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on harmonizing James with faith alone..

Discussion in 'Non-denominational' started by LouisBooth, Oct 23, 2001.

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  1. WhitBit

    WhitBit Mirror of His Heart

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    Lou...right on ;)
     
  2. nyj

    nyj Goodbye, my puppy

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    Actually, it is not that our faith validates the works, but that by our faith, we allow Jesus Christ to work through us. Faith without works is dead, by the way.

    It's certainly not by faith alone, because I only see one verse that has the phrase "faith alone" in it and that is in James and it says our justification is NOT by faith alone.

    Grace can be given to us outside of faith.

    Exactly. But grace can also be given to us prior to us having any faith. But then it comes down to what you do with that grace. Try explaining to Jesus Christ why you didn't use the gifts He gave to you and see what sort of response you wind up getting.

    "Yes Jesus, I accepted you into my heart thirty years prior to my death, and I know you tried to move me into charitable works but I refused you, but Jesus, I never ever stopped believing in You, honest!"
     
  3. LouisBooth

    LouisBooth Well-Known Member

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    "Actually, it is not that our faith validates the works, but that by our faith, we allow Jesus Christ to work through us. Faith without works is dead, by the way."

    *sigh* you're taking that verse out of context..why don't you read the WHOLE book before jumping to the wrong conclusion. ;)

    "It's certainly not by faith alone, because I only see one verse that has the phrase "faith alone" in it and that is in James and it says our justification is NOT by faith alone. '

    And taken out of context, yes that means we are saved by works. Thank goodness its supposed to be taken in context huh?

    "Grace can be given to us outside of faith. "

    Umm...okay???? Salvation is by grace ALONE. We have faith that saves us and it is made valid by grace. Then we are saved. No works needed.

    "Try explaining to Jesus Christ why you didn't use the gifts He gave to you and see what sort of response you wind up getting."

    You get no rewards. :) don't mean you aren't saved ;) I really don't think its possible to be saved and not do works, but that DOESN'T mean that I am saved by what I do..for it is by faith alone I am saved, else grace matters not.
     
  4. nyj

    nyj Goodbye, my puppy

    +1,247
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    Ah yes, the almighty "You've taken it out of context and/or have not read the Epistle." card. I just loooovveee when that card is played. Matter of fact, The Epistle of James happens to be one of my favorite Epistles. Rather Louis, I think you are doing a bunch of mental gymnastics in order to wiggle your way out of James' obvious insistance on an active works-based faith. Actions speak louder than words, right?

    No, wrong, do not pass go, do not collect two hundred dollars. You already played the "taken out of context" card anyways. What James is saying is that any true faith will result in works. If you do not do the works, your faith is nothing more than belief and we know that even the demons believe, so don't go kidding yourself when you say "Lord, lord..." when you're sinning hand over fist.

    Your ALMOST there, but not quite. If, after you develop this faith, you do no works, you're lost. That's exactly what James is saying. Don't think you've finished the race once God bestows His graces upon you, because the race has only just begun. Now you have to run it.

    You need to re-read the Matthew verses I supplied and you didn't even address. You want to be a goat, or a sheep?
     
  5. LouisBooth

    LouisBooth Well-Known Member

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    "Actions speak louder than words, right?"

    Okay, if you don't want to read chapter 1 for yourself then lets look at how James sets up his letter. Personally I think the statement "What good is it, my borhters, if aman claims to have faith but has no deeds? Can such a faith save him?" is enough. James clearly makes the point that its not true faith because true faith expresses itself in deeds just like a dog barks, but the barking doesn't make it a dog.

    "If you do not do the works, your faith is nothing more than belief and we know that even the demons believe"

    Here you have shown me you didn't look at that verse closely. Believe and have faith in or belief are very different things. Check your greek bible for more details ;)

    "after you develop this faith, you do no works, you're lost. "

    Not according to the thief that was saved on the cross. He did NO works and was saved. Opps..there goes that arguement.

    "That's exactly what James is saying"

    No, james is saying if you are a christian then live like it. It is a correctional letter, not a letter of theology. Look at verse 19 and you should see that.

