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FreeinChrist

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Florida College said:
Who says that faith is not a work? Did Jesus say that (John 6:28-29)? Who said that water baptism does not save? Did Peter say that (1 Pet. 3:20-21)?
Who said that water baptism is only the outward indication of an inward change? What did Jesus say baptism was for in Mark 16:16?
Now regarding water baptism -
1Pe 3:20 who once were disobedient, when the patience of God kept waiting in the days of Noah, during the construction of the ark, in which a few, that is, eight persons, were brought safely through {the} water.
1Pe 3:21 Corresponding to that, baptism now saves you--not the removal of dirt from the flesh, but an appeal to God for a good conscience--through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,
This is not saying that water baptism saves you. This is speaking of a spiritual change.

You know what is interesting about Mark 16:16 - the last 11 verses of Mark do not appear til later copies of the Bible. They aren't in any of the earliest manuscripts. And they aren't quoted by any of the early church fathers. Most every other verse of the NT is quoted - but not those last 11 verses of Mark. hmmm
So will I believe a verse in those last 11 verses over the rest of what scripture tells me? nope. It must comply with scripture as a whole.


One last thing about the faith/works thing - Paul repeatedly compares works to faith, and works comes up short. And note - that he sees them as two separate things. As in faith is not works. It's a comparison seen in Galatians, and Romans and elsewhere.
Rom 9:30 What shall we say then? That Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, attained righteousness, even the righteousness which is by faith;
Rom 9:31 but Israel, pursuing a law of righteousness, did not arrive at {that} law.
Rom 9:32 Why? Because {they did} not {pursue it} by faith, but as though {it were} by works. They stumbled over the stumbling stone,
Rom 9:33 just as it is written, "BEHOLD, I LAY IN ZION A STONE OF STUMBLING AND A ROCK OF OFFENSE, AND HE WHO BELIEVES IN HIM WILL NOT BE DISAPPOINTED."

Rom 11:6 But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works, otherwise grace is no longer grace.
Rom 4:1 What then shall we say that Abraham, our forefather according to the flesh, has found?
Rom 4:2 For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God.
Rom 4:3 For what does the Scripture say? "ABRAHAM BELIEVED GOD, AND IT WAS CREDITED TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS."
Rom 4:4 Now to the one who works, his wage is not credited as a favor, but as what is due.
Rom 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness,



 
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Rechtgläubig

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1Pe 3:21 Corresponding to that, baptism now saves you

This is not saying that water baptism saves you.
:confused:

This is speaking of a spiritual change.

Exactly! Not a cerimonial washing like the Jews had to do and it isn't about washing dirt from your body.

It must comply with scripture as a whole.

Good idea!

16And now what are you waiting for? Get up, be baptized and wash your sins away, calling on his name. (Acts 22:16)

5Jesus answered, "I tell you the truth, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless he is born of water and the Spirit. 6Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit gives birth to spirit. (John 3:5-6)

25Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her 26to make her holy, cleansing her by the washing with water through the word, 27and to present her to himself as a radiant church, without stain or wrinkle or any other blemish, but holy and blameless. (Ephesians 5:25-27)


Faith and baptism are works, but they are works of God not man. Baptism is not about what we are doing, it is about what God does to us. -sola Gratia!

 
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FreeinChrist said:
Now regarding water baptism -
1Pe 3:20 who once were disobedient, when the patience of God kept waiting in the days of Noah, during the construction of the ark, in which a few, that is, eight persons, were brought safely through {the} water.
1Pe 3:21 Corresponding to that, baptism now saves you--not the removal of dirt from the flesh, but an appeal to God for a good conscience--through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,
This is not saying that water baptism saves you. This is speaking of a spiritual change.


Look at the 1 Pet. 3:21 again. Does it not say, "There is also an antitype which now saves us, namely baptism?" (NKJV)

FreeinChrist said:
You know what is interesting about Mark 16:16 - the last 11 verses of Mark do not appear til later copies of the Bible. They aren't in any of the earliest manuscripts. And they aren't quoted by any of the early church fathers. Most every other verse of the NT is quoted - but not those last 11 verses of Mark. hmmm
So will I believe a verse in those last 11 verses over the rest of what scripture tells me? nope. It must comply with scripture as a whole.

While I am aware that that some manuscripts did not contain the verses you mentioned, I am not aware that these verses do not comply with scripture as a whole. For instance, Mark 16: 16 harmonizes (or agrees) with Acts 2:38, Acts 8:35-39, and Col. 2:12.


FreeinChrist said:
One last thing about the faith/works thing - Paul repeatedly compares works to faith, and works comes up short. And note - that he sees them as two separate things. As in faith is not works. It's a comparison seen in Galatians, and Romans and elsewhere.
Rom 9:30 What shall we say then? That Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, attained righteousness, even the righteousness which is by faith;
Rom 9:31 but Israel, pursuing a law of righteousness, did not arrive at {that} law.
Rom 9:32 Why? Because {they did} not {pursue it} by faith, but as though {it were} by works. They stumbled over the stumbling stone,
Rom 9:33 just as it is written, "BEHOLD, I LAY IN ZION A STONE OF STUMBLING AND A ROCK OF OFFENSE, AND HE WHO BELIEVES IN HIM WILL NOT BE DISAPPOINTED."

