On Free Will

[Wordkeeper]

It's a house.

Apparently you didn't understand.

What does the tower represent in our Christian life?

 

[Wordkeeper]

Since you can't even seem to stay on topic on these side discussions, I'm at a loss. I don't want to have to quote everything just to get back in the right direction.

Its not off topic because you say so. You got to prove it.

 

[jimmyjimmy]

Luke 14: 28“For which one of you, when he wants to build a tower, does not first sit down and calculate the cost to see if he has enough to complete it?29“Otherwise, when he has laid a foundation and is not able to finish, all who observe it begin to ridicule him, 30saying, ‘This man began to build and was not able to finish.’


What is the house?

Your diversions won't work.

 

[Hammster]

Apparently you didn't understand.

What does the tower represent in our Christian life?

It's a tower.

 

[Hammster]

Its not off topic because you say so. You got to prove it.

Which I explained that I'm not wont to do.

 

[Wordkeeper]

Which I explained that I'm not wont to do.

Then it's not substantiated. Just another one in a series.

 

[Wordkeeper]

Your diversions won't work.

Why are you afraid to hear the explanation?

 

[ToBeLoved]

Where do you see Jesus' symbology as negating the existence of other sheep and other flocks? In real life, does the existence of one shepherd mean no other shepherd can logically exist? In real life, does the existence of one sheep pen mean no other sheep pens exist? Does one shepherd merging sheep from two different pens, or bringing together scattered sheep into one flock under himself, mean no other sheep exist? If reality itself doesn't demand any such exclusion, why would an analogy? That's not even extrapolating off other traits of sheep - it's making up comparisons that literally refute the basis of the analogy.

For the purposes of Jesus' various analogies in John 10, the sheep represent at times Israel (believers and unbelievers both), His (Jewish believers), and true Israel (believers, both Jew and Gentile.)
.

Can you state this all again.

I am so confused. Sheep always referrs to God's Own. The two sheep pens are the Hebrews/Israelite's/Jews and Gentiles.

There is ONLY ONE shepherd. Jesus Christ is the ONLY way to the Father.

 

[ToBeLoved]

Where do you see Jesus' symbology as negating the existence of other sheep and other flocks? In real life, does the existence of one shepherd mean no other shepherd can logically exist? In real life, does the existence of one sheep pen mean no other sheep pens exist? Does one shepherd merging sheep from two different pens, or bringing together scattered sheep into one flock under himself, mean no other sheep exist? If reality itself doesn't demand any such exclusion, why would an analogy? That's not even extrapolating off other traits of sheep - it's making up comparisons that literally refute the basis of the analogy.

For the purposes of Jesus' various analogies in John 10, the sheep represent at times Israel (believers and unbelievers both), His (Jewish believers), and true Israel (believers, both Jew and Gentile.)

Does the existence of the nation of Israel mean no other nation can exist? Does the existence of Jewish believers mean Jewish non-believers cannot exist? Does the existence of Jewish and Gentile believers automatically mean non-believers can't exist?

Jesus says, "My sheep listen to my voice" - not "sheep listen to my voice." In the John 10 analogies, the sheep do not change species when they enter the gate for the first time, they change ownership. Only the sheep within the gate under the true shepherd are saved. Jesus' use of different symbols isn't to teach that Pharisees can never be saved, but that true sheep listen to the voice of the true shepherd.

- Being a sheep doesn't logically mandate that one will become a part of Jesus' flock. It's beyond the scope of the analogies to speculate.
- Being one of Christ's sheep means you have entered through the gate, by His leading, to become part of His flock.
- Prophetically, Jesus speaks of having yet other sheep that He will lead in. That doesn't mandate the actions of individuals any more than me saying, "There are some students who will graduate this year under the teaching of Prof. Z' mandates that certain specific students must graduate while other specific students must drop out.

 

[Hammster]

Then it's not substantiated. Just another one in a series.

Okay.

 

[now faith]

Not a misquote.

He said in his opening statement
I think everybody that loves Christ or knows Christ whether they are conscious of it or not are in the Body of Christ.
These sound bites are confusing due the cutting out the parts where he qualifies his statement.

 

[now faith]

It is not possible to be a sheep of Christ if one does not hear and follow Christ.

I do not see a verse in Jn 10 that says one is saved/of Christ BEFORE entering in. Again, the order of the verse 9 has "enter in" BEFORE "saved".

Jesus preached to the dead all the way back to the time of Noah, God will find a way for the Gospel to be given to everyone.
The whosoever in John 3 Vs 16 is as it states

 

[jimmyjimmy]

He said in his opening statement
I think everybody that loves Christ or knows Christ whether they are conscious of it or not are in the Body of Christ.

Not a biblically sound statement.

