on harmonizing James with faith alone..

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Originally posted by Pastor Thunderchild
?

The Bible never says "faith alone", it says "faith".

In one place it says "you are saved by faith"
In another "you are saved by grace"
in another "you are saved by the gospel"

No problems arise until some numbnut adds "alone" to one of the statements.

Numbnut. Interesting word.

If it is not faith "alone" that saves us...then what PLUS faith saves us? Works? It does say we are saved by grace...THROUGH FAITH. And it is the Good News of Jesus Christ (the Gospel) that we are able to be saved at all...BY FAITH IN IT.

Just call me "Numbnut"
 
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InspectorVol

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Yes I can because that is what the bible says, unless you delete James from your bible. Does james not say that
faith without works is dead? Yes he does. This does not mean works take the place of grace because they can't.

Works by themselves do not save us because the bible says so. We are saved by grace and not of works lest any man
should boast. You believe that don't you? The bible also says we are saved by grace through our faith in God. You believe
that also don't you. Do you not also believe what James said about faith without works is dead? What works do for us is plain,
if we have works then we have a true faith in God, if we have no works then we have a dead faith and will be condemned.
Works by themselves are useless just as faith without works is useless, that is plainly written in the bible. Works will not directly save you
because grace does that, but works directly impact what kind of faith you have and how that faith is judged, therefore works have to be important
to us because of that. We can't simply proclaim 'I HAVE FAITH" and then do nothing and expect God to have mercy on us.
 
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Please tell me where it states that if my faith is dead, I am condemned. Or that I will be judged according to the kind of faith I have. That is plainly saying that my salvation hinges on the works that I do. If that is the case, then please tell me exactly how many works are enough to save me. If I don't do enough, then I go to hell, regardless of whether or not I have placed my trust in the atoning death of Jesus Christ on my behalf?

I do believe the book of James, as I do the rest of the Bible. I do not however, believe that what he is saying is that without works I am condemned.
 
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InspectorVol

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If you read these verses from james it plainly states what faith without works is worth to anyone, nothing. If you read the verse from Revelation then you see that we are judged
according to our works, good or bad. Do you remember the verse that says you are either for God or against him? When you apply that to works you are either working for God
or you are working against him.
Quote
"If that is the case, then please tell me exactly how many works are enough to save me. If I don't do enough, then I go to hell,
regardless of whether or not I have placed my trust in the atoning death of Jesus Christ on my behalf?"
I can't answer how many because I don't do the judging he does. If I had to guess I would say and this is my opinion you have to do enough to keep your faith
vibrant and alive and growing and not stagnet and lifeless with no works. We need to look at it like this, works are not burden to be borne by us, but a way to let
our faith in him grow as we see the good that comes as we do our works out of LOVE.
Let me say one other thing here: If we ever feel that good works are a burden on us then we have a serious problem with our faith,
because we should be glad to do things for others because we have God's love in our hearts.These are good example verses of some who did works and some who didn't and what Jesus thought about it:
Matthew:
25:34Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
25:35For I was an hungered, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:
25:36Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.
25:37Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungered, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink?
25:38When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee?
25:39Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee?
25:40And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.
25:41Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
25:42For I was an hungered, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:
25:43I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.
25:44Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungered, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?
25:45Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.
25:46And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

James
1:25But whoso looketh into the perfect law of liberty, and continueth therein, he being not a forgetful hearer, but a doer of the work, this man shall be blessed in his deed.
1:26If any man among you seem to be religious, and bridleth not his tongue, but deceiveth his own heart, this man's religion is vain.
James
2:14What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?
2:15If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food,
2:16And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit?
2:17Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.
2:18Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: show me thy faith without thy works, and I will show thee my faith by my works.
2:19Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.
2:20But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
2:21Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
2:22Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
2:23And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.
2:24Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.
2:25Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way?
2:26For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

Revelation
.22:12And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.
 
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Blackhawk

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inspectorVol,
"If that is the case, then please tell me exactly how many works are enough to save me. If I don't do enough, then I go to hell, regardless of whether or not I have placed my trust in the atoning death of Jesus Christ on my behalf?"

"I can't answer how many because I don't do the judging he does. If I had to guess I would say and this is my opinion you have to do enough to keep your faith vibrant and alive and growing and not stagnet and lifeless with no works."