Rom 11:6 But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works, otherwise grace is no longer grace.
Rom 4:1 What then shall we say that Abraham, our forefather according to the flesh, has found?
Rom 4:2 For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God.
Rom 4:3 For what does the Scripture say? "ABRAHAM BELIEVED GOD, AND IT WAS CREDITED TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS."
Rom 4:4 Now to the one who works, his wage is not credited as a favor, but as what is due.
Rom 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness,



Free,

Read James 2:14-26 and tell us that works are not necessary.

Fill in the blank:
" _____ Scripture is given by inspiration of God . . . " (2 Tim. 3:16-17).

James 2 is as much a part of scripture as the verses you listed are. The understanding of all of these verses must harmonize. If it doesn't, God' word is not at fault. The fault lies in the person's understanding.

I believe James 2:14-26. I also believe Rom. 9:30-33, Rom. 11:6, & Rom. 4:1-5.
But the understanding that I derive from those verses must also agree with my understanding of James 2. If it doesn't, I can rest assured that I have messed up somewhere. To illustrate, if I chose to believe that these passages teach that no works are necessary for salvation, then I run into a real problem when I read John 6:28-29 and determine that faith is a work. I also run into a problem when I read Matt. 7:21-23 and realize that God expects me to do "his will." Realizing that something was amiss in my understanding, I would be compelled to examine the verses that you mentioned in more detail. Understanding the context of the verses, I would conclude that Rom. 4:1-5 is discussing works under the law of Moses. The same law is being discussed in Rom. 9:30-33. The same law is also being discussed in Rom. 11:6. My conclusion from these verses is that the law of Moses does not lead us to please God today.

FC
 
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Rechtgläubig said:

:confused:


Exactly! Not a cerimonial washing like the Jews had to do and it isn't about washing dirt from your body.


Good idea!

16And now what are you waiting for? Get up, be baptized and wash your sins away, calling on his name. (Acts 22:16)

5Jesus answered, "I tell you the truth, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless he is born of water and the Spirit. 6Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit gives birth to spirit. (John 3:5-6)

25Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her 26to make her holy, cleansing her by the washing with water through the word, 27and to present her to himself as a radiant church, without stain or wrinkle or any other blemish, but holy and blameless. (Ephesians 5:25-27)


Faith and baptism are works, but they are works of God not man. Baptism is not about what we are doing, it is about what God does to us. -sola Gratia!

I posted the scripture that faith is not works, how they are contrasted. I notice you do not reposnd to that, but just make the claim that faith is works. As you haven't backed it up - I'll stick with the scriptures.

Now regarding water baptism, no - it doesn't save. You are really taking the verses out of their entire context. John the Baptist understood that we will be saved through a spiritual baptism when he said:
Mat 3:11 "As for me, I baptize you with water for repentance, but He who is coming after me is mightier than I, and I am not fit to remove His sandals; He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire.
John baptized with water - and it did not remove a speck of sin, did it? It is because it was to be an outward show of repentence. And a picture of a future event - the death, burial of Christ, and His rising up from death to life. Salvation starts with repentence - which is why Christ was baptised to begin His ministry, and for the reason stated below.

Paul baptised very few people - and don't you think he would have water baptised all that he could if he beleived it was necessary for salvation????? But he understood that it was a spiritual baptism that saved.
Tts 3:4 But when the kindness of God our Savior and {His} love for mankind appeared,
Tts 3:5 He saved us, not on the basis of deeds which we have done in righteousness, but according to His mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit,
Tts 3:6 whom He poured out upon us richly through Jesus Christ our Savior,
Tts 3:7 so that being justified by His grace we would be made heirs according to {the} hope of eternal life.


You can be dipped repeatedly in water and never be saved - it is the spiritual change caused by the Holy Spirit that saves. The point of water baptism is to show WHO you identify with. In I Cor. 10:2, those who came out of Egypt are referred to as having been "baptized unto Moses" - they wre identified with the purpose of Moses. Were they dipped or sprinkled with water? NO Yet the same word is used for baptized in this verse as in the ones you provided. When Jesus was baptized by John, it was not because He needed to repent, but to identify with John tht He was the Messiah.

Again in Romans 6, it is not the water bptism that saves - it just illustrates our identification with Christ who died, was buried, and raised again to eternal life.

THAT is what I mean when I refer to interpreting scripture in light of ALL of scripture.
 
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Florida College said:
Look at the 1 Pet. 3:21 again. Does it not say, "There is also an antitype which now saves us, namely baptism?" (NKJV)
You didn't read what I wrote, did you?
1Pe 3:20 who once were disobedient, when the patience of God kept waiting in the days of Noah, during the construction of the ark, in which a few, that is, eight persons, were brought safely through {the} water.
1Pe 3:21 Corresponding to that, baptism now saves you--not the removal of dirt from the flesh, but an appeal to God for a good conscience--through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,

I'll spell it out to you again - it is not the removal of dirt (water baptism) that saves you, but an appeal to God for a good conscience (spiritual circumcism - spiritual renewal and regeneration - removal of sin - spiritual cleansing). Seems clear to me!
To claim that this verse says water baptism saves is a true abuse of scripture.


