

For Catholics there is also the authority of the Church and its teachings, which we view as authoritative as scripture. Personally, I tend to give less weight to this though.

Does it make a difference to you if what the subject in question is from the old, or the new testament?

Yes, quite a big difference. The NT trumps the OT, and the coming of Jesus essentially made the Mosaic Law obsolete and instead he provided a more comprehensive and superior law. The OT is still quite useful and interesting and much of it is reaffirmed in the NT. It is mostly descriptive rather than prescriptive though. Like in the example I mentioned before about people offering women to be raped instead of men. It's describing what happened rather than what you should do in that situation.

Sorry for all of the questions... Don't feel you have to answer them all. I just don't get the chance to talk to many catholics, so I enjoy the opportunity to get a little more insight - at least from your perspective. =)

No problem. :)

I read more of the description of your relationship and it would seem to me that if you're both happy with the arrangement and are being faithful to one another then I can't see that either of you is doing anything wrong.
 
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