On Salvation

[Lotar]

Lotar,
The saved Christian has his/her flabber gusted when they ask Jesus personally, when did we see You imprisoned etc.
Do you think people under the sacrificial Law were saved by works that entitled them to heaven or faith in that little innocent bleeding Lamb?

No more than one is saved by baptism.

 

[Lotar]

Hebrews 9:15-17 clearly shows that Jesus' testament (or will) could not go into effect until his death. Therefore, the thief on the cross clearly lived under the law of Moses.

First a request. Could you change to a more readable color?

Second, how do you know whether the thief died before or after Jesus? Considering how quickly Jesus died, he most like did die after Him.

Third, the thief died without performing the rituals required in the OT. So, if he was saved under the old covenant, then why would he not under the new covenant? Did Jesus not come to free us from the law?

What did the apostle Peter tell those Jews to do who realized their guilt in the crucifixion of God's Son (Acts 2:38)?

What message did Jesus commission his apostles to take to every creature (Mk. 16:16)?

What did the eunuch desire to do after Philip preached Jesus to him (Acts 8:35-39)?

Repent and be baptized. But the bible also says repent, without the baptism part.
Mark 6:12
They went out and preached that men should repent.
Luke 13:5
"I tell you, no, but unless you repent, you will all likewise perish."
[size=-1]Acts 11:18
When they heard this, they quieted down and glorified God, saying, "Well then, God has granted to the Gentiles also the repentance that leads to life."
[size=-1]2 Corinthians 7:10
For the sorrow that is according to the will of God produces a repentance without regret, leading to salvation, but the sorrow of the world produces death.
[/size][/size]
[size=-1]
When you are saved you are commanded to be baptized. If a person willingly refuses to be baptized, then they truely have not repented. But if a person repents, but dies before they have the oppertunity to be baptized, it will not matter.[/size]

 

[A Brethren IN CHRIST]

Brethren in Christ,
Are we coming any closer into the unity of faith?
If loving obedience and following Jesus Christ, our General, is called works, than I say Yes! It is keeping our salvation alive and dragging others with us.
Paul compared the christian race one of fittness and struggle, and he had not yet attained.

?

Have you ever read

romans 4:2 For if abraham were justifified by works, he hath whereof to glory; But not before God.

Bema seat judgement
1 cor 3:15 if any man's [good] works shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.


Great white throne judgement
Rev 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God, and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were writtened in the books, according to their works.

vs 14 they were cast into the lake of fire


I am glad my works will not get me into heaven but

romans 4:5 Him that worketh not but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness....

why JC is the perfect sacrifice he did all the work for are past present and future salavation

 

[FreeinChrist]

Dance,

While I can appreciate what you are trying to do, FreeinChrist will have to speak for herself. As you probably have imagined, I am not injured at all by Free's charge. I am not angry, and I am not running away. She is reading the posts. She may respond if she chooses.

I am not as confident as you that Free meant no harm. I believe she fully intended to discredit my teaching and stand for Christ. Her approach is called a red herring. Instead of dealing with the reasoning, she launched a personal attack. This is not a new approach. The Pharisees used it against Jesus in Matthew 12:22-24. Her use of scripture shows a certain degree of knowledge, but her actions also show a certain degree of spiritual immaturity. I was disappointed that she bowed out so fast. I gained much from our study. I will review her points in bible classes and sermons as I have opportunity.

FC

First, you are right - Dance does not speak for me. I find the fact that you and Dance are discussing me online...odd. And immature. I believe that Dance is sincerely trying to make peace, though I am not at all angry, just saddened.

But you are wrong that I meant you harm. No - I hope that you see your error. Perhaps blasphemy was the wrong word - but the word is close to what I saw in your posts. Posting the whole quote would not have changed my response that followed. I believe that you went off on a tangent that is unscriptural, and I still do believe that. I was going to stop posting, so that you didn't go farther into error in defending your stance.

And I am not the Pharisee, FC - the Pharisees were really into works of the Law for salvation.

I believe I made a strong case that faith is not a 'work' as James refers to works, that we are saved by grace through faith in Jesus Christ, the author and perfector of our faith, and not of ourselves, that salvation is not at our whim, but very much the work of God - who draws, grants, gives, cleanses forgives, renews regenerates, seals, qualifies us, adopts as heirs, makes us alive - all after we believe HIS work, which is the plan of salvation realized in Jesus Christ. And I will stick with what scripture says.

 

[FreeinChrist]

Second, how do you know whether the thief died before or after Jesus? Considering how quickly Jesus died, he most like did die after Him.

Read John 19:31-33 - Jesus died first and the other two had to have their legs broken so that they would die before sunset and the beginning of the Sabbath. When Christ died, the veil in the temple was torn - the veil that separated man from the mercy seat of God.

Third, the thief died without performing the rituals required in the OT. So, if he was saved under the old covenant, then why would he not under the new covenant? Did Jesus not come to free us from the law?