While I am aware that that some manuscripts did not contain the verses you mentioned, I am not aware that these verses do not comply with scripture as a whole. For instance, Mark 16: 16 harmonizes (or agrees) with Acts 2:38, Acts 8:35-39, and Col. 2:12.
It is not in the earliest manuscripts. And those 11 verses have been the basis of some false teachings - like you must speak in tongues to be saved, or you must handle snakes and be bit and survive to prove your salvation ( a rather extreme group that hasn't had much growth - happily).
the evidence if there that Mark did not write them. And they are also the 11 verses not quoted by any early church father - all the rest of the NT is quoted - not those 11 verses.

And I believe that what I already wrote to you and to another show that the baptism spoken of that saves is spiritual, and that water baptism shows the inner change. Col. 2:12, in fact, harmonizes with what I wrote. We are spiritually baptized into His death and resurrection. Studying the Greek helps to show this.



Free,

Read James 2:14-26 and tell us that works are not necessary.
Define necessary as to what. Necessary to be saved? No. We are saved by grace through faith in Jesus Christ. But our faith is reflected in our works - our behaviour, attitudes, deeds. If we live a life of habitual sin, then no, we don't have the faith that saves.

Fill in the blank:
" _____ Scripture is given by inspiration of God . . . " (2 Tim. 3:16-17).
Now you are being patronizing and offensive - a sure sign tha you are having difficulty supporting your position.
I wil ask YOU to fill in that blank. Why do you ignore Ephesians 2?
James 2 is as much a part of scripture as the verses you listed are. The understanding of all of these verses must harmonize. If it doesn't, God' word is not at fault. The fault lies in the person's understanding.

I believe James 2:14-26. I also believe Rom. 9:30-33, Rom. 11:6, & Rom. 4:1-5.
But the understanding that I derive from those verses must also agree with my understanding of James 2. If it doesn't, I can rest assured that I have messed up somewhere. To illustrate, if I chose to believe that these passages teach that no works are necessary for salvation, then I run into a real problem when I read John 6:28-29 and determine that faith is a work. I also run into a problem when I read Matt. 7:21-23 and realize that God expects me to do "his will." Realizing that something was amiss in my understanding, I would be compelled to examine the verses that you mentioned in more detail. Understanding the context of the verses, I would conclude that Rom. 4:1-5 is discussing works under the law of Moses. The same law is being discussed in Rom. 9:30-33. The same law is also being discussed in Rom. 11:6. My conclusion from these verses is that the law of Moses does not lead us to please God today.

FC
So you choose to measure all the rest of scripture by your interpretation of James 2...instead of letting all of scripture harmonize together, interpreting James 2 in light of all of scripture. Then I can't help you. If you can't see the spiritual meaning behind baptism, and how salvation is by grace through faith, and can't see how God has shown mercy from Genesis 1:1 on...I can't help you.

Paul clearly separates "works" from "faith" - whether those works are of the Law or otherwise. Part of the reason for the law was to show that we can never be good enough to earn salvation - our works are inadequate. We need the Saviour - we need His grace to be saved!!! If you miss that important message of the Bible, then you will misunderstand alot else!
 
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danceforjoy said:
What Law was the thief on the cross under ? Answer: the Gospel ! "The Law and the prophets were until John (the baptist 27a.d.); since that time (John the baptist time) the Kingdom of God is preached, and every man presses into it." (Lk16:16). danceforjoy

Dance,

Let's see how well you can waltz to Heb. 9: 15-17. Seriously, if you don't mind, explain the passage.

Lk. 16:16 and Heb. 9:15-17 will harmonize. If they don't, an understanding is wrong somewhere.

FC
 
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FreeinChrist said:
You didn't read what I wrote, did you?

Well, I thought I did. But since you seem to know better, now I'm not sure.

FreeinChrist said:
1Pe 3:20 who once were disobedient, when the patience of God kept waiting in the days of Noah, during the construction of the ark, in which a few, that is, eight persons, were brought safely through {the} water.
1Pe 3:21 Corresponding to that, baptism now saves you--not the removal of dirt from the flesh, but an appeal to God for a good conscience--through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,

I'll spell it out to you again - it is not the removal of dirt (water baptism) that saves you, but an appeal to God for a good conscience (spiritual circumcism - spiritual renewal and regeneration - removal of sin - spiritual cleansing). Seems clear to me!
To claim that this verse says water baptism saves is a true abuse of scripture.


". . . Eight souls, were saved through water. There is also an antitype which now saves us, namely baptism . . . " (1 Pet. 3:20-21 - NKJV). That is a direct quote from the last part of vs. 20 and the first part of vs. 21. The verse says that there is some sense in which baptism saves. That is explained in the latter part of vs. 21 - - "the answer of a good conscience toward God though the resurrection of Jesus Christ" (NKJV). If there is an abuse of scripture, feel free to complain to God (2 Tim. 3:16a).

