On Free Will

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frienden thalord

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We would have to define what love is here ,or is it something that looks like love ,but is not like self love ,narcissism ,carnal desire ,rebellion ?
After all there are those who love evil ,lwho love Satan.
One would have to define ,to ask John exactly what he meant ,as loving God, means loving as God does in a pure way , not by our human senses , perverted par le Diable .
Hey fat wee robin. this should help. Charity , if we don't have this if matters not what we did.
Now lets investigate the biblical definition of charity.
IT sure don't rejoice in inquity , nor behave itself unseemingly.
notice the word unseemingly. now let us read romans one
and pay close attention . Man with man working that which is UNSEEMINGLY.
tell that to the ones who say gay marriage is love .
the peoples of today know not the love that is from God. they know the lust called love that the
world does.
 
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JamesFW

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Exactly! They don't have to.

So, you are as confused as ever. Why is God patiently waiting for them to repent so as not to perish? They already have faith. Is it faith, plus something else?
 
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jimmyjimmy

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So, you are as confused as ever. Why is God patiently waiting for them to repent so as not to perish? They already have faith. Is it faith, plus something else?

Do you think that everyone who warms a pew is a regenerated Christian? God saved us at a particular moment in time, and he draws His sheep to local churches in order for them to hear the gospel, be baptized, and learn of everything He taught.
 
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JamesFW

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Do you think that everyone who warms a pew is a regenerated Christian? God saved us at a particular moment in time, and he draws His sheep to local churches in order for them to hear the gospel, be baptized, and learn of everything He taught.

So, it was written to unbelievers. My, my.

Besides, I thought you said it was written to those who obtained faith.

How do you believe anything with all the confusion you have?
 
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jimmyjimmy

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So, it was written to unbelievers. My, my.

Besides, I thought you said it was written to those who obtained faith.

How do you believe anything with all the confusion you have?

All of the elect were unbelievers, were they not?
 
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JamesFW

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All of the elect were unbelievers, were they not?

But that is not whom Peter is addressing according to you. You said this -

The, "you" in 2 Peter are those to whom the epistle is addressed:

Simeon Peter, a servant and apostle of Jesus Christ,

To those who have obtained a faith of equal standing with ours by therighteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ:


This is referring to those who have obtained a faith of equal standing with Peter's, according to you. This is not referring to unbelievers, but those who have obtained faith.
 
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Aseyesee

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I believe we lose our own will but only in a manner of speaking..........and willingly. The Lord does not force us to deny self and follow Him unto death of our self life. Jesus said, "If you WOULD be my disciples..." And even that death is not literal, it only means the flesh nature has been overcome. We will always remain "dead" to self willingly too.....since there always remains the possibility of falling, like those angels did. So I think of the will becoming one with His, as being really a willing and happy submission of our will to His will......simply called overcoming (of our self will) in the bible.

All things in us, just as the kingdom goes through stages; what our will is to us goes through the same transformation simply because it is relative to our soul.

I believe in free will until our will becomes free, by becoming one with the will of our father, and this in all things, but this is not a separate truth from our soul which is my whole point about our will.

Thy kingdom come thy will be done is a reality that happens in us (firstly).

He that findeth his life/soul shall lose it: and he that loseth his life/soul for my sake shall find it.

And it begins here ... And he that taketh not his cross, and followeth after me, is not worthy of me.
 
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bling

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Paul said faith works by love which is ultimately the very person of God, but this also makes the above redundant unless the all mysteries, and other things spoken of here are earthly realties as James had said about wisdom.

Paul also said God gave every man the measure of faith.

First off: I total agree God has given all humans “faith” we are start out trusting in somethings and some people including ourselves, but this is not a saving faith. We have to turn what faith (trust) we do have toward the Benevolent Creator.

Faith and Love do go together and Christians are to always be motivated by Love in all they do, but nonbelievers only can have a little faith with a child for wonderful parent love to begin with. Is Paul addressing Christians who have some Godly type Love?
 
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Hammster

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I did not see where he said 'every person'...in his post...I saw where he quoted the noted scriptures.
As long as he doesn't believe it's every person, then okay.
 