Agree. We aren't told that the thief or his family offerred a guilt sacrifice - he wasn't covered under the Old Covenant.

 

[Lotar]

Read John 19:31-33 - Jesus died first and the other two had to have their legs broken so that they would die before sunset and the beginning of the Sabbath. When Christ died, the veil in the temple was torn - the veil that separated man from the mercy seat of God.


Agree. We aren't told that the thief or his family offerred a guilt sacrifice - he wasn't covered under the Old Covenant.

Thanks, I forgot about that verse

 

[Florida College]

You mentioned Jn. 12:42 as an example of people who believed in Christ, but you say “something else was needed”, i.e. their faith did not save. Look at the context, and you will see why they did not believe, Jesus plainly tells us these men rejected Him, they loved the praise of men more than God. (John 12:48 NIV) There is a judge for the one who rejects me and does not accept my words; that very word which I spoke will condemn him at the last day.” So clearly the text in John is in no way a support for baptismal regeneration.

Blessings

Ken,

Here is another obvious difference in the way we reason from scripture. I read in John 12:42-42 that the rulers believed in Jesus, but would not confess him. On the other hand, you say that they did not believe. Why should I accept what you say over what the scripture says? Doesn’t verse 43 say that the rulers believed?

John 12:42-43 clearly points out that there is more involved in salvation than just faith alone. If faith alone is all that is required, the rulers would have pleased God - - they had faith. But they did not please God. Therefore, I conclude that salvation involves more than faith alone. I was not trying to use this verse to show that baptism was necessary - - just that salvation does not come by faith alone.

FC

 

[Florida College]

First, you are right - Dance does not speak for me. I find the fact that you and Dance are discussing me online...odd. And immature. I believe that Dance is sincerely trying to make peace, though I am not at all angry, just saddened.

I believe that Dance is very sincere. That is really not the issue. You are very well entitled to your opinion of me and my level of maturity.

But you are wrong that I meant you harm. No - I hope that you see your error. Perhaps blasphemy was the wrong word - but the word is close to what I saw in your posts. Posting the whole quote would not have changed my response that followed. I believe that you went off on a tangent that is unscriptural, and I still do believe that. I was going to stop posting, so that you didn't go farther into error in defending your stance.

You just have to accept that I am entitled to my own opinion. Let me know if you have any scriptural support to justify the downgraded charge of "perhaps blasphemy." So, everyone that doesn't see eye to eye with you is "off on a tangent." You know, I think the more you write, the more you shouldn't write.

And I am not the Pharisee, FC - the Pharisees were really into works of the Law for salvation.

I didn't say that you were a Pharisee. Just that you used one of their tactics.

I believe I made a strong case that faith is not a 'work' as James refers to works, that we are saved by grace through faith in Jesus Christ, the author and perfector of our faith, and not of ourselves, that salvation is not at our whim, but very much the work of God - who draws, grants, gives, cleanses forgives, renews regenerates, seals, qualifies us, adopts as heirs, makes us alive - all after we believe HIS work, which is the plan of salvation realized in Jesus Christ. And I will stick with what scripture says.

I don't think that you have made any such case. Faith is commanded just as repentance, confession, and baptism are commanded. They are requirements that we must do - - we must do - - God does not do them for us. What is it called when God commands, and we don't obey him? If I'm not mistaken, I believe that is called disobedience. I have yet to see any scriptural reasoning that defines baptism as a work, but faith, repentance, and confession as something else. Rather, I find that Jesus sent his apostles to preach the gospel to every creature, telling them to . . . well, you know the verse - - Mk. 16:16. I also read that repentance and baptism was commanded in Acts 2:38 for the remission of sins. I read in Gal. 3:27 that baptism puts one into Christ, where one can contact the blood of Christ (Eph.1:7). It is in baptism that one is born again (Rom. 6:3-11). The apostle Peter said that baptism in water . . . saves us (1 Pet. 3:20-21) - - no, not by itself - - and not without God's grace and mercy. Baptism is just one commandment of God that is required for salvation. Who are we to ignore, or downplay the importance of it? The apostle Paul said that baptism washes away sins (Acts 22:16). He also wrote Eph. 2:8-9. He also wrote Gal. 2:16. But, "all Scripture is given by the inspiration of God." God was not giving statements that contradicted each other. Rather, they harmonize well. Those who believed, and gladly accepted God's word were baptized in Acts 2:41. Why were they baptized? "For" the remission of sins in Acts 2:38 - - to have their sins washed away in Acts 22:16 - - to be saved in 1 Pet. 3:20-21. There are those who talk about faith, and there are those who act upon their faith (James 2:14-26). We are encouraged to imitate those who acted upon their faith (Heb. 11 - Heb. 12:2). Even Jesus obeyed the Father (Heb. 5:8). Why shouldn't we obey God's will (Matt. 7:21, Heb. 5:9)? After obedience, has anyone earned salvation? Definitely not! The Christian's attitude should be as described in Luke 17:10, "So likewise you, when you have done all those things which you are commanded, say, 'We are unprofitable servants. We have done what was our duty to do.'" Now, I don't see anyone earning salvation, or having something to boast about.