FreeinChrist said:
It is not in the earliest manuscripts. And those 11 verses have been the basis of some false teachings - like you must speak in tongues to be saved, or you must handle snakes and be bit and survive to prove your salvation ( a rather extreme group that hasn't had much growth - happily).
the evidence if there that Mark did not write them. And they are also the 11 verses not quoted by any early church father - all the rest of the NT is quoted - not those 11 verses. ]

I don't feel compelled to write off the last 11 verses of Mark. I don't teach or practice any of the false teachings that you mention that are based on those verses. Acts 2:38 is just one of many verses that would tell us that you don't have to speak in tongues to be saved. Matt. 4:5-7 teaches a principle that the snake handlers should learn. If I chose to disregard all passages that folks can create false teachings from, then there wouldn't be any scriptures left. Who are the early church fathers that you are alluding to? And can you confidently say that they approved of every verse in the N.T. except the last 11 verses of Mark.

FreeinChrist said:
And I believe that what I already wrote to you and to another show that the baptism spoken of that saves is spiritual, and that water baptism shows the inner change. Col. 2:12, in fact, harmonizes with what I wrote. We are spiritually baptized into His death and resurrection. Studying the Greek helps to show this.

I do not deny the spiritual significance of baptism (Rom. 6:3-11). But what does Peter, under the direction of the Holy Spirit, tell the Jews to do in Acts 2:38? What is their benefit if they do what Peter commands them (vs. 38)? And, what did those that gladly receive his word do (vs. 41)?

FreeinChrist said:
Define necessary as to what. Necessary to be saved? No. We are saved by grace through faith in Jesus Christ. But our faith is reflected in our works - our behaviour, attitudes, deeds. If we live a life of habitual sin, then no, we don't have the faith that saves.

Since grace has been extended to all (Titus 2:11), and all will not be saved (Matt. 7:13-14, then your doctrine, in essense, is salvation by faith? I hate to sound like a broken record, but is that what Peter taught in Acts 2:38? No, it is not. Why not? There clearly is something wrong with this picture. Either an apostle of the Lord empowered with the Holy Spirit was wrong in what he told the Jews to do, or someone's interpretation of Eph. 2:8-9 is wrong. I'll let each reader decide for themselves.

FreeinChrist said:
Now you are being patronizing and offensive -a sure sign tha you are having difficulty supporting your position.
I wil ask YOU to fill in that blank. Why do you ignore Ephesians 2?
So you choose to measure all the rest of scripture by your interpretation of James 2...instead of letting all of scripture harmonize together, interpreting James 2 in light of all of scripture. Then I can't help you. If you can't see the spiritual meaning behind baptism, and how salvation is by grace through faith, and can't see how God has shown mercy from Genesis 1:1 on...I can't help you. ]

I think it helps sometimes to let people look at the verses themselves, rather than just tell them what the verse says. That was my only logic. If you think that I'm struggling to answer you, then stick around and see how well the reasoning stands up. I firmly am convinced that the truth is not hurt by examination. People's feelings may get hurt, but the truth will not be hurt at all. If I am wrong, then be patient enough to expose the error.

I was not aware that I am avoiding Eph. 2:8-9. I think I understand what the verses say. If I conclude that no works are necessary for salvation, then I will have a major problem with John 6:28-29, Matt. 7:21-23, and James 2:14-26. I don't recall you having much to say about those verses in James. Surely, you wouldn't be avoiding them? My salvation does not rest on James 2. But, I am not willing to disregard James 2. James 2 and Eph. 2 harmonize well if I realize that he is discussing two totally different kinds of works. Works of boasting will not benefit my efforts to get to heaven, but works of obedience (note James 2:21-23 - - What were Abraham's works? He obeyed God (Gen. 22) are absolutely necessary (Heb. 5:9).


FreeinChrist[color=#000080 said:
Paul clearly separates "works" from "faith" - whether those works are of the Law or otherwise. Part of the reason for the law was to show that we can never be good enough to earn salvation - our works are inadequate. We need the Saviour - we need His grace to be saved!!! If you miss that important message of the Bible, then you will misunderstand alot else![/color]

Free,

I agree that Paul separated "faith" from "works of the law", and "faith" from "works of boasting," but did he separate "faith" from "obedience to his other commands:"
repentance (Lk. 13:3,5 ; Acts 2:38 ; Acts 17:30
confession (Matt. 10:32-33 ; Acts 8:35-39 ; Rom. 10:9
baptism (Mk. 16:16 ; Acts 2:38,41 ; Acts 8:12 ; Acts 8:35-39 ; Acts 10:47-48 ; Acts 16:31-33 ; & Acts 22:16?

FC
 
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The Bible is clear that it is not the works that saves us but that we are saved by GRACE through faith. The faith we are speaking of here is not just a belief but a kind of faith the will produce works. This is what James speaks about and what Paul tells us many times.
Do we have to do good works? Yes and no. No because we are saved through faith and by GRACE ALONE. But yes because the faith that we are saved through is a faith that will produce good works if possible. The thief on thecross is a good example of one who had faith but he really did not have time to do any works. If he had time he would of done some good works because God would of given him the grace through his faith to do so.