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Hammster

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But that is not whom Peter is addressing according to you. You said this -

The, "you" in 2 Peter are those to whom the epistle is addressed:

Simeon Peter, a servant and apostle of Jesus Christ,

To those who have obtained a faith of equal standing with ours by therighteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ:


This is referring to those who have obtained a faith of equal standing with Peter's, according to you. This is not referring to unbelievers, but those who have obtained faith.
The passage this snippet of a verse is pulled from is talking about God destroying the earth in judgement. People are mocking saying, where is the promise of His coming? But the present world is being reserved for judgment.

A lot of folks think that, for some reason, Peter just jumps to a soteriological statement. Just 'cause. However, that's not true.

8 But do not let this one fact escape your notice, beloved, that with the Lord one day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years like one day.
9 The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance. (2 Peter 3:8, NASB)

In other words, don't worry about the mockers. God's timing is His timing. He's not slow about His promise to destroy, but is patient towards you, believers, and not wanting any of the elect to perish but come to repentance.

And then he continues on about Christ's coming. Trying to make two verses soteriological in the middle of a passage about the end times makes no sense whatsoever.

That is, unless you are trying to make it say something to doesn't in order to bolster a position.
 
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now faith

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If this has been quoted, my apologies

1 Corinthians: 2. 14. But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned. 15. But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man. 16. For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? But we have the mind of Christ.
 
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Geralt

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doing results from desiring and desiring from understanding.
understanding-> desire -> decide -> act

reformed theology does not deny the natural man 'free will', and we call it natural will, wherein he makes choices.

howover the fact that his (fallen) nature makes him "unable" and "unwilling" to understand spiritual things (1Cor2:14), so he can only makes choices and act accordingly within his "natural" understanding.

this is the difference between man "knowing there is a God" (which is the reason for many religions)
and man "knowing God";

or in reformed terminology the difference between "natural" revelation and "special" revelation.


Every time (and I mean every time) any discusion where Reformed theology is brought up, some sort of "but man has free will" argument arises, as if the secular humanistic view of free will is some sort of counter argument.

So my question is this. Can the natural man do anything that's spiritually good? Or to ask another way, can the natural man do anything to glorify God?

disclaimer: the questions may br modified if they aren't clear enough
 
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Aseyesee

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First off: I total agree God has given all humans “faith” we are start out trusting in somethings and some people including ourselves, but this is not a saving faith. We have to turn what faith (trust) we do have toward the Benevolent Creator.

Faith and Love do go together and Christians are to always be motivated by Love in all they do, but nonbelievers only can have a little faith with a child for wonderful parent love to begin with. Is Paul addressing Christians who have some Godly type Love?

He most certainly was talking to those professing to be Christians.

I have not seen the term "saving faith" in the bible, but Paul did say in Colossians as you have received Christ Jesus (which starts out with a measure, though faith the size of a mustard seed is more than proficient) and even a little faith must work by love (unless that statement to begin with is not accurate) so walk ye in him, which is simply by faith, Paul professing that you can't come to God unless you first believe that he is (which connects with the measure), and we know we cannot come to him unless he first draws us (really, how can you come to something you cannot physically see outside of faith).

It's ironic that the greatest faith that Jesus saw in all Israel was a gentile (which shows the love the centurion had for his servant) ...

For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
 
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HeLeadethMe

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All things in us, just as the kingdom goes through stages; what our will is to us goes through the same transformation simply because it is relative to our soul.

I believe in free will until our will becomes free, by becoming one with the will of our father, and this in all things, but this is not a separate truth from our soul which is my whole point about our will.

Thy kingdom come thy will be done is a reality that happens in us (firstly).

He that findeth his life/soul shall lose it: and he that loseth his life/soul for my sake shall find it.

And it begins here ... And he that taketh not his cross, and followeth after me, is not worthy of me.

Yes I agree, our will is part of our soul, just that this thread is about the will in particular. I like the way the bible puts it in the verse someone mentioned.......the word "subdue", He is able to subdue all things and put them under His feet. Overcoming is moment by moment, it is not the annihilation of our will per se, but the subduing of it. As we are willing to take up our cross and follow and let Him do that in our life. Our freewill offering.

How do you understand the cross that we take up....I have seen it as the suffering and chastisements that we undergo as we obey the Lord where and how He leads.........willingly on the altar, on the cross, like Jesus who could have come down but instead willingly obeyed the Father unto death on the cross.
 