I don't believe I am on any more of a tangent than the apostle Paul was in Acts 26:24-25.

FC

 

[danceforjoy]

Florida College,
We cannot possibly make our doings the Savior from sin. Faith that works by love etc. is only a vehicle that communicates the Gospel of what Jesus achieved for us, to us.
What sets us apart from Catholicism and Hari Krishna, is that we do not add anything, or any of the seven sacraments to our salvation which is complete in Christ.
If we start to offer any sort of payment to the gift of God, it is no longer free.
Either we pay for our sins or Jesus Christ, there is no middle ground.
All other things follow the believer after we have looked at the bleeding Lamb of God long enough.
I make no apology for quoting Paul's high-folutin theology that you highlighted for all of us. If it wasn't for Paul, we all could agree and speak the same things. 2.Peter 3:16 "As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understod".-first part.
Baptism, tithe paying, faith etc. is all part of God's plan and we include it in the plan of salvation, but it is not the Gospel of righteousness by faith alone.
I pray that Free in Christ will responsed to you in a positive and reconciliative tone. In heaven, we all have to live together peacefully.

 

[Florida College]

Florida College,
We cannot possibly make our doings the Savior from sin. Faith that works by love etc. is only a vehicle that communicates the Gospel of what Jesus achieved for us, to us.
What sets us apart from Catholicism and Hari Krishna, is that we do not add anything, or any of the seven sacraments to our salvation which is complete in Christ.
If we start to offer any sort of payment to the gift of God, it is no longer free.
Either we pay for our sins or Jesus Christ, there is no middle ground.
All other things follow the believer after we have looked at the bleeding Lamb of God long enough.
I make no apology for quoting Paul's high-folutin theology that you highlighted for all of us. If it wasn't for Paul, we all could agree and speak the same things. 2.Peter 3:16 "As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understod".-first part.
Baptism, tithe paying, faith etc. is all part of God's plan and we include it in the plan of salvation, but it is not the Gospel of righteousness by faith alone.
I pray that Free in Christ will responsed to you in a positive and reconciliative tone. In heaven, we all have to live together peacefully.

Dance,

There must be somewhat of a language barrier here. Leave no doubt in your mind, I firmly believe that Jesus paid the complete price for sin (1 Peter 1:18-19 ; Heb. 9:12). But I also accept that we must obey Him (Heb. 5:9). After we render obedience to the Lord, we haven't done anything to pay for our sins - - the Lord did that without our help.

I still don't agree with your terminology i.e. "Paul's high-folutin theology." Is that what Peter called it in 2 Peter 3:16? No, he doesn't. Rather, Peter mentions that Paul wrote "according to the wisdom given to him" (vs. 15) - - "in which are some things hard to understand". . . (vs. 16). Paul's teaching was not according to man, but came through the revelation of Christ (Gal. 1:11-12). It is not because of Paul that things get twisted around - - it is because there are those who are "untaught" and "unstable" (vs. 16). The fault does not solely lie in Paul's teaching, because those headed for destruction will also twist the "rest of the Scriptures" (vs. 16).

I am glad to hear that your son turned from the allurement of the world to be mindful of the Lord once again. I have two sons, both of which are faithful to the Lord. I pray that I continue to be an encouragement to them both.

On a personal note, two of my favorite movies are based on the story of an young man coming of age in Australia. The movies are The Man From Snowy River and Return to Snowy River. I love both the scenery and the music.

And, if you ever run into the Crocodile Hunter (I think his name is Steve Irwin), you'd better watch out. It seems that he always has something close by that has really big teeth or is very deadly.

FC

 

[FreeinChrist]

You just have to accept that I am entitled to my own opinion. Let me know if you have any scriptural support to justify the downgraded charge of "perhaps blasphemy." So, everyone that doesn't see eye to eye with you is "off on a tangent." You know, I think the more you write, the more you shouldn't write.

ah....you aren't above being insulting yourself, FC. I was trying to be nice and not use another word. And I already provided the scripture in this thread to support my position and why salvation by works and grace is in error. And I believe that all who look at scripture and think it says our works equal grace and the blood of Christ in regards to salvation has a problem in regards to discernment.

But if you are looking for an apology of the comment about blasphemy –sorry, but it is what I believe.

I didn't say that you were a Pharisee. Just that you used one of their tactics.

And I hope you picked up on the point that they valued their works and missed out in other areas.

I don't think that you have made any such case. Faith is commanded just as repentance, confession, and baptism are commanded. They are requirements that we must do - - we must do - - God does not do them for us.

Well, you are free to disagree, FC. But I made my case that James did not regards 'faith' as a 'work', otherwise the passage that says 'faith without works" makes no sense - in English or Greek!