So we are saved by the Grace of God alone. Nothing we do will save us.WE are not even saved by our faith. We are saved by God's grace through faith. This is what Luther and the other reformers taught.

Sola gratia- grace alone saves
sola fide- faith alone justifies
sola scriptura- scripture is self sufficent.
 
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Florida College said:
Well, I thought I did. But since you seem to know better, now I'm not sure.
No need to be snippy and offensive. Didn't I see a post by you complaining about others not being nice? I believe you need to take your own advice if so.

I don't feel compelled to write off the last 11 verses of Mark. I don't teach or practice any of the false teachings that you mention that are based on those verses. Acts 2:38 is just one of many verses that would tell us that you don't have to speak in tongues to be saved. Matt. 4:5-7 teaches a principle that the snake handlers should learn. If I chose to disregard all passages that folks can create false teachings from, then there wouldn't be any scriptures left. Who are the early church fathers that you are alluding to? And can you confidently say that they approved of every verse in the N.T. except the last 11 verses of Mark.
I don't write them off - but don't base my theology on them over other scripture. That is why it is important to look at the message over all.
As for the Early Church Fathers - like Clement, and Justin Martyr, and Polycarp, and Hippolypus and Eusebius and Iranaeus, etc (many of whom were martyrs) - all in the first, second, third, fourth century - their writings have been examined for centuries and centuries. And I can confidently say that they quoted all of the NT except 11 verses. Like they weren't even there. And again, those 11 verses are not in the oldest manuscripts. Something to keep in mind when arguing against another scripture using them.

I do not deny the spiritual significance of baptism (Rom. 6:3-11). But what does Peter, under the direction of the Holy Spirit, tell the Jews to do in Acts 2:38? What is their benefit if they do what Peter commands them (vs. 38)? And, what did those that gladly receive his word do (vs. 41)?
Acts 2:38 - have you bothered to check out the Greek for this verse? Considered the context - the situation? Literally translated, it means 'Repent, and be baptized for the purpose of identifying you with the remission of sins' - similar to " all were baptized unto Moses" as found in I Cor. 10:2. Again - it isn't the water baptism that saves, it is the repentence. And the situation is Pentecost Day - the first day that believers received the Holy Spirit!

Since grace has been extended to all (Titus 2:11), and all will not be saved (Matt. 7:13-14, then your doctrine, in essense, is salvation by faith? I hate to sound like a broken record, but is that what Peter taught in Acts 2:38? No, it is not. Why not? There clearly is something wrong with this picture. Either an apostle of the Lord empowered with the Holy Spirit was wrong in what he told the Jews to do, or someone's interpretation of Eph. 2:8-9 is wrong. I'll let each reader decide for themselves.
Do you understand that we need a Saviour because there is no way we can earn our salvation?
There is no conflict between Acts 2:38 and Ephesians 2:8-9 as I have interpreted it. Salvation is by grace through faith in Jesus Christ. It was by faith that the OT saints got a good report. (Hebrews 11) It was because Abraham believed God would keep His promise of the Seed that he was accounted righteous back in Genesis 15. Salvation has always been by grace through faith. The law didn't remove sin, or perfect, or change a person!

I was not aware that I am avoiding Eph. 2:8-9. I think I understand what the verses say. If I conclude that no works are necessary for salvation, then I will have a major problem with John 6:28-29, Matt. 7:21-23, and James 2:14-26.

I already addressed John 6:28-29. WHOSE work is it? Look at the verses:
Jhn 6:28 Therefore they said to Him, "What shall we do, so that we may work the works of God?"
Jhn 6:29 Jesus answered and said to them, "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent."

Does this verse mean we are saved by grace and OUR works? NO. Salvation is the work of God. It is God who draws us, who grants it to us to come to Christ, who gives us to Christ after seeing the true intent of the heart. Read the whole chapter and note these verses:
Jhn 6:37 "All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will certainly not cast out.

Jhn 6:44 "No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day.
Jhn 6:45 "It is written in the prophets, 'AND THEY SHALL ALL BE TAUGHT OF GOD.' Everyone who has heard and learned from the Father, comes to Me.


Jhn 6:65 And He was saying, "For this reason I have said to you, that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted him from the Father."



Other verses that describe God's work of salvation:
Col 1:12 giving thanks to the Father, who has qualified us to share in the inheritance of the saints in Light.

Hbr 10:14 For by one offering He has perfected for all time those who are sanctified.
Hbr 10:15 And the Holy Spirit also testifies to us; for after saying,
Hbr 10:16 "THIS IS THE COVENANT THAT I WILL MAKE WITH THEM AFTER THOSE DAYS, SAYS THE LORD: I WILL PUT MY LAWS UPON THEIR HEART, AND ON THEIR MIND I WILL WRITE THEM," {He then says,}
Hbr 10:17 "AND THEIR SINS AND THEIR LAWLESS DEEDS I WILL REMEMBER NO MORE."