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PeaceJoyLove

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howover the fact that his (fallen) nature makes him "unable" and "unwilling" to understand spiritual things (1Cor2:14), so he can only makes choices and act accordingly within his "natural" understanding.

this is the difference between man "knowing there is a God" (which is the reason for many religions)
and man "knowing God";

Indeed! Not knowing we are the son that we are has to do with awaking from the slumber that The Father put upon Adam to remove a part of him...that became the first Adam's helper...after both their eyes were opened and God asked "Where art thou? Who told you that you were naked" and "Have you eaten from...?" Which has to do with perception - natural or spiritual and "knowing there is a God" or "Knowing God".

God breathed "pneuma" (spirit) into Adam's nostrils and man became "a living soul". "The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit." Faith activates a duality within where 'will' comes to choosing soul-ish desire or calling of the spirit. One promises free-dom and the other is bondage...
 
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bling

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He most certainly was talking to those professing to be Christians.

I have not seen the term "saving faith" in the bible, but Paul did say in Colossians as you have received Christ Jesus (which starts out with a measure, though faith the size of a mustard seed is more than proficient) and even a little faith must work by love (unless that statement to begin with is not accurate) so walk ye in him, which is simply by faith, Paul professing that you can't come to God unless you first believe that he is (which connects with the measure), and we know we cannot come to him unless he first draws us (really, how can you come to something you cannot physically see outside of faith).

It's ironic that the greatest faith that Jesus saw in all Israel was a gentile (which shows the love the centurion had for his servant) ...

For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

As you pointed out there are degrees of faith, which suggest to me all “faith” would include faith in things and people that do not save people. 1 Cor. 13:2… if I have a faith that can move mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing. Paul suggests you can have great faith, but if it is not saving faith it is worthless?

The lowliest person on earth can trust (have faith in) a benevolent Creator for help, but placing faith in God is a humbling activity.


You might be misinterpreting Eph. 2:8

I can look up genders and dust off my Greek New Testament, but here is what Barnes and Robertson have to say and they do an honest job as far as I can tell:


And that not of yourselves - That is, salvation does not proceed from yourselves. The word rendered "that" - ͂ touto - is in the neuter gender, and the word "faith" - ́ pistis - is in the feminine. The word "that," therefore, does not refer particularly to faith, as being the gift of God, but to "the salvation by grace" of which he had been speaking. This is the interpretation of the passage which is the most obvious, and which is now generally conceded to be the true one; see Bloomfield. Many critics, however, as Doddridge, Beza, Piscator, and Chrysostom, maintain that the word "that" ( ͂ touto ) refers to "faith" ( ́ pistis ); and Doddridge maintains that such a use is common in the New Testament. As a matter of grammar this opinion is certainly doubtful, if not untenable; but as a matter of theology it is a question of very little importance.



Robertson, on the topic of pronouns, wrote:

9. Gender and Number of outos. ... In general, like other adjectives, outos agrees with its substantive in gender and number, whether predicate or attributive. ... In Eph. 2:8 , ..., there is no reference to pisteos in touto, but rather to the idea of salvation in the clause before. (A. T. Robertson, A Grammar of the New Testament, p.704)


Robertson, on the topic of particles, wrote:

(ii) Kai. ... The Mere Connective ('And') ... kai tauta (frequent in ancient Greek). See in particular Eph. 2:8 , kai touto ouk ex umon, where touto refers to the whole conception, not to chariti. (A. T. Robertson, A Grammar of the New Testament, pp. 1181-1182)


Robertson, on the topic of prepositions, wrote:

(d) dia ... 3. 'Passing Between' or 'Through.' The idea of interval between leads naturally to that of passing between two objects or parts of objects. 'Through' is thus not the original meaning of dia, but is a very common one. ... The agent may also be expressed by dia. This function was also performed in the ancient Greek, through, when means or instrument was meant, the instrumental case was commonly employed. dia is thus used with inanimate and animate objects. Here, of course, the agent is conceived as coming in between the non-attainmnet and the attainment of the object in view. ... Abstract ideas are frequently so expressed, as sesosmenoi dia pisteos (Eph. 2:8 ), ... (A. T. Robertson, A Grammar of the New Testament, pp. 580-582)

The gift from God is referring to the salvation which comes by faith and not the faith itself. This you can also figure out from the next verse without the Greek.
 
