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on harmonizing James with faith alone..

Discussion in 'Non-denominational' started by LouisBooth, Oct 23, 2001.

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  1. LouisBooth

    LouisBooth Well-Known Member

    +58
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    "There is no middle ground. If you aren't acting on what you believe, you don't truly believe it."

    Loved that thought I would share.
     
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  2. mx143

    mx143 Guest

    +0
    I agree.

    When Jesus said, "If you love me you will keep my commands.", He wasn't saying that you would prove you love Him by keeping His commands. HE was saying that by loving Him you wouldn't have any problems keeping His commands. Ex...Lets say you have a spouse. Do you do things for the spouse to prove you love them...or do you do things for them BECAUSE you love them? Same thing here. Jesus knew that if you truly love Him then you'll have no problems keeping His commands.

    James said ch2: (NIV)
    14 What good is it, my brothers, if a man claims to have faith but has no deeds? Can such faith save him? 15 Suppose a brother or sister is without clothes and daily food. 16 If one of you says to him, "Go, I wish you well; keep warm and well fed," but does nothing about his physical needs, what good is it? 17 In the same way, faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead. 18 But someone will say, "You have faith; I have deeds." Show me your faith without deeds, and I will show you my faith by what I do. 19 You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that--and shudder.

    I'm no bible scholar, but James is saying that BECAUSE you have faith in Christ, you will have deeds...James is talking about true faith, not just belief in God.

    Ephesians says that you are saved by faith not by works. This is true, but Paul was say that works can't save you. You can't earn Salvation.
     
  3. WWJD777

    WWJD777 New Member

    99
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    Amen!!
     
  4. Athlon4all

    Athlon4all Guest

    +0
    Amen is right! That's a great explanation!
     
  5. Thunderchild

    Thunderchild Sheep in Wolf's clothing

    +1
    Non-Denom
    ?

    The Bible never says "faith alone", it says "faith".

    In one place it says "you are saved by faith"
    In another "you are saved by grace"
    in another "you are saved by the gospel"

    No problems arise until some numbnut adds "alone" to one of the statements.
     
  6. LouisBooth

    LouisBooth Well-Known Member

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    sorry pastor. I say believe in this and you're saved. that implies just belief for there are no other things given as requirements. :)
     
  7. Thunderchild

    Thunderchild Sheep in Wolf's clothing

    +1
    Non-Denom
    ?

    "Believe and you shall be saved" does exist in one of the passages, and "believe and be baptised and you will be saved" is in another.

    Your comment that belief alone is enough would be tenable only if that was the only statement made throughout the Bible regarding the subject of salvation. It isn't.

    "They did not love the truth so as to be saved." implies that a love of truth is part of the requirement for salvation.

    But "believe and you will be saved" isn't even meaningful - the declaration does not say what it is that should be believed. Believe that Jesus is the Son of God? Believe that what Jesus proclaimed was true? Believe that what was being proclaimed ABOUT Jesus was true? All or one or none of the foregoing? - without reference to other passages you cannot even determine WHAT is to be believed.

    The apparant implication you claim exists does not stand - the possibility that belief alone is necessary is refuted by other passages.

    "quote 1" says, and "quote 1" has a number of possible implications. Any one of those implications might be correct, but when "quote 2" supports only one of those implications, any of the others has been refuted.
     
  8. LouisBooth

    LouisBooth Well-Known Member

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    "Your comment that belief alone is enough would be tenable only if that was the only statement made throughout the Bible regarding the subject of salvation. It isn't. "

    It is made with complete correctness. Just read the book of galatians and you being a pastor should know the historical background. That compleltly harmonizes with James for the result to be Faith alone. It produces good works in christ (among which is baptism). A leaf on a plant as well as fruit is not the defination of life, but ONLY a sigh of it. Its faith alone, just like when a seedling sprouts, it doesn't have any fruit, but its alive.
     
  9. Thunderchild

    Thunderchild Sheep in Wolf's clothing

    +1
    Non-Denom
    Press down on the accelerator pedal and the car will go ... ergo, the only thing needed to make a car go is an accelerator. What? You don't need the engine to be running? You don't need a power train to turn the wheels?

    Light the gas, and you will be able to cook your food ... ergo you only need lit gas to cook food with. What? You don't need a frying pan, or a regulated gas supply?

