On Free Will

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TheSeabass

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Not so. What you are referring to is called "actual sin." But the Bible teaches that all men, by virtue of our fallen nature, are born in sin. That is sometimes referred to as "original sin" but there are debates over the exact nature of original sin, so let's just point out that a person is in sin even before committing an actual sin.

One is not a sinner until they 'actually' commit a transgression. Again, sin is not just an idea (as sin nature) that is passed from one person to another nor a substance nor DNA that is passed from one to another.

Since sin is transgression of the law and no newly conceived person has committed a transgression,he cannot be a sinner. Nowhere does the bible say anyone is "born a sinner" nor does man have a 'sin nature' that makes him a sinner. Again John said "sin is transgression of the law" and did not say sin is being born with a sin nature.
 
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Resha Caner

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Again, sin is not just an idea (as sin nature) that is passed from one person to another nor a substance nor DNA that is passed from one to another.

Maybe it is. No one is born with perfect DNA - there's not even a way such a thing could be defined.

Nowhere does the bible say anyone is "born a sinner" nor does man have a 'sin nature' that makes him a sinner.

Hmm. Then I must be misreading Psalm 51.
 
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TheSeabass

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The sheep know His voice *before* they enter in. They come to Him because they are His sheep. They are lost sheep, and then found sheep, but they are always sheep, which is exactly what He says about those who are His own.
It is not possible to be a sheep of Christ if one does not hear and follow Christ.

I do not see a verse in Jn 10 that says one is saved/of Christ BEFORE entering in. Again, the order of the verse 9 has "enter in" BEFORE "saved".
 
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jimmyjimmy

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It is not possible to be a sheep of Christ if one does not hear and follow Christ.

I do not see a verse in Jn 10 that says one is saved/of Christ BEFORE entering in. Again, the order of the verse 9 has "enter in" BEFORE "saved".

I didn't say that they were saved prior coming to Christ. I said that they were His sheep, which is why they came to His call.

"What man of you, having a hundred sheep, if he has lost one of them, does not leave the ninety-nine in the open country, and go after the one that is lost, until he finds it? And when he has found it, he lays it on his shoulders, rejoicing.​

He came to redeem a particular group of people, and He will not lose even one of them.
 
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Wordkeeper

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I'll try again (if you aren't going to answer, then just don't respond).

So what are we saved from? (And no, I don't think we are saved from hell)

I've stated the answer so often that I believe your resistance to considering it may stem from fear of the consequences, meaning the thought of losing the results of all the time, energy and resources invested in learning the worldview that you now possess, making it waste . It must seem to be too horrifying to even imagine, not to mention how it can lead to attracting the hatred of those who will then consider you to be a traitor.

Let's try once more, bearing in mind what is at stake:

John 5:44 How can you believe, if you accept praise from one another and don't seek the praise that comes from the only God?

Plainly, we are saved from a life lived, at the end of which we have nothing to show for. When we die, our achievements fade away, are inconsequential, bringing no profit or reward to us. This is not just a Christian issue, Stoic and Epicurean thought having attempted to resolve it, as already mentioned, as did the various rabbinical schools, with a special mention to the solution offered by the Teacher of Righteousness, found in the Qumran manuscripts.

God's Way of Fulfillment
Israel lived a futile life in Canaan. God initiated a move that put her in Egypt so that this was exposed. When Israel realized worldly living was futile, resulted in fleeting fruit, she took the opportunity offered by God to change her situation.

God put Israel in danger and the rescued her, repeating this process several times.

This was to teach her that to be fulfilled, she needed to die to herself.

Israel was terrified. Yes, God had delivered, but what was the guarantee that it would always work?

The revelations are described as spiritual food and drink:

1 Corinthians 10:1For I do not want you to be unaware, brethren, that our fathers were all under the cloud and all passed through the sea; 2and all were baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea;3and all ate the same spiritual food;4and all drank the same spiritual drink, for they were drinking from a spiritual rock which followed them; and the rock was Christ.

But it didn't benefit all:

5Nevertheless, with most of them God was not well-pleased; for they were laid low in the wilderness.


