On Christians not wanted outsiders

[Celticflower]

I'm just going by what the Bible says. In the Bible, we're never told anything about teaching the lost about the Bible. We're always told to share the Gospel with them, then, once they get saved, make disciples of them and teach them the Bible.

hate to break it to you, but Jesus didn't teach the Bible cos there was no Bible. He did use Hebrew scripture quite often tho', using it to teach.

Sorry, but that's just not how the Bible tells us to do evangelise.

The Bible is not going to tell you to use the Bible because the Bible as we know it did not exist. Yes, we are to preach the Gospel, but where do we find that Gospel message?? Could it be in the Bible?? So how do you preach the Gospel to unbelievers without the Bible?.

Why would Jesus tell us to go to the unsaved and preach the Gospel to them if there weren't a way for us to know who is a Christian and who isn't?

Because it is the unsaved (as well as the saved) who need to hear the message. It doesn't matter if you are a Christian or not. If you are you need to be reminded of the message. If you are not you need to be told so you have a reason to become one.

We don't tell them that. We tell them that, because of their sins, they're enemies of God and are in danger of facing His wrath on Judgement Day, and that if they die in their sins, they will go to Hell.

Pretty words, but same basic idea.

I disagree. That isn't how the Bible tells us to do evangelism. That isn't how Jesus did evangelism

And none of us is privy to the insights Jesus had because of who He was and is. You keep saying "the Bible tells us" or "The Bible doesn't say" -- but you forget - the Bible wasn't the Bible when the documents were written. The people of that time were passing things on by word of mouth often from first hand experiences. We don't have that. We are too many generations removed. So we now have the Bible, but that doesn't mean that we shouldn't use the Bible to reached the unsaved. If it did, all those Bibles the Gideons put in hotel rooms that are picked up and read by someone at a low point and then taken by that person who then turns their life over to God after reading the Bible is just an empty exercise if the person was not already a Christian. Humbug!

You say about how Jesus did evangelism - but have you looked at the how He really did it? Did He meet people with a confrontation of how bad they were and how doomed they were? Or did He approach them with love, compassion and forgiveness? The only direct condemnation was to the leaders of the temple -- those who should have known better, but were power hungry, greedy and prideful.

There is an old saw about attracting more bees with honey than vinegar - works when spreading the Gospel too. You are more likely to get someone to listen to you if you approach them in a loving manner than hit them with the "oh sinner man you gonna burn in Hell if you don't get right with God" line. Show me you love me before you tell me what is wrong with me - I'll be more open to listening to you and following your advice. And lots of people are just the same way. There is enough gloom and doom in their lives that when you open with that salvo they just pass on by. They already feel that life is a living hell, they don't need you to tell them it is gonna get worse. But if you tell them that there is someone who truly loves them and wants the best for them, maybe they will listen. Then when you get to the part about sins and hell you won't scare them away - because you have already held out some hope to them.

Maybe the "turn or burn" evangelism style works on some people, but it also turns many away. And it is those lost sheep that still need to be gathered. They are scared and hurting, and need a message of love to help them overcome the fear. They need to be welcomed into a church community, told the wonderful story of Jesus - from the Bible- and given hope, not more fear. The world is harsh enough with out Christians adding to it.

 

[GreenMunchkin]

DP, has being involved in it had any impact on your view of Christianity, and Christ?

 

[JohnDeereFan]

hate to break it to you, but Jesus didn't teach the Bible cos there was no Bible. He did use Hebrew scripture quite often tho', using it to teach.

I don't know where you got that idea. Jesus teaches from the Bible every time He opens His mouth in the New Testament.

The Bible is not going to tell you to use the Bible because the Bible as we know it did not exist.

2/3 of the books that make up the Bible did exist and there is very, very little in the New Testament that cannot be found in the Old Testament.

Yes, we are to preach the Gospel, but where do we find that Gospel message?? Could it be in the Bible?? So how do you preach the Gospel to unbelievers without the Bible?

Why would we try to preach the Gospel without the Bible?

Because it is the unsaved (as well as the saved) who need to hear the message.

But I thought we couldn't judge who is unsaved.

Pretty words, but same basic idea.

No, it isn't the same basic idea at all.

And none of us is privy to the insights Jesus had because of who He was and is.

Those of us who still believe His word are.

You keep saying "the Bible tells us" or "The Bible doesn't say" -- but you forget - the Bible wasn't the Bible when the documents were written.

But the individual books and letters that make up the Bible were and, anyway, your point is moot because we're talking about the Bible now, not the Bible then.

You say about how Jesus did evangelism - but have you looked at the how He really did it?

Yes, I have. That's how I know how He did it.

Did He meet people with a confrontation of how bad they were and how doomed they were? Or did He approach them with love, compassion and forgiveness?