    Turn its switch to the on position and you will be able to watch TV ... ergo the only thing needed to watch TV is that the switch be turned on. What? you don't need the TV to be plugged into a suitable live power socket? You don't need the TV to be tuned to a channel which is carrying a transmission?
     
  10. LouisBooth

    LouisBooth Well-Known Member

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    "Press down on the accelerator pedal and the car will go ... ergo, the only thing needed to make a car go is an accelerator"

    This is a false analogy. Christ himself said to have eternal life you must believe. Now to truely believe all it takes is faith. That's it. Nothing else is requred. The book of galatians was written for that exact purpose. To say its faith ALONE. oh..and those words are used too. :) It is also spoken about in the book of Ephesians. Faith alone is the answer.
     
  11. Thunderchild

    Thunderchild Sheep in Wolf's clothing

    +1
    Non-Denom
    Search of the Blue Letter Bible returned the following result -

    Hmmm. Faith alone is dead.

    Perhaps a reference more precise than an entire book might be advantageous.
     
  12. LouisBooth

    LouisBooth Well-Known Member

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    "Hmmm. Faith alone is dead."

    Someone doesn't seem to understand the word context.

    "and judus went and hanged himself." "go and do likewise" Okay, according to you you need to go hang yourself....need some rope? :lol:

    "Perhaps a reference more precise than an entire book might be advantageous. "

    I guess you don't understand the book of galatians then. Its what its about. Anything other then faith won't get you salvation. Faith alone=salvation. That's the equation used in scripture. Do you understand what works are, maybe thats where you're having a problem.
     
  13. The Squalid Wanderer

    The Squalid Wanderer The Fool

    416
    +2
    Anglican
    is that saving faith must be accompanied by, and indeed expressed in, works.

    Even though knowledge is true, it is still not firmly established if unaccompanied by works. For everything is established by being put into practice.

    Read St. Mark the Ascetic's No Righteousness by Works
     
  14. Kanuk

    Kanuk Guest

    +0
    The fact is that James is actually refuting what Protestants believe.

    James concludes by saying "a man is justified by works." The context makes it painfully clear that he is talking about soteriological justification. And it is only those who want to believe the lie who ignore it.

    Put it this way. If you are a Protestant please try and explain how you put your faith in Christ without describing it as a mental assent.

    Have fun.

    Kanuk
     
  15. Thunderchild

    Thunderchild Sheep in Wolf's clothing

    +1
    Non-Denom
    As to the book of Galatians - why was it written? <font color=yellow>"I wonder that you are so quickly transferred from Him having called you by the grace of Christ to another gospel</font> Quite clearly, there is a problem inasmuch that the Galatians are being unsettled by an opposing doctrine.

    Are the people causing the problems identified? With certainty they are of the circumcision party.

    Now as to whether Galatians has been correctly interpreted: the following verses seem to be missing from a large number of the Bibles in circulation.

    Galatians 6:8-9 <font color=yellow>For the one sowing to the flesh will reap corruption of the flesh. But the one sowing to the Spirit will reap everlasting life from the Spirit. But we should not weaken in doing good, for in due time we shall reap, IF WE DO NOT FAINT </font> That last - "if we do not faint." in particular, seems to be in very few Bibles.

    Or what of Galatians 5 which in many Bibles seems to end with verse 17. Verses 18-21 <font color=yellow> Now the works of the flesh are clearly revealed, being adultery, (elided list),idolateries, jealousies, rivalries etc of which I tell you beforehand, as I also said before, THAT THE ONES PRACTICING SUCH THINGS WILL INHERIT NOTHING OF HEAVEN</font> It should not pass without note that in other passages in the Bible, all sins are stated (twice even) to be idolatries. As if the foregoing was not sufficient, Paul continues in verse 24 - <font color=yellow>But the ones belonging to Christ crucified the flesh with its passions and lusts.</font>

    What then of these works that do not save? Is it an all-encompassing declaration or specific? Is it works of righteousness that do not save? or works of love, perhaps? Maybe works of faith? Not at all - works of law are the only works declared to be insufficient, not only in Galatians but throughout the New Testament.

     
  16. LouisBooth

    LouisBooth Well-Known Member

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    "That last - "if we do not faint." in particular, seems to be in very few Bibles."

    Well, I'm gonna have to see the greek on that. Until you show me otherwise, I'm gonna go with the majority of the bibles and leave that out.