If no one knows how many works you have to do in order to be saved then there is no peace. Why? Because I have no assurance of salvation at all. I can never know if I am saved or not. Are you a Christian? You can't know because you do not have a guideline to tell you that you are one.

blackhaw6
 
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Let me say one other thing here: If we ever feel that good works are a burden on us then we have a serious problem with our faith,
because we should be glad to do things for others because we have God's love in our hearts.. [/B]


I am not arguing the value of works for the Kingdom of God. I personally delight in serving my Lord in any way He calls me to. I do believe I was created for good works. What I am arguing is that you insist that if I DO NOT do works, I am not saved, and I'm sorry but that is not what the Word of God teaches us. Upon my profession of faith in Christ my name was written in the Lamb's Book of Life...I will not stand to be judged in the same way that unbelievers are judged. Period. Will I bear fruit for the kingdom of God? Will I hear "well done good and faithful servant" if I refuse to serve? I would say no. Does that condemn me to hell? NO.

As I said, I am not arguing the value of work and service. I am emphatically arguing against a doctrine that states that anything other than my faith in Jesus Christ brings me salvation.
 
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i do agree that you will be judged by your works (actions).

Is there a magic number ot save you? No. no where does it support this idea. Just that your works will show how strong your faith is. And why do you do these works? because you love your Fathers, you want to please him anyway you can, and telling him is just not enuff. The contents of your heart is shown in your actions.

Works help keep you on the proper path by showing the demons and devil that no amount of temptation can sway you. You are doing these things to show your love to the father. In return the Father will grant you "stuff" in heaven.

by grace and faith you have been saved. by works you gain favor in the Lords eye. Let your works be for love not for greedyness for the Lord will see what is in your heart and in your mind.
 
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InspectorVol

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Quote "Will I bear fruit for the kingdom of God? Will I hear "well done good and faithful servant" if I refuse to serve?
I would say no. Does that condemn me to hell? NO."

Redeemed 1 I have a question and I hope you are not so weary as to not answer. You said in your quote that if you
did not bear fruit you didn't think you would hear "well done good and faithful servant". If you(or me) don't hear those
words what words will we hear at that time? I always thought that we would be judged one way or another, either good or bad?
 
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This is my opinion: If I have not been a good and faithful servant (a servant is one who serves, or works), then I won't hear those words. Doesn't mean I won't hear "welcome home" or something. I really don't know. It has also been my understanding that yes, my works will be judged but not for the purpose of salvation or condemnation. If my works will determine my salvation at the end, then the blood of Christ was to no avail.

There are various doctrines regarding once saved always saved, works vs faith, etc. You believe what you believe, and I say God bless you. Perhaps in the end we'll both be wrong, or perhaps each of us had a part of the truth. But we have Christ in common, and a love for God and His Word. I think I'd prefer to discuss what we have in common, rather than what we disagree on. So, may God's blessings be upon you this day, and may the light of Christ in you shine brightly before men today.
 
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InspectorVol

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James 1

26

If any man among you seem to be religious, and bridleth not his tongue, but deceiveth his own heart, this man's religion is vain.

27

Pure religion and undefiled before God and the Father is this, To visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction, and to keep himself unspotted from the world.
Blackhaw6 It seems as though I can't make myself clear or that I have and it makes people uncomfortable because it conflicts what they believe.

Quote"If no one knows how many works you have to do in order to be saved then there is no peace. Why?
Because I have no assurance of salvation at all. I can never know if I am saved or not. Are you a Christian?
You can't know because you do not have a guideline to tell you that you are one."

What does this mean? What does this have to do with anything I have said? I think you are putting words in my mouth that I haven't said.
Let me ask you a question: What does it mean to bear good fruit? It means that you have done good works in the sight of God, ie you have been a faithful servant.
If people want to believe that works have no bearing on their faith then just keep ignoring what James is telling those he is talking to. Those of us who truly have Faith in God our lives
will have good works but those of us who claim to have Faith in God but do no works LIE. I really don't see the contraversy in this that others do because it seems so simple
and in harmony with the rest of the bible. I am not discounting anything the Lord said, in fact I have made more than one post and posted a link that shows what works mean to us
and how they are completely scriptural with grace and faith. Let me make this clear, I am not judging anyone at all, I would hope they would take what I have said and really study it
without any assumptions and make there own decision based on the truth and then go from there because we are all responsible for our own salvation.
 
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InspectorVol

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Redeemed1 I thank you for your nice words and I sincerly hope that we all are there in the end because it will be a glorious place.
Personally I like to discuss differences with others so I can put my beliefs and theirs before the word and see which is the truest to try and make sure
I don't have a false doctrine. I leave you now with the infamous words of a TV star that I added a little to
"Live long and prosper in the Lord"
 
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Blackhawk

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Inspector,

I might of misunderstood what you were saying. I too believe works have something to do with salvation. I believe that works show others that you have faith. That Faith only saves you but you have to have works because they are a natural when you have faith.

blackhaw6
 
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