Do you realize that under the new covenant - God changes us?? What didn't happen under the old that happens under the new is that God gives us hearts of flesh, having taken out the hearts of stone. He changes us.

Col 2:10 and in Him you have been made complete, and He is the head over all rule and authority; Col 2:11 and in Him you were also circumcised with a circumcision made without hands, in the removal of the body of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ;

Col 2:13 When you were dead in your transgressions and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He made you alive together with Him, having forgiven us all our transgressions,
Col 2:14 having canceled out the certificate of debt consisting of decrees against us, which was hostile to us; and He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross.


Tts 3:5 He saved us, not on the basis of deeds which we have done in righteousness, but according to His mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit,
Tts 3:6 whom He poured out upon us richly through Jesus Christ our Savior,
Tts 3:7 so that being justified by His grace we would be made heirs according to {the} hope of eternal life.

Eph 1:13 In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation--having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise,
Eph 1:14 who is given as a pledge of our inheritance, with a view to the redemption of {God's own} possession, to the praise of His glory.

2Cr 1:21 Now He who establishes us with you in Christ and anointed us is God,
2Cr 1:22 who also sealed us and gave {us} the Spirit in our hearts as a pledge

Do you see what God's work is in regards to salvation??
GOD draw, grants, gives, forgives, cleanses, qualifies, perfects, writes His law on our hearts and in our minds, forgets our sin, seals us with the Holy Spirit, makes us alive in Him, regenerates, renews, cancels the debt, establishes us in Christ, anoints us, pledges by giving us the Holy Spirit, He makes us heirs, adopting us as sons - NOT on the basis of the works we have done but because when Jesus died on the cross, our sins were nailed to the cross! God Incarnate on the cross for us!

Jhn 6:47 "Truly, truly, I say to you, he who believes has eternal life.
Now was Jesus lying when He said this?




 
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FreeinChrist

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Florida College said:
I was not aware that I am avoiding Eph. 2:8-9. I think I understand what the verses say. If I conclude that no works are necessary for salvation, then I will have a major problem with John 6:28-29, Matt. 7:21-23, and James 2:14-26. I don't recall you having much to say about those verses in James. Surely, you wouldn't be avoiding them? My salvation does not rest on James 2. But, I am not willing to disregard James 2. James 2 and Eph. 2 harmonize well if I realize that he is discussing two totally different kinds of works. Works of boasting will not benefit my efforts to get to heaven, but works of obedience (note James 2:21-23 - - What were Abraham's works? He obeyed God (Gen. 22) are absolutely necessary (Heb. 5:9).
Actually I did. And you are mutilating Ephesians 2:8-9 by the phrase "works of boasting" – exactly WHAT works are those and where is it used in Eph. 2?

Look at what it says! "For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast."

We ARE saved by grace through faith and not by any of our works – it is a gift! IF we could something to provide salvation for ourselves, then we would be able to boast – but we can’t, we are totally dependent on GOD and HIS WORK OF SALVATION! Goodness – this is Christanity 101!


I agree that Paul separated "faith" from "works of the law", and "faith" from "works of boasting," but did he separate "faith" from "obedience to his other commands:"
repentance (Lk. 13:3,5 ; Acts 2:38 ; Acts 17:30
confession (Matt. 10:32-33 ; Acts 8:35-39 ; Rom. 10:9
baptism (Mk. 16:16 ; Acts 2:38,41 ; Acts 8:12 ; Acts 8:35-39 ; Acts 10:47-48 ; Acts 16:31-33 ; & Acts 22:16?

FC
What I have seen in your posts is that you do not read what the text actually says and that you mutilate the scripture to fit to James 2 as you understand it, and don’t consider context, situation or the overal plan of salvation seen by looking at the message as a whole. And no, you don’t seem to be reading my posts.

Now looking at the quote above, I see some obvious problems with your reasoning – one being that 'works of boasting' – what ever they are - is NOT referred to in Ephesians 2:8-9, just our works.

Two, you are trying to make a point that Paul does not separate faith from repentence and confession and baptism… and then use verses to back it up...and which don't follow the train of thought. Look at your support for this by using Acts 8:12 - "But when they believed Philip preaching the things concerning the kingdom of God, and the name of Jesus Christ, they were baptised, both men and women." Hmmmm…where is Paul in this verse, Florida? When I refer to Paul making a distinction between faith and works – I am referring to Paul’s writings.

And again, I do not see belief and faith as "works". The term 'works' is the Greek word 'ergon' and means performance, the result of emplyment, making or working.

But in any case, a person can claim to believe and may actually seem to initially, but it is God who grants salvtion and who gives it to us. It is not at our whim.
 
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danceforjoy

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Florida College said:
Dance,

Let's see how well you can waltz to Heb. 9: 15-17. Seriously, if you don't mind, explain the passage.

Lk. 16:16 and Heb. 9:15-17 will harmonize. If they don't, an understanding is wrong somewhere.