And 'faith', belief', and repent' are feelings - like 'love' - it is not what we do but what we feel. I am not disputing that faith , belief and repentence are necessary - but they are not 'works', and scripture clearly says we are saved by grace through faith in Jesus Christ. "not of ourselves' means not of ourselves.

Baptism is a comand for believers - and it is worthless unless one truly believes, and God accepts them. I haven't seen the scripture that really contradicts that it is the outward sign of an inward change.

John baptized unto repentence - do you really think those baptised were not repentant BEFORE the baptism? That the water made them more repentant?

What about the phrase "baptized unto Moses"? I'll stick with the theologians who believe that this phrase adds to the fact that baptism is an outward identification with something - in the Christian's case, it is with Jesus Christ. But the repentence and belief and faith came first - as did salvation.

 

[FreeinChrist]

I also read that repentance and baptism was commanded in Acts 2:38 for the remission of sins.

and I already addressed this with you at least three times - look again at what I wrote above and in posts before that it is to publicly identify oneself with Jesus Christ - which makes the most sense as the Jews of that day would have understood it. Again - it was not the water that John baptized with that made folks repentant!

I read in Gal. 3:27 that baptism puts one into Christ, where one can contact the blood of Christ (Eph.1:7).

uh???contact with His blood? hmmmm.. let's look at the verses:

Gal 3:26 For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus.
Gal 3:27 For all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ.

Eph 1:7 In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of His grace

In the context of these passages, that one is baptized into Christ means that we are identified with Christ (clothed) - as one is identified with the baptism of John, or 'baptized unto Moses', and not that in water baptism, we come into contact with Christ's blood. I'm sorry, FC, but it looks as though you are pulling out scriptures and not applying them in context.

It is in baptism that one is born again (Rom. 6:3-11).

Again, it means we are identified with Jesus Christ - His death, burial and resurrection. Not that the water saved us. And we are born again when we are born of the Spirit - renewed and regenerated by the Holy Spirit:

Tts 3:5 He saved us, not on the basis of deeds which we have done in righteousness, but according to His mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit,
Tts 3:6 whom He poured out upon us richly through Jesus Christ our Savior,
Tts 3:7 so that being justified by His grace we would be made heirs according to {the} hope of eternal life.

And this does not happen unless God looks into our hearts and minds and sees that we are truly believeing and repentent – then He grants it to us to come to Christ and gives us to Christ, and seals us with the Holy Spirit!

The apostle Peter said that baptism in water . . . saves us (1 Pet. 3:20-21) - - no, not by itself - - and not without God's grace and mercy.

1Pe 3:21 Corresponding to that, baptism now saves you--not the removal of dirt from the flesh, (HINT – water baptism!) but an appeal to God for a good conscience--through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,
1Pe 3:22 who is at the right hand of God, having gone into heaven, after angels and authorities and powers had been subjected to Him.

Baptism is just one commandment of God that is required for salvation.

No – it is a command for believers to show in an outward way that an inward change occurred. A public profession of faith. It is an ordinance like communion.

Who are we to ignore, or downplay the importance of it?

Who are we to give mere water equal importance to the blood of Christ?!? Rather, I expect God wants us to search the scriptures and understand why the act of baptism is commanded – and to recognize that we are saved by His grace through faith!

The apostle Paul said that baptism washes away sins (Acts 22:16).

And in the context of this passage, it - ‘baptizo’ - means to baptize or immerse in or wash with water in token of purification from sin and from spiritual pollution. Now read Acts 9: 17-18. Paul regained his sight and received the Holy Spirit before he was baptized (the outward sign of an inward change that already occurred)

He also wrote Eph. 2:8-9.

Right! So then you must harmonize this passage with what ever else he said or wrote. I don’t see that you have done this. Paul also wrote:

Rom 4:2 For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God.Rom 4:3 For what does the Scripture say? "ABRAHAM BELIEVED GOD, AND IT WAS CREDITED TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS."
Rom 4:4 Now to the one who works, his wage is not credited as a favor, but as what is due.
Rom 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness,
Rom 4:6 just as David also speaks of the blessing on the man to whom God credits righteousness apart from works:

He also wrote Gal. 2:16. But, "all Scripture is given by the inspiration of God." God was not giving statements that contradicted each other. Rather, they harmonize well.

correct – and I do not see that your teachings harmonize with the Word of God. Abraham had faith – Paul says he was credited as righteousness by faith – apart from works. James does not write as if ‘faith’ is a work – but that 'faith without works' is dead. Paul wrote we are saved by grace through faith – not of ourselves. But you are contradicting all of this and ignoring the context of baptism as an outward identification with Jesus Christ. THAT is why I believe you have gone off on a tangent – making Ephesians 2:8-9 say something different than it is.