Hebrews 4:2 indeed we have had good news preached to us, just as they also; but the word they heard did not profit them, because it was not united by faith in those who heard.

3For we who have believed enter that rest, just as He has said,
“AS I SWORE IN MY WRATH,
THEY SHALL NOT ENTER MY REST,”
although His works were finished from the foundation of the world.

4For He has said somewhere concerning the seventh day: “AND GODRESTED ON THE SEVENTH DAY FROM ALL HIS WORKS”; 5and again in this passage, “THEY SHALL NOT ENTER MY REST.” 6Therefore, since it remains for some to enter it, and those who formerly had good news preached to them failed to enter because of disobedience,

7He again fixes a certain day, “Today,” saying through David after so long a time just as has been said before,
“TODAY IF YOU HEAR HIS VOICE,
DO NOT HARDEN YOUR HEARTS.”


To avoid digression from the question we will not discuss in detail what God required for perfection, fulfillment.

The answer to the question, again, is: we are saved from working for treasure that perishes, to working for lasting treasure.
 
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jimmyjimmy

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we are saved from working for treasure that perishes, to working for lasting treasure.

Says the Bible, nowhere.

"Since, therefore, we have now been justified by his blood, much more shall we be saved by him from the wrath of God."
 
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Albion

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One is not a sinner until they 'actually' commit a transgression.

Well, that is your opinion, and I already knew that. The Bible, however, doesn't support that view. It does say that men are naturally estranged from God, born in sin, etc. but there is nowhere that it says the opposite--that it's possible that there are some people who don't need a savior.
 
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Hammster

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John 10:9 ".... if any man enter in...."

So anyone can enter but not of Christ until they do enter.

John 10:9 "I am the door: by me if any man enter in, he shall be saved..."

The order of the verse has "enter in" BEFORE "saved"

-----

John 10:27 Jesus said:
1) My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me
or
2) My sheep do not hear my voice, and I know them, and they do not follow me?

Obviously Christ said #1 for it is not possible to be of Christ without ever having heard or followed Him. Not possible for one to be a sheep of Christ if sheep does not even know who the Shepherd is.
You still didn't answer the question.

Yes, I know it says anyone. But some men are regarded as sheep, and some as goats. So, can goats enter, for instance?
 
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Wordkeeper

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Says the Bible, nowhere.

"Since, therefore, we have now been justified by his blood, much more shall we be saved by him from the wrath of God."

Don't be scared, everything will be alright :

Matthew 19:21Jesus said to him, "If you wish to be complete, go and sell your possessions and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, follow Me."
 
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Hammster

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I've stated the answer so often that I believe your resistance to considering it may stem from fear of the consequences, meaning the thought of losing the results of all the time, energy and resources invested in learning the worldview that you now possess, making it waste . It must seem to be too horrifying to even imagine, not to mention how it can lead to attracting the hatred of those who will then consider you to be a traitor.

Let's try once more, bearing in mind what is at stake:

John 5:44 How can you believe, if you accept praise from one another and don't seek the praise that comes from the only God?

Plainly, we are saved from a life lived, at the end of which we have nothing to show for. When we die, our achievements fade away, are inconsequential, bringing no profit or reward to us. This is not just a Christian issue, Stoic and Epicurean thought having attempted to resolve it, as already mentioned, as did the various rabbinical schools, with a special mention to the solution offered by the Teacher of Righteousness, found in the Qumran manuscripts.

God's Way of Fulfillment
Israel lived a futile life in Canaan. God initiated a move that put her in Egypt so that this was exposed. When Israel realized worldly living was futile, resulted in fleeting fruit, she took the opportunity offered by God to change her situation.

God put Israel in danger and the rescued her, repeating this process several times.

This was to teach her that to be fulfilled, she needed to die to herself.

Israel was terrified. Yes, God had delivered, but what was the guarantee that it would always work?

The revelations are described as spiritual food and drink:

1 Corinthians 10:1For I do not want you to be unaware, brethren, that our fathers were all under the cloud and all passed through the sea; 2and all were baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea;3and all ate the same spiritual food;4and all drank the same spiritual drink, for they were drinking from a spiritual rock which followed them; and the rock was Christ.