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Aseyesee

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As you pointed out there are degrees of faith, which suggest to me all “faith” would include faith in things and people that do not save people. 1 Cor. 13:2… if I have a faith that can move mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing. Paul suggests you can have great faith, but if it is not saving faith it is worthless?

The lowliest person on earth can trust (have faith in) a benevolent Creator for help, but placing faith in God is a humbling activity.


You might be misinterpreting Eph. 2:8

I can look up genders and dust off my Greek New Testament, but here is what Barnes and Robertson have to say and they do an honest job as far as I can tell:


And that not of yourselves - That is, salvation does not proceed from yourselves. The word rendered "that" - ͂ touto - is in the neuter gender, and the word "faith" - ́ pistis - is in the feminine. The word "that," therefore, does not refer particularly to faith, as being the gift of God, but to "the salvation by grace" of which he had been speaking. This is the interpretation of the passage which is the most obvious, and which is now generally conceded to be the true one; see Bloomfield. Many critics, however, as Doddridge, Beza, Piscator, and Chrysostom, maintain that the word "that" ( ͂ touto ) refers to "faith" ( ́ pistis ); and Doddridge maintains that such a use is common in the New Testament. As a matter of grammar this opinion is certainly doubtful, if not untenable; but as a matter of theology it is a question of very little importance.



Robertson, on the topic of pronouns, wrote:

9. Gender and Number of outos. ... In general, like other adjectives, outos agrees with its substantive in gender and number, whether predicate or attributive. ... In Eph. 2:8 , ..., there is no reference to pisteos in touto, but rather to the idea of salvation in the clause before. (A. T. Robertson, A Grammar of the New Testament, p.704)


Robertson, on the topic of particles, wrote:

(ii) Kai. ... The Mere Connective ('And') ... kai tauta (frequent in ancient Greek). See in particular Eph. 2:8 , kai touto ouk ex umon, where touto refers to the whole conception, not to chariti. (A. T. Robertson, A Grammar of the New Testament, pp. 1181-1182)


Robertson, on the topic of prepositions, wrote:

(d) dia ... 3. 'Passing Between' or 'Through.' The idea of interval between leads naturally to that of passing between two objects or parts of objects. 'Through' is thus not the original meaning of dia, but is a very common one. ... The agent may also be expressed by dia. This function was also performed in the ancient Greek, through, when means or instrument was meant, the instrumental case was commonly employed. dia is thus used with inanimate and animate objects. Here, of course, the agent is conceived as coming in between the non-attainmnet and the attainment of the object in view. ... Abstract ideas are frequently so expressed, as sesosmenoi dia pisteos (Eph. 2:8 ), ... (A. T. Robertson, A Grammar of the New Testament, pp. 580-582)

The gift from God is referring to the salvation which comes by faith and not the faith itself. This you can also figure out from the next verse without the Greek.

So faith can work without love (which makes Paul's statement not exactly true) ... and the measure of faith given is not a gift from God?and cannot save you ...

To me salvation and faith are not separate things (just as the beginning and the end of our faith are not separate things). Faith is an ever inreasing truth, just as salvation is an eternal gospel, in the light of a kingdom whose increase that has no end.

Faith is the person (express image of his person/substance) of things hoped for, my evidence of those things that are not seen yet.
 
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HeLeadethMe

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"but placing faith in God is a humbling activity."

YES!! A thousand times YES!!!

Pardon my interruption....I haven't been following the thread of your whole conversation on this, but this stood out to me. If it is not humbling us, it is not of God....because everything we receive in Him, if it is truly of Christ and not of another, it humbles us, because it is a narrow gate, and what we go through to get through, almost by definition it humbles us and we know that what we receive is not of OUR own, but of HIM alone.

It is very possible to receive things without going by way of the cross, to have faith that moves mountains but without love...... like the devil tempted Jesus with the kingdoms of the world if He would bypass His cross........but those who have received in this manner we see how it spoils them, it feeds their pride rather than humbling them, they become ruined by their spiritual "success" so to speak.......for example many of the men of renown that we have all seen on television.

Just wanted to get that out, thanks.
 
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