 

[danceforjoy]

> >George Carlin's latest...
> >
> >1. If you take an Oriental person and spin him around several times,
> >does he become disoriented?
>
> >2. If people from Poland are called Poles, why aren't people from
> >Holland called Holes?
>
> >3. Why do we say something is out of whack? What's a whack?

>
> >5. If a pig loses its voice, is it disgruntled?
>
> >6. If love is blind, why is it so popular?
>
> >7. When someone asks you, "A penny for your thoughts", and you put your
> >two cents in, what happens to the other penny?
>
> >8. Why is the man who invests all your money called a broker?
>
> >9. Why do croutons come in airtight packages? It's just stale bread to
> >begin with?
>
> >10. When cheese gets its picture taken, what does it say?
>
> >11. Why is a person who plays the piano called a pianist but a person
> >who drives a race car not called a racist?
>
> >12. Why are a wise man and a wise guy opposites?
>
> >13. Why do overlook and oversee mean opposite things?
>
> >14. Why isn't the number 11 pronounced onety one?
>
> >15. "I am" is reportedly the shortest sentence in the English language.
> >Could it be that "I do" is the longest sentence?
>
> >16. If lawyers are disbarred and clergymen defrocked doesn't it follow
> >that electricians can be delighted, musicians denoted, cowboys deranged,
> >models deposed, tree surgeons debarked, and dry cleaners depressed?
>
> >17. If Fed Ex and UPS were to merge, would they call it Fed UP?
>
> >18. Do Lipton Tea employees take coffee breaks?
>
> >19. What hair color do they put on the driver's licenses of bald men?
>
> >20. I was thinking about how people seem to read the Bible a whole lot
> >more as they get older, then it dawned on me - they're cramming for their
> >final exam!
>
> >21. I thought about how mothers feed their babies with tiny little
> >spoons and forks so I wondered, what do Chinese mothers use ? Toothpicks?
>
> >22. Why do they put pictures of criminals up in the Post Office? What
> >are we supposed to do, write to them? Why don't they just put their
> >pictures on the postage stamps so the mailmen could look for them while
they delivered
> >the mail?
>
> >23. If it's true that we are here to help others, then what exactly are
> >others here for?
>
> >24. You never really learn to swear until you learn to drive.
>
> >25. No one ever says, "It's only a game", when their team is winning.
>
> >26. Ever wonder what the speed of lightning would be if it didn't
> >zigzag?
>
> >27. Last night I played a blank tape at full blast. The mime next door
> >went nuts!!!
>
> >28. If a cow laughed, would milk come out her nose?

FC, We live very close to Steve Irvin and his Australia Zoo is only half an hour from us. Only hope that none of his crok's ever gets out and visits me.

 

[A Brethren IN CHRIST]

?????

 

[Florida College]

ah....you aren't above being insulting yourself, FC. I was trying to be nice and not use another word. And I already provided the scripture in this thread to support my position and why salvation by works and grace is in error. And I believe that all who look at scripture and think it says our works equal grace and the blood of Christ in regards to salvation has a problem in regards to discernment.

But if you are looking for an apology of the comment about blasphemy –sorry, but it is what I believe.

So, now I am insulting because I draw attention to the fact that your original charge of blasphemy was downgraded (?) to a charge of perhaps blasphemy. You are correct, I did not recognize at all that you were trying to be nice. When will you stop trying to throw things off-track with the red herrings?

I was not looking for . . . am not looking for . . . and will not be looking for an apology from you. I believe that you believe what you believe. I also believe that what you believe does not meet the Lord’s approval, therefore, your belief will incur some serious consequences i.e. lawlessness (Matthew 7:23).

Does the Greek word dikaioo (justify) appear in James 2:21, 24, & 25? Does the same word dikaioo (justify) also appear in Titus 3:7 and Romans 5:9?

And I hope you picked up on the point that they valued their works and missed out in other areas.

Well, you are free to disagree, FC. But I made my case that James did not regards 'faith' as a 'work', otherwise the passage that says 'faith without works" makes no sense - in English or Greek!

And 'faith', belief', and repent' are feelings - like 'love' - it is not what we do but what we feel. I am not disputing that faith , belief and repentence are necessary - but they are not 'works', and scripture clearly says we are saved by grace through faith in Jesus Christ. "not of ourselves' means not of ourselves.

Baptism is a comand for believers - and it is worthless unless one truly believes, and God accepts them. I haven't seen the scripture that really contradicts that it is the outward sign of an inward change.

John baptized unto repentence - do you really think those baptised were not repentant BEFORE the baptism? That the water made them more repentant?

What about the phrase "baptized unto Moses"? I'll stick with the theologians who believe that this phrase adds to the fact that baptism is an outward identification with something - in the Christian's case, it is with Jesus Christ. But the repentence and belief and faith came first - as did salvation.

James 2:26 makes perfectly good sense. Rather than viewing faith and works as being separate and opposed to each other, we should view faith and works as working together. What better way to help us put faith in perspective, than to realize that faith is also a work i.e. something that we do (John 6:28-29). When we believe in the Lord, we should do what he says. See, that wasn’t so hard, was it?