    Works are unsaving PERIOD. With a correct understanding of romans chapter 5-8 you can clearly see that. Galatians was written for that exact reason. To say works do not save. All of chapter 3 tells that. As does romans chapter 5-8. The only reason the law exsists is for a guide. Sin took the law captive and what was to give us life gave us death. After being freed by Christ we are no longer under the bondage of sin. Works have NO effect on that freeing. Salvation is by Grace through faith and faith alone.
     
  17. Thunderchild

    Thunderchild Sheep in Wolf's clothing

    +1
    Non-Denom
    <font color=yellow> Works are unsaving PERIOD. With a correct understanding of romans chapter 5-8 you can clearly see that. Galatians was written for that exact reason. To say works do not save.</font>

    Surely you jest

    [Romans 7:14 We know that the law is spiritual; but I am unspiritual, sold as a slave to sin.] <font color=blue> Read and Compare </font> [Romans 6:18 You have been set free from sin and have become slaves of righteousness.]

    [Romans 7:18 I know that nothing good lives in me, that is, in my sinful nature. For I have the desire to do what is good, but I can not carry it out.] <font color=blue> Read and Compare </font> [Romans 8:3 ... and so he condemned sin in sinful man, in order that the righteous requirements of the law might be fully met in us.]

    [Romans 7:23 but I see another law at work in the members of my body, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin at work within my members.] <font color=blue> Read and Compare</font> [Romans 8:9 You, however, are controlled not by the sinful nature but by the spirit, if the Spirit of God lives in you. And if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Christ.]

    <font color=green>"That last - "if we do not faint." in particular, seems to be in very few Bibles.".</font>

    <font color=yellow>Well, I'm gonna have to see the greek on that. Until you show me otherwise, I'm gonna go with the majority of the bibles and leave that out.</font>

    Oh for pity's sake, that was a tongue in cheek comment. Nonetheless - Would you like the textus receptus?
    to de kalon poiountes me ekkakomen kairo gar idio therisomen me ekluomenoi (word by word) the and good doing not let-us-weaken in-time for its-own we-shall-reap not-exhausted.

    Or perhaps you would prefer the Westcott-Hort with NA variants (oh - it's the same, except that the spelling of "ekkakomen" is changed to "egkakomen" - but there is no change of meaning.)

    Now, how do the translators handle this passage?
    AKJV - we shall reap, if we faint not.
    Literal - we shall reap, if (we) do not faint.
    NAS - we shall reap if we do not grow weary.
    NIV - we shall reap if we do not give up.
    NKJ - we shall reap if we do not lose heart.
    Concordant - for in due season we shall be reaping, if we do not faint (faint being marked as middle voice. bold text is a direct translation - regular is added to make a sensible English rendering)
    Amplified (Zondervan) - we shall reap, if we do not loosen and relax our courage and faint.




     
  18. Just1ce4all

    Just1ce4all Guest

    +0
    This is what the study notes for the NIV say about the scripture in James:

    This is how they explained it wasn't contradictory, and wasn't saying works saved you at all. It says your works prove your faith. It's explaining how faith without works is dead. Not nonexistant though. Dead just means it doesn't produce anything, it isn't growing. Considering the number of scriptures that say works won't save you, I'd suggest thinking again about that belief. Faith alone saves.
     
  19. Thunderchild

    Thunderchild Sheep in Wolf's clothing

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  20. Blackhawk

    Blackhawk Monkey Boy

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    Just1ce4all ,

    You are completly right again. I will atke it a little farther though maybe.

    You have to have works to be saved in a way. But not really. What I mean is that if you are saved works happen. They are a natural outpouring of your faith. If you do not have them then your faith is dead. But you will have them if you are saved. So all have them that are saved but they do not save you directly. Kind of like " I love God so I do what He says." The love comes st. I love Him and that is what is imortant. However because I love Him I obey Him. see it is a naturakl proression. I love Him so I do what He says. i have faith so then I have works.

    Another angle could be that "without works faith is dead" Yes. But what does that mean? Does the faith being dead mean you are unsaved? Maybe not. maybe it just means it makes no difference to others and really not alot to yourself. So it is trying to encourage people to do goo works becasue silent faith does not help anyone. One must speak their faith and live it also. (which James talked about a lot) For example if I go to work and am a secret missinary. That I am a Christian but no one knows. How does that really help my friends at work? It does not. I must tell others about my faith and about God and live out my faith through my works. So faith is still what saves us but it is dead (or no real use to anyone else) If I do not live out my faith through works.

    Blackahw
     
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