FC
Wow! Am I up against a complete institution of learning? Please God, Jesus and Mother of God help me!!! I think with God's help we can dance and harmonize these two scriptures.
The People of the old testament were saved the same way we are, if not, then we would have a divided heaven. Those saved by works would extol their own virtues getting themselves saved.
That men were not saved by works in the old testament is clearly stated by the apostle Paul: 'even as David also describes the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputes righteousness without works.' Romans 4:6 In David's time therefore, it is clear that men understood salvation by grace without the works of the law. Therefore we can easily harmonize Jesus'es words in Luke 16:16 that the Law was until john and the Ten Commandments Law keep on going, and Hebrews 9:15-17 which says that Jesus is the mediator of the new testament or covenant. He is the Lamb of God in the old as well as in the new that does the saving and not we ourselves.
Only now, the blood of God sealed both testaments or wills, and what a huge bargain He left us in His will, would you agree? (v.16,17).
 
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danceforjoy

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FreeinChrist said:
Actually I did. And you are mutilating Ephesians 2:8-9 by the phrase "works of boasting" – exactly WHAT works are those and where is it used in Eph. 2?

Look at what it says! "For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast."

We ARE saved by grace through faith and not by any of our works – it is a gift! IF we could something to provide salvation for ourselves, then we would be able to boast – but we can’t, we are totally dependent on GOD and HIS WORK OF SALVATION! Goodness – this is Christanity 101!


What I have seen in your posts is that you do not read what the text actually says and that you mutilate the scripture to fit to James 2 as you understand it, and don’t consider context, situation or the overal plan of salvation seen by looking at the message as a whole. And no, you don’t seem to be reading my posts.

Now looking at the quote above, I see some obvious problems with your reasoning – one being that 'works of boasting' – what ever they are - is NOT referred to in Ephesians 2:8-9, just our works.

Two, you are trying to make a point that Paul does not separate faith from repentence and confession and baptism… and then use verses to back it up...and which don't follow the train of thought. Look at your support for this by using Acts 8:12 - "But when they believed Philip preaching the things concerning the kingdom of God, and the name of Jesus Christ, they were baptised, both men and women." Hmmmm…where is Paul in this verse, Florida? When I refer to Paul making a distinction between faith and works – I am referring to Paul’s writings.

And again, I do not see belief and faith as "works". The term 'works' is the Greek word 'ergon' and means performance, the result of emplyment, making or working.

But in any case, a person can claim to believe and may actually seem to initially, but it is God who grants salvtion and who gives it to us. It is not at our whim.


work of faith 1.Thess.1:3 could be an odd quote of Paul. Sorry for budding in on you. dance.
 
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danceforjoy said:
work of faith 1.Thess.1:3 could be an odd quote of Paul. Sorry for budding in on you. dance.
Read on in the book because Paul commends the Thessalonians for their example and outreach ("For the word of the Lord has sounded forth from you..." vs 8). Our 'work of faith' is to reach out to other for Christ, to witness by example, to show the love of Jesus, etc. Our works reflect our faith, which is what James is saying when looking over the whole book.

Paul isn't saying that their "work of faith" saves them.
 
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Fiskare

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Florida College,

No, faith does not discard the necessity to obey the commandments of God.

The real issue here seems to be overlooked- that is, the definition of faith. Let's get to the bottom of the matter.

Luther again-

Faith is not what some people think it is. Their human dream
is a delusion. Because they observe that faith is not followed by
good works or a better life, they fall into error, even though they
speak and hear much about faith. ``Faith is not enough,'' they
say, ``You must do good works, you must be pious to be saved.''
They think that, when you hear the gospel, you start working,
creating by your own strength a thankful heart which says, ``I
believe.'' That is what they think true faith is. But, because
this is a human idea, a dream, the heart never learns anything
from it, so it does nothing and reform doesn't come from this
`faith,' either.

Instead, faith is God's work in us, that changes us and gives
new birth from God. (John 1:13). It kills the Old Adam and makes us
completely different people.
It changes our hearts, our spirits,
our thoughts and all our powers. It brings the Holy Spirit with
it. Yes, it is a living, creative, active and powerful thing, this
faith. Faith cannot help doing good works constantly.
It doesn't
stop to ask if good works ought to be done, but before anyone
asks, it already has done them and continues to do them without
ceasing. Anyone who does not do good works in this manner is an
unbeliever.
He stumbles around and looks for faith and good
works, even though he does not know what faith or good works are.
Yet he gossips and chatters about faith and good works with many
words.

Faith is a living, bold trust in God's grace, so certain of
God's favor that it would risk death a thousand times trusting in it.
Such confidence and knowledge of God's grace makes you happy,
joyful and bold in your relationship to God and all creatures. The
Holy Spirit makes this happen through faith. Because of it, you
freely, willingly and joyfully do good to everyone, serve
everyone, suffer all kinds of things, love and praise the God who
has shown you such grace. Thus, it is just as impossible to
separate faith and works as it is to separate heat and light from
fire!
Therefore, watch out for your own false ideas and guard
against good-for-nothing gossips, who think they're smart enough
to define faith and works, but really are the greatest of fools.
Ask God to work faith in you, or you will remain forever without
faith, no matter what you wish, say or can do.