Now, I am confused. You say that you believe that salvation comes by grace through faith, but now you are trying to slip in repentance. Why leave out confession? Jesus didn’t (Matthew 10:32-33). Paul didn’t (Romans 10:9-10). And, the eunuch didn’t leave it out when he became a Christian (Acts 8:35-39). When you leave confession out, you end up like the rulers in John 12:42.

Does the phrase “not of ourselves” mean that we don’t have to obey the Lord’s requirements for salvation (Hebrews 5:9 ; 2 Thessalonians 1:8)?

Agreed. Baptism is a command for believers (Mark 16:16; Acts 10:47-48 ; Acts 22:16). Agreed. Baptism is worthless unless one believes (Mark 16:16 ; Acts 8:36-37). Somewhere (?), you seem to have found the scripture that says baptism is an outward sign of an inward change. Does Mark 16:16 say that is what belief and baptism are for? Does Acts 2:38 say that is what repentance and baptism are for? What does Acts 22:16 say that baptism does for us? What does 1 Peter 3:20-21 say that baptism does for us? The answers to all these questions does not agree with what you’re saying. Why not just accept what the scripture says that shows us where the inward change really takes place (Romans 6:3-11)?

John said, “I indeed baptize you with water unto (Greek preposition eis) repentance" (Matthew 3:11). This is the same Greek word that is used in Acts 2:38 - - repentance and baptism for (eis) the remission of sins, the same word used in Matthew 26:28 - - “My blood . . . which is shed . . . for (eis) the remission of sins,” and the same word that appears in Romans 4:5 - - “Faith is accounted for (eis) righteousness.” Therefore, if repentance preceded John’s baptism, the remission of sins preceded repentance and baptism, the remission of sins precedes the shedding of Jesus’ blood, and righteousness preceded faith. Personally, I don’t care much for those conclusions. I prefer to accept the reading and meaning of these passages that say - - John’s baptism was unto (eis) repentance, repentance and baptism are for (eis) the remission of sins, Jesus’ blood was shed for (eis) the remission of sins, and faith is accounted for (eis) righteousness.

No, I don’t think the water made them more repentant. Neither do I think that there was any more leprosy cleansing power in the Jordan River than the waters of the Abanah or Pharpar Rivers. Whether or not one chooses to obey makes all the difference (2 Kings 5:1-14). When God wills or commands, who are we to disagree (Romans 9:18-24).

The phrase “baptized into (Greek preposition eis) Moses is found in 1 Corinthians 10:2. Moses was Israel’s “ruler and deliverer” (Acts 7:35). In a sense, the Israelites were baptized into (eis) Moses. Nevertheless, as the events progressed they did not end up pleasing God (1 Cor. 10:5-12). The Corinthians had been baptized (Acts 18:8) into (eis) Christ (Galatians 3:27), their ruler and deliverer. They needed to be aware of the Israelites’ fall from faithfulness, and not follow their example. That is what Paul in pointing out.

Agreed. Faith comes before baptism (Mk. 16:16 ; Acts 8:35-39). Agreed. Repentance comes before baptism (Acts 2:38). Disagree - - salvation does not come before baptism (Mk. 16:16 ; Acts 2:38). Are you saying that salvation comes before one's sins are washed away (Acts 22:16)? In baptism, one becomes "alive to God in Christ Jesus our Lord" (Rom. 6:11) - - so, what is one's condition before baptism?

 

[Florida College]

20. I was thinking about how people seem to read the Bible a whole lot
more as they get older, then it dawned on me - they're cramming for their final exam!

Dance,

This point is one that is worth considering seriously.

Did you know that Christian's really shouldn't fly?

Jesus said, "Lo, I am with you alway." (KJV - Matt. 28:20).

FC

 

[A Brethren IN CHRIST]

haromonizing with James 2


Romans 4:2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God



FC try it some time

 

[danceforjoy]

I just found out why some people believe why baptism is un-necessary! They belong to the "Covenent Theology" which I studied last night for almost two hours only to find out ot the end of it, that there is a "New Covenant Theology" which disagrees with the old. I started to wonder, could they boyt be right or wrong?
The old one apperently incorporates dispensationalism which I can easily refute. The new seems a little confused or at least confusing to me.

I take it on the authority of Jesus who gave us the gospel commission including the baptism requirement which the Covenenting Christian did not mention ones. I bet that they are baptized just to make sure!

The gist of it is, that someone here mentioned before, that the thief on the cross belonged to the old law or old covenant. But I take it from Jesus who tells me otherwise, namely, that the Law and the Prophets were until John the Baptist (Luke 16:16).
The only group refusing Baptism from John, three and a half years before the cross, were the Pharisee's saying they were not sinners and therefore did not have to wash away their sins.

This sure puts me at odds with Covenant Theology.