 

[Wordkeeper]

Where do you see Jesus' symbology as negating the existence of other sheep and other flocks? In real life, does the existence of one shepherd mean no other shepherd can logically exist? In real life, does the existence of one sheep pen mean no other sheep pens exist? Does one shepherd merging sheep from two different pens, or bringing together scattered sheep into one flock under himself, mean no other sheep exist? If reality itself doesn't demand any such exclusion, why would an analogy? That's not even extrapolating off other traits of sheep - it's making up comparisons that literally refute the basis of the analogy.

For the purposes of Jesus' various analogies in John 10, the sheep represent at times Israel (believers and unbelievers both), His (Jewish believers), and true Israel (believers, both Jew and Gentile.)

Does the existence of the nation of Israel mean no other nation can exist? Does the existence of Jewish believers mean Jewish non-believers cannot exist? Does the existence of Jewish and Gentile believers automatically mean non-believers can't exist?

Jesus says, "My sheep listen to my voice" - not "sheep listen to my voice." In the John 10 analogies, the sheep do not change species when they enter the gate for the first time, they change ownership. Only the sheep within the gate under the true shepherd are saved. Jesus' use of different symbols isn't to teach that Pharisees can never be saved, but that true sheep listen to the voice of the true shepherd.

- Being a sheep doesn't logically mandate that one will become a part of Jesus' flock. It's beyond the scope of the analogies to speculate.
- Being one of Christ's sheep means you have entered through the gate, by His leading, to become part of His flock.
- Prophetically, Jesus speaks of having yet other sheep that He will lead in. That doesn't mandate the actions of individuals any more than me saying, "There are some students who will graduate this year under the teaching of Prof. Z' mandates that certain specific students must graduate while other specific students must drop out.

In the Exodus event, drinking from the Rock seems to be metonymy for persuading the Israelites to serve God, not the world, because even though you can take a person out of Egypt, it's a different task taking Egypt out of the person!

Do you think that non-believers with altruistic motives, serving others not serving self, would qualify as sheep of other flock?

 

[now faith]

Not a biblically sound statement.

1 Peter: 3. 18. For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit: 19. By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison; 20. Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.

Looks like Schripture to me.

 

[jimmyjimmy]

1 Peter: 3. 18. For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit: 19. By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison; 20. Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.

Looks like Schripture to me.

Nice text. Doesn't address my post.

 

[HeLeadethMe]

One is not a sinner until they 'actually' commit a transgression. Again, sin is not just an idea (as sin nature) that is passed from one person to another nor a substance nor DNA that is passed from one to another.

Since sin is transgression of the law and no newly conceived person has committed a transgression,he cannot be a sinner. Nowhere does the bible say anyone is "born a sinner" nor does man have a 'sin nature' that makes him a sinner. Again John said "sin is transgression of the law" and did not say sin is being born with a sin nature.

Agree with what you are saying here.........all SINNED and fell short of the glory of God. Like the child Emmanuel....when he was old enough to choose the right and reject the wrong......Adam and Eve had a brief time of innocency after they were made, but the time came to choose, and unfortunately they chose wrong. Every child likewise when they are old enough to begin choosing, chooses wrong, they choose to sin.....have a hunch that is around the age of two or so for most, based on what the Lord showed me about the time I first sinned, not yet three years of age.......also called the terrible twos, a stage of contrariness for most kids.

 

[jimmyjimmy]

Agree with what you are saying here.........all SINNED and fell short of the glory of God. Like the child Emmanuel....when he was old enough to choose the right and reject the wrong......Adam and Eve had a brief time of innocency after they were made, but the time came to choose, and unfortunately they chose wrong. Every child likewise when they are old enough to begin choosing, chooses wrong, they choose to sin.....have a hunch that is around the age of two or so for most, based on what the Lord showed me about the time I first sinned, not yet three years of age.......also called the terrible twos, a stage of contrariness for most kids.

As soon as they have power, whatever little power that may be, to exert their wills over their parents, they do so. They were born with it, and as they develop language and the ability to walk, they exercise they use the tools to sin.

 

[HeLeadethMe]

As soon as they have power, whatever little power that may be, to exert their wills over their parents, they do so. They were born with it, and as they develop language and the ability to walk, they exercise they use the tools to sin.

Oh I think they exercise their will.....and that is why we each are held accountable by God....that is why He justifiably calls us to repent. I know that is what He showed me by His Spirit one day, about my young life....exactly after the pattern of Eve.

 

[HeLeadethMe]

As soon as they have power, whatever little power that may be, to exert their wills over their parents, they do so. They were born with it, and as they develop language and the ability to walk, they exercise they use the tools to sin.

Who are we to say to the Lord why have you made me thus......we are born with weak flesh, of the earth earthy but nobody else is at fault, nobody else can take responsibility for our weak flesh but we ourselves. Through repentance we must go to overcome our weak flesh. God does His part, He gave us His word, His Son, He draws us by His Spirit, He chastises who He loves as sons, He speaks, He instructs, He does all He can.......but in the end we have to do our part....Godly sorrow and repent. I think when we try to splice and dice things too finely we end up missing the point....not that I haven't done it myself.