    "You need to re-read the Matthew verses I supplied and you didn't even address. You want to be a goat, or a sheep?"

    *sigh* you obviously didn't look at anything I told you to look at. So tell me, when does a sheep stop being a sheep then? If its not once saved always saved then show me where it shows a sheep turning into a goat...hmmm? Point of the story: THEY DON'T. Faith alone bro.
     
  6. nyj

    nyj Goodbye, my puppy

    +1,247
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    There you go with that "You haven't read it so you don't know what you're talking about" attitude again. Stop it please.

    No, that is not the point James is making. James is speaking to those who think that by their faith alone, they will be saved. That is the entire point of his whole Epistle, which is why I stated:

    "If you do not do the works, your faith is nothing more than belief and we know that even the demons believe."

    Not so fast Mr Booth. The thief actively participated in his salvation when he asked Jesus for forgiveness. Given his remaining lifespan, that was all the work he was required to do. He was a vocal witness to the power of Jesus Christ, admonishing the other thief.

    Exactly. You better live like it, because if you just think you're one and you don't act it, you're going to be in for a rude awakening come judgement time.

    Well, we're on par for the course then eh? :p

    Wow, now we're mixin arguments eh? In the end, we will either be a sheep or be a goat. What our final status is, depends on how we lived our lives. If I believe I'm a sheep, but I bray like a goat, I'm still a goat, even though I'm living amongst the shee.





     
  7. LouisBooth

    LouisBooth Well-Known Member

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    "Stop it please."

    I'm not trying to be condesenting. Just like if I talk to you about math and you say yeah..one and one are three..I will say, man you don't know what you're talking about. That is the case here.

    "No, that is not the point James is making. "

    That's exactly the ponit James is making. Look at the openning statements of the letter. He starts off with encouragement for the people he is writting to must not be living right or he would be talking about how you should live what you believe. Then in verse 19 he starts his case. in verse 22 he hits home.."Do not merely listen to the word, and so deceive yourselvesl.Do what it says." James is saying live like you are a christian!! Don't just confess and fool yourselves into beleiving that is real faith. He is saying its a matter of the heart and the actions reflect the heart. Again he shows that in verse 26. He is written to people that take the extreme. the same people that Paul probalby was talking to when he said should we sin so that grace abounds more..surely not!

    The summation of the letter is found in verse 22 "Do not merely listen to the word, and so deceiver yourselves. Do what is says." Live like you're a christian.

    "The thief actively participated in his salvation when he asked Jesus for forgiveness. "

    :lol: the thief did NOTHING. The only thing he did was have faith in Christ. That's it. Why? Because that's all it takes.

    "You better live like it, because if you just think you're one and you don't act it"

    *sigh* no that's not it at all. Salvation is by grace alone. Go look that up and see what it means. Faith by grace..that's IT. Nothing else or it wouldn't be grace. No works, period!

    "depends on how we lived our lives"

    So we have to earn salvation now huh? Then you spell it god and not God because you're taking power away from him. It is by grace ALONE we are saved. It is to people like you Paul was talking to when he said 1. "All have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God." Let me state that whole passage for you so you can understand. Paul makes it very clear. " This righteouness from God comes through FAITH in zjesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference, for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God and are justified freely by his GRACE though the redemption that came by Christ Jesus. then in verse 28 "For we maintain that a man is JUSTIFED BY FAITH APART FROM OBSERVING THE LAW (ie any good work you can name)."

    Paul again says it in eps "NOT BY WORKS..."

    How often does the bible have to say it for you to believe it huh? Your last statement is utter foolishness. You can't be a goat and a sheep at the same time, nor can a goat turn into a sheep or vice versa. once you are saved you are saved permiently and works have NOTHING to do with it.
     