So, the issue as to whether or not Abraham would have been justified if he had not obeyed God is a nonsense- because he was responding to God with the faith he already had. He would not have even considered sacrificing Issac unless he had the faith to trust God.

Luther- (from his commentary on Galatians, Ch 3- I've edited it a lot too)

Objections to the Doctrine of Faith Disproved


"Here we shall take the time to enter upon the objections which our opponents raise against the doctrine of faith. There are many passages in the Bible that deal with works and the reward of works which our opponents cite against us in the belief that these will disprove the doctrine of faith which we teach......In the eleventh chapter of the Epistle to the Hebrews we find a catalogue of various works and deeds of the saints of the Bible. David, who killed a lion and a bear, and defeated Goliath, is mentioned. In the heroic deeds of David the scholastic can discover nothing more than outward achievement. But the deeds of David must be evaluated according to the personality of David. When we understand that David was a man of faith, whose heart trusted in the Lord, we shall understand why he could do such heroic deeds......Before David could achieve a single heroic deed he was already a man beloved of God, strong and constant in faith.

Of Abel it is said in the same Epistle: "By faith Abel offered unto God a more excellent sacrifice than Cain." When the scholastics come upon the parallel passage in Genesis 4:4 they get no further than the words: "And the Lord had respect unto Abel and to his offering." "Aha!" they cry. "See, God has respect to offerings. Works do justify." With mud in their eyes they cannot see that the text says in Genesis that the Lord had respect to the person of Abel first. Abel pleased the Lord because of his faith. Because the person of Abel pleased the Lord, the offering of Abel pleased the Lord also. The Epistle to the Hebrews expressly states: "By faith Abel offered unto God a more excellent sacrifice."

In our dealings with God the work is worth nothing without faith, for "without faith it is impossible to please him." (Hebrews 11:6.) The sacrifice of Abel was better than the sacrifice of Cain, because Abel had faith.........."Do this and thou shalt live," means: First have faith in Christ, and Christ will enable you to do and to live.

.......Abraham was accounted righteous because faith pervaded his whole personality and his every action....

When you read how the fathers, prophets, and kings accomplished great deeds, remember to explain them as the Epistle to the Hebrews accounts for them: "Who through faith subdued kingdoms, wrought righteousness, obtained promises, stopped the mouths of lions." (Hebrews 11:33.) In this way will we correctly interpret all those passages that seem to support the righteousness of works. The Law is truly observed only through faith. ...



Supposing that this explanation will not satisfy the scholastics, supposing that they should completely wrap me up in their arguments (they cannot do it), I would rather be wrong and give all credit to Christ alone. Here is Christ. Paul, Christ's apostle, declares that "Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us." (Gal. 3:13.) I hear with my own ears that I cannot be saved except by the blood and death of Christ. I conclude, therefore, that it is up to Christ to overcome my sins, and not up to the Law, or my own efforts. If He is the price of my redemption, if He was made sin for my justification, I don't give a care if you quote me a thousand Scripture passages for the righteousness of works against the righteousness of faith. I have the Author and Lord of the Scriptures on my side. I would rather believe Him than all that riffraff of "pious" law workers. "
 
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Fiskare said:
Florida College,

Instead, faith is God's work in us, that changes us and gives
new birth from God. (John 1:13). It kills the Old Adam and makes us
completely different people.
It changes our hearts, our spirits,
our thoughts and all our powers. It brings the Holy Spirit with
it. Yes, it is a living, creative, active and powerful thing, this
faith. Faith cannot help doing good works constantly.
It doesn't
stop to ask if good works ought to be done, but before anyone
asks, it already has done them and continues to do them without
ceasing. Anyone who does not do good works in this manner is an
unbeliever.
He stumbles around and looks for faith and good
works, even though he does not know what faith or good works are.
Yet he gossips and chatters about faith and good works with many
words.

Great post! I like the definition of God's work in us, and that Luther gives all the credit to Christ. That was what I was trying to say when I wrote of God's work of salvation.
 
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Fiskare

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A Brethren IN CHRIST said:
Bottom line

are we saved by works James 2 as Florida says
or
are we saved by grace and mercy thru faith as Eph 2 says



salvation then works eph 2
or
works then salvation james 2 according to florida
Try salvation FOR good works. There is no point being saved (God's action, not ours) unless we respond by obeying and doing His commandments of good works (good works can only ever be done by faith anyway!) which He has ordained for us.

Eph 2:10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to good works, which God has before ordained that we should walk in them.
 
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Fiskare

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A Brethren IN CHRIST said:
talking what comes first not a bye product
Who said there was some kind of chronological order anyway? It's a mysterious action of God. Grace saves us, the means is faith. Grace comes first, but uses faith, and then we live the faith out. If anything, it's grace first, because only those foreordained to eternal life will believe (Acts 13:48), and the life of good works is the life of faith, any attempt at good works before faith (the gift of faith itself is an action of grace that God gives us) is filthy rags.

I think the analogy I gave in the other thread answers it best- a cow goes "moo" because it is a cow, not to become a cow. Hence, a Christian does good works because he has faith, not to get faith. He does good works because he is a christian, not to become one.
 
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