 

[Florida College]

First a request. Could you change to a more readable color?

Second, how do you know whether the thief died before or after Jesus? Considering how quickly Jesus died, he most like did die after Him.

Who died first is irrelevant. Jesus granted pardon to the thief before either of them died (Luke 23:43). You and FreeinChrist concluded that the thief was pardoned under the new covenant. This this not true according to Hebrews 9:15-17. Have you considered Matthew 9:6, “But that you may know that the Son of Man has power on earth to forgive sins?” Consider the context of Matthew chapter 9: Jesus forgave the paralytic’s sins in verse 1. What covenant was in effect then? Did the Lord have the authority to do this? Did he have the authority to do the same for the thief on the cross? Both were under the O.T. What terms does the Lord give for salvation under the gospel of Christ? This is the real question.

If the thief on the cross was saved under the new covenant, then the other N.T. scriptures would harmonize with the doctrine of salvation by “faith only.” Do they? Is repentance not also required (Luke 13:3,5 ; Acts 2:38 ; Acts 17:30)? Is confession not also required (Matthew 10:32-33 ; Romans 10:9-10 ; Acts 8:35-39)? Is baptism not also required (Mark 16:16 ; Acts 2:38 ; Acts 22:16)? I don’t see any agreement with the doctrine of salvation by “faith alone” and these teachings of the Lord and his apostles.

Third, the thief died without performing the rituals required in the OT. So, if he was saved under the old covenant, then why would he not under the new covenant? Did Jesus not come to free us from the law?

Repent and be baptized. But the bible also says repent, without the baptism part.
Mark 6:12
They went out and preached that men should repent.
Luke 13:5
"I tell you, no, but unless you repent, you will all likewise perish."
[size=-1]Acts 11:18
When they heard this, they quieted down and glorified God, saying, "Well then, God has granted to the Gentiles also the repentance that leads to life."
[size=-1]2 Corinthians 7:10
For the sorrow that is according to the will of God produces a repentance without regret, leading to salvation, but the sorrow of the world produces death.
[/size][/size]
[size=-1]

Good. You are thinking. So, how do you harmonize these passages so that they agree? You can’t just accept some, and disregard others - - “All scripture is given by inspiration of God” (2 Timothy 3:16).

Consider Acts 2:38: Peter gives the command to repent and be baptized for the remission of sins. Why doesn’t he tell them they need to have faith? Is faith required or not? Yes (Hebrews 11:6), it is. Those Jews that were convicted of crucifying Jesus, asked a question in Acts 2:37. This question showed their belief in the teaching - - they asked what they needed to do. Because they believed, Peter tells them what to do next in verse 38.

Repent is from the Greek word “metanoeo.” It is defined as “to change one’s mind for the better” (Strong’s). When Jesus sent out the twelve in Mark 6:7, “They went out and preached that people should repent” (vs. 12). While it is true that baptism is not mentioned in verse 12, it is also true that faith is not mentioned in the verse. What would you conclude from that? The preaching of the apostles was to provoke people to change their minds for the better - - or, in other words, to accept Jesus. Likewise, Jesus urged the people to repent in Luke 13:3,5 - - he even said it twice to emphasize the importance of it. 2 Corinthians 7:10 offers comments on how godly repentance works. Acts 11:18 is a statement made by Jewish Christians after hearing Peter’s account of the events of Acts 10. It should be noted that Acts 11:18 sums up the conversion of Cornelius and his household as “repentance.” We should also note that their repentance included baptism in water (Acts 10:47-48).

When you are saved you are commanded to be baptized. If a person willingly refuses to be baptized, then they truely have not repented. But if a person repents, but dies before they have the oppertunity to be baptized, it will not matter.[/size]

Lotar,

Were is the command to be baptized after you are saved? In Acts 2:38? No, not there. It says to repent and be baptized or the remission of sins. In Acts 22:16? No, not there. It says to be baptized and wash away your sins, calling on the name of the Lord. How, about Mark 16:16? Surely it is a part of the great commission that Jesus sent his apostles to teach everywhere. No, it’s not there either. It says he who believes and is baptized will be saved. Where is the passage that commands us to be baptized after we are saved?

FC

 

[FreeinChrist]

So, now I am insulting because I draw attention to the fact that your original charge of blasphemy was downgraded (?) to a charge of perhaps blasphemy. You are correct, I did not recognize at all that you were trying to be nice. When will you stop trying to throw things off-track with the red herrings?

I believe you missed the mark, FC. It was the sentence: "You know, I think the more you write, the more you shouldn't write." that I was referring to. And it is rather silly to keep accusing me of 'red herrings' - when you seem to work very hard NOT to respond to points made to you.

I also believe that what you believe does not meet the Lord’s approval, therefore, your belief will incur some serious consequences i.e. lawlessness (Matthew 7:23).

So you are now judging my faith, suggesting I will be going to hell? Shame on you, FC.