  8. InspectorVol

    InspectorVol Regular Member

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    taken in realation with the whole biblical message ( in the NT not the OT as we don't live under that law) not by a verse extracted here and there and ignoring the rest of the scripture, but include everything and prove your point that way, and not by your own ideas. Remember before you read this we are to be lovers of the truth, not lovers of our own ideas.

    www.gospelway.com/salvation/salvation_by_faith.htm[
     
  9. epobre

    epobre Guest

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    LouisBooth,

    You say salvation is by "Grace ALONE". Please tell us what "grace" means.

    You say salvation is by "Faith ALONE." Please tell us what you understand by "faith."

    How can salvation be by :Grace ALONE" yet it is ALSO by "Faith ALONE?" Is this the same as 1 + 1 + 1 = 1?

    Now, please answer these questions that I have been asking you for sometime now:

    Can anyone be SAVED by Grace ALONE and/or Faith ALONE even if he HAS NOT DONE the WILL of the Father in heaven (Matt. 7:21).

    Can anyone be SAVED by Grace ALONE and/or Faith ALONE even if he HAS NOT ENTERED the fold as Jesus COMMANDS (John 10:9)?

    Can anyone be SAVED by Grace ALONE and/or Faith ALONE even if one DOES NOT BELIEVE everything Jesus says (John 8:40 together with John 17:3,1)?

    Don't tell me I'm taking the verse out of context now or that I should go to the Greeks. That's an old overworked trick that religious MAGICIANS use.

    Ed
     
  10. snw7

    snw7 Guest

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    Ed - there is absolutely nothing wrong with going back to the greek texts. That's the original language it was written in and so much gets lost in translation that without it you wouldn't even have the current versions we use. You even said yourself in one of your other posts that you and your church use different versions to get close to what the original meant. What's so wrong with wanting to use the original? I just don't understand.

    Louis -
    I'm paraphrasing, but here is a quote by St. Francis of Assisi "At all times preach the gospel, and when necessary, use words." Just our whole existence and life (what we do, what we say, etc.) should be worship to God totally for His Glory 100% of the time. That means our faith manifesting itself in our works. It has absolutely zero to do with the concept of being saved by what you do. But if I were a non-christian, it gives me something to pique my curiousity when I see you living out your faith - not by your preaching to me. When i see your faith in action - then I can see what your type of faith can do in my life and then I would be more apt to have faith myself. They all work together.

    Shawn
     
  11. txpiper

    txpiper Guest

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    "Can anyone be SAVED by Grace ALONE and/or Faith ALONE even if he HAS NOT DONE the WILL of the Father in heaven (Matt. 7:21)."

    Well, let's work on this. First, you need to show the whole passage.

    Matthew 7:21-23 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

    These workers are gonna hear some bad news at the GWThrone. He does not recognise their busy little loser souls. This means they did not do the will of the Father, which is the "rules for entry" back in verse 21.

    The will of the Father has to do with belief as revealed in John.

    John 6:39-40 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day. And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

    If you are trying to pay installments on your salvation with good deeds, you are in serious danger.


     
  12. InspectorVol

    InspectorVol Regular Member

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    It will answer any questions if anyone will read it.
     
  13. epobre

    epobre Guest

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    snw7,

    You wrote:
    When you say you go to the Greek, do you really mean the ORIGINAL Greek manuscripts or a TRANSLATION of the original Greek manuscript? I don't believe YOU nor LouisBooth can TRULY read and understand the ORIGINMAL Greek manuscripts.

    You wrote:
    This is precisely what TV evangelists do. They don't really care whether anyone will be saved by what they are doing. They concentrate their preaching on what faith can do for their lives. That's why "Prosperity Gospels" and "Healing Gospels" thrive.

    Ed
     
  14. nyj

    nyj Goodbye, my puppy

    +1,247
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    I've clicked on that link several times, each time it says page unavailable, so it's actually not answering any of my questions.
     
  15. Thunderchild

    Thunderchild Sheep in Wolf's clothing

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    Too many OSAS threads. In future, I'll only be checking OSAS part 2 for further debate.

    Final from me for this thread - Paul answers the objection that works don't mean a person is saved. "If I keep the whole of the law, yet do not love - if I have faith enough to move mountains, yet do not love : grace will be with-held." Without cavil. We respond to God's grace by extending love, and acting on that love, or the faith we have, and the grace extended to us, will be revoked.
     