Everytime Jesus did evangelism, He started out with the law and explaining to them that they have broken God's laws.

There is an old saw about attracting more bees with honey than vinegar - works when spreading the Gospel too.

I don't care about attracting bees. I'm more concerned with seeing sinners saved.

You are more likely to get someone to listen to you if you approach them in a loving manner than hit them with the "oh sinner man you gonna burn in Hell if you don't get right with God" line.

You obviously don't know how we do evangelism.

Show me you love me before you tell me what is wrong with me - I'll be more open to listening to you and following your advice.

When I talk to people on the street, there is no way to show them that I love them. I believe that the love comes through in my concern for them and my presentation of the Gospel.

And lots of people are just the same way. There is enough gloom and doom in their lives that when you open with that salvo they just pass on by.

Again, you're making assumptions about the way we do evangelism that simply aren't true.

They already feel that life is a living hell, they don't need you to tell them it is gonna get worse. But if you tell them that there is someone who truly loves them and wants the best for them, maybe they will listen.

But we're called to share the Gospel with them, not convince them that Jesus is their big, cosmic buddy.

Maybe the "turn or burn" evangelism style works on some people, but it also turns many away.

It turned people away when Jesus did it, too.

They need to be welcomed into a church community, told the wonderful story of Jesus - from the Bible- and given hope, not more fear. The world is harsh enough with out Christians adding to it.

No, being a Christian is a requirement for church membership. Non-Christians cannot be church members.

 

[Celticflower]

Sorry, but your whole idea seems very exclusionary to me and a bit confusing. First you say you aren't supposed to teach from the Bible to the unsaved, then you say you are to preach the Gospel to them from the Bible. Isn't preaching a form of teaching?

Sure church membership is supposed to be just Christians, (I'm sure you know posers and pew warmers who claim membership) but if you do not let the non-Christians in the door, or into your circle of connections, how do you expect to ever get them to be Christians? Why must you put up this great divide? Shouldn't we be reaching across the divide to bring them home and not making it wider and harder to cross?

 

[JohnDeereFan]

Sorry, but your whole idea seems very exclusionary to me and a bit confusing. First you say you aren't supposed to teach from the Bible to the unsaved, then you say you are to preach the Gospel to them from the Bible. Isn't preaching a form of teaching?

No. Preaching the Gospel is not the same as teaching the Bible.

Sure church membership is supposed to be just Christians, (I'm sure you know posers and pew warmers who claim membership) but if you do not let the non-Christians in the door, or into your circle of connections, how do you expect to ever get them to be Christians?

Well, first of all, who ever said that we don't allow non-Christians in our church? They're more than welcome to visit.

Shouldn't we be reaching across the divide to bring them home and not making it wider and harder to cross?

"Home"?

 

[arunma]

I don't know if someone answered this and I just lost the response in the rest of this ever-expanding thread. But what the hell does a skate park have to do with keeping people out of hell?

The lesson that is required in order to use the park almost seems like paying people to become Christians. The Bible says,

For we are not, like so many, peddlers of God's word, but as men of sincerity, as commissioned by God, in the sight of God we speak in Christ. (2 Corinthians 2:17)
​

Peddling God's word is a serious sin. Again I can't judge accurately without actually knowing the person who is building the skate park. But from what I'm hearing, this seems like a terrible idea. The church ought to be preaching that people are sinners headed for hell, and that Jesus Christ came to save sinners. How does a skate park that pays people to hear the Gospel accomplish this? Worse, what does it reflect about Jesus Christ when his professing servants are bribing people into the kingdom?

 

[Celticflower]

Home - back to God, heading for heaven, part of the family of God.

You remind me of two young ladies who showed up on my porch unannounced one evening. Without any prelude or introductions they began screaming at me at the top of their lungs, telling me I was going to hell if I didn't "get right with God". That I was lost in a lake of sins without a life preserver and I was heading for eternal damnation. Apparently they wanted to make sure that not only did I hear them, but so did anyone else in the house and everyone 4 houses away in all directions. (all while an adult waiting on the sidewalk nodded inagreement with all they said) When they finally stopped to take a breath, I politely told them that I did not have time to listen to their tirade as I was getting ready to attend choir practice - at the UMC where I was a member. I also told them that I did not appreciate being shouted at by two strangers At this the two girls looked confused. They had not been instructed on how to deal with someone with faith and manners. And it's not like I would have had any inclination to join their church even if I didn't have prior faith and membership. I'm not into rude, in your face types of people.

So as I did to those young ladies, I now do to this thread - quietly close the door.

 

[JohnDeereFan]

You remind me of two young ladies who showed up on my porch unannounced one evening. Without any prelude or introductions they began screaming at me at the top of their lungs, telling me I was going to hell if I didn't "get right with God".