But it didn't benefit all:

5Nevertheless, with most of them God was not well-pleased; for they were laid low in the wilderness.


Hebrews 4:2 indeed we have had good news preached to us, just as they also; but the word they heard did not profit them, because it was not united by faith in those who heard.

3For we who have believed enter that rest, just as He has said,
“AS I SWORE IN MY WRATH,
THEY SHALL NOT ENTER MY REST,”
although His works were finished from the foundation of the world.

4For He has said somewhere concerning the seventh day: “AND GODRESTED ON THE SEVENTH DAY FROM ALL HIS WORKS”; 5and again in this passage, “THEY SHALL NOT ENTER MY REST.” 6Therefore, since it remains for some to enter it, and those who formerly had good news preached to them failed to enter because of disobedience,

7He again fixes a certain day, “Today,” saying through David after so long a time just as has been said before,
“TODAY IF YOU HEAR HIS VOICE,
DO NOT HARDEN YOUR HEARTS.”


To avoid digression from the question we will not discuss in detail what God required for perfection, fulfillment.

The answer to the question, again, is: we are saved from working for treasure that perishes, to working for lasting treasure.
And what happens if you continue to work for that treasure that perishes?
 
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Hammster

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Don't be scared, everything will be alright :

Matthew 19:21Jesus said to him, "If you wish to be complete, go and sell your possessions and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, follow Me."
Have you done that?
 
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Hammster

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"Since, therefore, we have now been justified by his blood, much more shall we be saved by him from the wrath of God."
So we are ultimately saved from God?
 
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jimmyjimmy

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Don't be scared, everything will be alright :

Matthew 19:21Jesus said to him, "If you wish to be complete, go and sell your possessions and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, follow Me."

Is that how a man is forgiven of his sin and made a new creation?
 
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PeaceJoyLove

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Adam ate from a tree he was forbidden to eat from. Therefore was Adam a sinner BEFORE he transgressed? No. Neither is anyone else a sinner BEFORE they sin.

Let's look see what scripture says...
Romans 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:
13 (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.

14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.

Why would God have to send His Word in the flesh of Jesus Christ to reconcile man?

It all has to do with "Thou shalt not eat..." and the Tree of Life is hidden until HE causes us to become blind that we might SEE...There is only One Way back to that Tree of Life and we are all born of the dust/earth realm. The Last Adam ...a New Creation through/In Christ (The Door) is required to gain entrance to The Kingdom of God...by all. Until that happens, we are eating from the forbidden tree...and disobeying the first commandment by God.
 
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PeaceB

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Infants and the mentally disabled do not have the capacity to believe therefore are not accountable to the command to believe, (at least until infants mature into youths (Genesis 8:21), learning right from wrong (Isaiah 7:15-16) then they become accountable to God's commands.) Holding infants and the mentally disabled to commands of God when they cannot even comprehend them would be like holding a man born without legs accountable for not being able to walk.

Sin is the reason people are lost. If infants are conceived or born with sin and die/aborted/still born, then they will be lost for not having sins forgiven.
Neither of the two verses states that youth or incapacity excuses one from unbelief.

Nor is your distinction logical. You would excuse infants and the mentally incompetent because they have no ability to believe in the gospel, but you would not excuse mentally competent adults who have never heard the gospel and therefore also do not have an ability to believe in the gospel:

13 For, " every one who calls upon the name of the Lord will be saved."
14 But how are men to call upon him in whom they have not believed? And how are they to believe in him of whom they have never heard? And how are they to hear without a preacher?
15 And how can men preach unless they are sent? As it is written, "How beautiful are the feet of those who preach good news!"
16 But they have not all heeded the gospel; for Isaiah says, "Lord, who has believed what he has heard from us?"
17 So faith comes from what is heard, and what is heard comes by the preaching of Christ.

Your distinction is also illogical because it would make a previously innocent infant a sinner deserving hell from the second that he reaches the age of reason until the moment that he hears and accepts the gospel. If nobody preaches the gospel to him within two days of him reaching the age of reason and he gets into a car accident he dies and goes to hell under your theology, whereby two days earlier he would have gone to heaven as an innocent babe. That is a ridiculous result, with all due respect.
 
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