  16. LouisBooth

    LouisBooth Well-Known Member

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    ed, as always you're off just enough to be dangerously wrong.

    "Please tell us what "grace" means."

    Grace is getting something you can not do anything to get. Ie works.

    "Please tell us what you understand by "faith.""

    Our response to Grace.

    "Can anyone be SAVED by Grace ALONE and/or Faith ALONE even if he HAS NOT DONE the WILL of the Father in heaven "

    Read romans 9-11 Paul addresses that problem with Isreal's rejection of Christ and comes to the conclusion that they will be saved. Why? Because God is sovergn

    "Can anyone be SAVED by Grace ALONE and/or Faith ALONE even if he HAS NOT ENTERED the fold as Jesus COMMANDS "

    Yes, because being saved by Grace alone though faith you enter that gate. Thats how you get it ed.

    "Just our whole existence and life (what we do, what we say, etc.) should be worship to God totally for His Glory 100% of the time."

    Ahh..you miss an interesting point that our ST. makes (I love that quote by the way) this is POST salvation. The action talked about here is preaching the word, not salvation. This comes from a true faith being expressed. I totally agree with you when you say it works together. If you read my openning post you will see that :) The point I make is that works are a POST salvation event.

    "I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity."

    TXpiper, that proves it right there..they where never know, true faith was never there. Again proving works don't save, only true faith does.

    "I don't believe YOU nor LouisBooth can TRULY read and understand the ORIGINMAL Greek manuscripts."

    Ed, you wouldn't be able to understand greek if God himself told you. You're so set in believing in your way and no one else's it will only take God telling you you're wrong...which is fine by me, but I'm sure when he tells you Jesus is God, you'll feel kinda bad ;)

    oh..the link is wrong...I even replaced the :"[" with l to say html and it still didnt work.






     
  17. InspectorVol

    InspectorVol Regular Member

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  18. InspectorVol

    InspectorVol Regular Member

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    Why does it have to be only one thing that we believe in when all of these are mentioned as mentioned in the bible and therefore important to our ultimate salvation.

    Why can't it be just what the bible says; We are saved by God's grace(because we can't achieve the perfection that Christ did because we are only humans) because we have faith that he is God and can save us, which, if we do his will as commanded we have works that prove our faith to be true faith, instead of a dead faith which will condemn us.
    It is a geniously simple plan that we as humans continue to screw up because we want something to talk about to make us feel more important than we really are.
     
  19. LouisBooth

    LouisBooth Well-Known Member

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    BEcause thats not what the bible says. It says faith alone. :) Grace through faith alone. That's it. Anything else and it isn't grace. To do works to prove your faith is contrary to what grace is. Either its grace or its works. Can't have it both ways.
     
  20. InspectorVol

    InspectorVol Regular Member

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    My statement does conform to what the bible says Louis.
    It mentions God's grace which save us, it also mentions
    faith which we must have to recieve God's grace, it also mentions
    works which james said that "faith without works is dead".
    This is all plainly stated in the bible and I ythink we all agree
    on that. The difference is I put them all together and many
    people don't.
    Lets examine why I do that: First let say that I in no way put man's
    works above God's grace that would be stupid.
    Grace is a gift from god that we may be saved,( I think
    everyone believes that), if we have faith in him,(I think we all
    believe that as well), it is works that define our faith as a true faith or
    a dead faith( i think we all would agree with that after all that is
    what the bible say isn't it)? Now when we combine this we get
    Grace through faith through works, its very simple and
    completely scriptural.
    It all works very well together because works do not I repeat
    do not affect God's grace in any way, but works have a
    direct impact on our faith, because if we do good works
    then we have a true faith, if we don't do works we have a dead faith
    that will condemn us because that is what James said. All this being
    said works although they don't save us directly they have a definete
    impact on our ultimate hope of salvation that we all our striving for.
    I hope this clears up my position and maybe helps bring a little
    clarity to this whole subject.
     
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