Now I absolutely believe that what you teach - which truthfully is salvation by grace and works - is not what is taught in the Bible, and that clearly our salvation is "not of ourselves." Maybe it is you who will be told "I never knew you" ....but that is between you and God and not a decision of mine.

James 2:26 makes perfectly good sense. Rather than viewing faith and works as being separate and opposed to each other, we should view faith and works as working together. What better way to help us put faith in perspective, than to realize that faith is also a work i.e. something that we do (John 6:28-29). When we believe in the Lord, we should do what he says. See, that wasn’t so hard, was it?

I don't compromise in my interpretations to appease a need to fit scripture into a preset theological view. Our works reflect our faith, and our faith is strengthened by doing the works that God has prepared for us (perfecting us). But James separates works and faith as 2 different things that go together. What he refers to as works are things like not gossiping, feeding the hungry, clothing the poor, and not showing favortism. And Paul also separates the 2 and clearly wrote that we are saved by grace through faith in Jesus Christ - not of ourselves. And I already posted lots and lots of scriptures that show that salvation is a work of God.

Now, I am confused. You say that you believe that salvation comes by grace through faith, but now you are trying to slip in repentance.

If ever I needed proof that you didn't really read what I have written, this is it. Pages ago I discussed that we are drawn by God (John 6) And that He does not grant it to us to come to Christ unless, looking into our hearts and mind, He sees that we truly believe and are truly repentant. THEN He grants it to us, and gives us to Christ (both John 6). He also, at that time, forgives, cleanses us (qualifying us), makes us new, having sealed us with the Holy Spirit who renews and regenerates, having adopted us as sons of God. Actually, I have posted this many times. To feel sorrowful and regretful of our sin, truly repenting, again is not a work. Confession is a part of repentence - it doesn't have to be said to a priest, or even expressed in words - it has to be in the heart!

Does the phrase "not of ourselves" mean that we don’t have to obey the Lord’s requirements for salvation (Hebrews 5:9 ; 2 Thessalonians 1:8)?

You know, I studied Hebrews last winter/spring for 15 weeks, and amd now in another class dealing with the second half of Hebrews - and do not see that Hebrews requires water baptism for salvation.I have already repeatedly posted that baptism is an ordinance for believers - as an outward sign of an inward change. But to harmonize all of scripture and what Jesus said, I do not see that water cleanses our sins away.

We are going in a circle here, FC. You are basically saying the same things - and ii will be giving you the same answers.

You write: What does 1 Peter 3:20-21 say that baptism does for us?

And I will respond with the verses it self - highlighting that which contradicts what you are claiming: 1Pe 3:20 who once were disobedient, when the patience of God kept waiting in the days of Noah, during the construction of the ark, in which a few, that is, eight persons, were brought safely through {the} water.
1Pe 3:21 Corresponding to that, baptism now saves you--not the removal of dirt from the flesh, but an appeal to God for a good conscience--through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,

Did you even read what I wrote? Do you see the bold section of the verse - that refers to water baptism. It is the baptism of the Holy Spirit that saves - which renews and regererates us.

You write:Does Mark 16:16 say that is what belief and baptism are for? Does Acts 2:38 say that is what repentance and baptism are for? What does Acts 22:16 say that baptism does for us?

I will respond, again, as I have many times. CONTEXT. Baptism is a an identification with something. What does "baptised unto Moses" mean to you? You don't seem to respond to that.

Why not just accept what the scripture says that shows us where the inward change really takes place (Romans 6:3-11)?

I do - why don't you?
Hbr 10:16 "THIS IS THE COVENANT THAT I WILL MAKE WITH THEM AFTER THOSE DAYS, SAYS THE LORD: I WILL PUT MY LAWS UPON THEIR HEART, AND ON THEIR MIND I WILL WRITE THEM," {He then says,}
Hbr 10:17 "AND THEIR SINS AND THEIR LAWLESS DEEDS I WILL REMEMBER NO MORE."

Col 2:10 and in Him you have been made complete, and He is the head over all rule and authority; Col 2:11 and in Him you were also circumcised with a circumcision made without hands, in the removal of the body of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ;

Col 2:13 When you were dead in your transgressions and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He made you alive together with Him, having forgiven us all our transgressions,
Col 2:14 having canceled out the certificate of debt consisting of decrees against us, which was hostile to us; and He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross.

Tts 3:5 He saved us, not on the basis of deeds which we have done in righteousness, but according to His mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit,
Tts 3:6 whom He poured out upon us richly through Jesus Christ our Savior,
Tts 3:7 so that being justified by His grace we would be made heirs according to {the} hope of eternal life.

Eph 1:13 In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation--having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise,
Eph 1:14 who is given as a pledge of our inheritance, with a view to the redemption of {God's own} possession, to the praise of His glory.

I will deal with 'justify' in the next post. But I want to be sure and point out that we are not saved on the basis of deeds done in righteousness - this includes water baptism!