Like I said, you seem to like to make assumptions about the way we do evangelism. Unfortunately, nothing you've said even comes close to the way we do evangelism.

When they finally stopped to take a breath, I politely told them that I did not have time to listen to their tirade as I was getting ready to attend choir practice - at the UMC where I was a member. I also told them that I did not appreciate being shouted at by two strangers At this the two girls looked confused. They had not been instructed on how to deal with someone with faith and manners.

As you, yourself, have shown here, just because somebody claims to be a Christian doesn't mean that they understand what evangelism is.

 

[DarkProphet]

DP, has being involved in it had any impact on your view of Christianity, and Christ?

No, it hasn't. I have learned a lot more about Christianity and Christians though.

 

[DarkProphet]

I don't know if someone answered this and I just lost the response in the rest of this ever-expanding thread. But what the hell does a skate park have to do with keeping people out of hell?

The lesson that is required in order to use the park almost seems like paying people to become Christians. The Bible says,

For we are not, like so many, peddlers of God's word, but as men of sincerity, as commissioned by God, in the sight of God we speak in Christ. (2 Corinthians 2:17)
​

Peddling God's word is a serious sin. Again I can't judge accurately without actually knowing the person who is building the skate park. But from what I'm hearing, this seems like a terrible idea. The church ought to be preaching that people are sinners headed for hell, and that Jesus Christ came to save sinners. How does a skate park that pays people to hear the Gospel accomplish this? Worse, what does it reflect about Jesus Christ when his professing servants are bribing people into the kingdom?

I never heard of that before, that you are not supposed to bribe people to hear the Gospel. I suppose it makes sense but it doesn't match what I see many churches doing. I'm guessing that they are supposed to be drawn by the word alone then?

 

[DarkProphet]

Like I said, you seem to like to make assumptions about the way we do evangelism. Unfortunately, nothing you've said even comes close to the way we do evangelism.

As you, yourself, have shown here, just because somebody claims to be a Christian doesn't mean that they understand what evangelism is.

You keep talking as if your group is the only group ever to do evangelism right. If that's the case could you be more specific on HOW your group does evangelism?

 

[JohnDeereFan]

You keep talking as if your group is the only group ever to do evangelism right.

I do? Really? I don't recall saying anything like that. Perhaps you could refresh my memory and show me where I said that.

 

[GreenMunchkin]

No, it hasn't. I have learned a lot more about Christianity and Christians though.

I think in some ways that may be quite telling, d00d.

Thing is, I don't think anyone who is truly exposed to Him can reject Him. He's too beautiful, and everything else sort of pales in comparison. If this ministry was Spirit-filled and glorifying God, I can't help but think it will have had at least some impact on your views of Him, and of Christianity in general.

Jesus reached out to people; He healed the sick, resurrected the dead, fed the hungry, loved the unwanteds... but all of that was done partly so they'd acknowledge His majesty and follow Him. When He forgave Mary, He told her to sin no more. He was loving for love's sake, but He was also loving because He wanted for people to follow Him so they could be given eternal life.

If your friend's ministry - however wonderful - isn't having any effect on the lives of people involved in it, isn't showing them the face of Christ, it's possibly not being done in His name. Nothing done in His name returns void, see. And if that's the case, the church may not feel it can continue to support it financially. Tis possible.

 

[arunma]

You keep talking as if your group is the only group ever to do evangelism right. If that's the case could you be more specific on HOW your group does evangelism?

DarkProphet, I think it's important to understand why some of us are opposed to this skate park idea. Observe that you yourself are having a casual discussion with us on evangelism. But has your friend ever told you that you are going to hell and need Christ Jesus to save your soul from sure destruction? Millions of people in this world, including yourself, are headed for hell, and it seems that the skate park has thus far failed to cut you to the heart with the truth of the Gospel of Christ.

I know that you are rather opposed to the Gospel. So, I must ask, why are you in favor of any sort of Christian evangelism? Could it be that the skate park idea is less offensive to you because it is devoid of the Gospel? I know that you probably don't want to be told that you're going to hell, so if you are in favor of the skate park, it seems to me that it's probably because no one there tells you that you are a sinner in need of repentance and the blood of Christ. Again, keep in mind that everything I know about the skate park I know from what you've told me. So I could be misjudging the situation.

 

[DarkProphet]

Thing is, I don't think anyone who is truly exposed to Him can reject Him. He's too beautiful, and everything else sort of pales in comparison. If this ministry was Spirit-filled and glorifying God, I can't help but think it will have had at least some impact on your views of Him, and of Christianity in general.

It has had some impact just not the kind you would want.

Jesus reached out to people; He healed the sick, resurrected the dead, fed the hungry, loved the unwanteds... but all of that was done partly so they'd acknowledge His majesty and follow Him. When He forgave Mary, He told her to sin no more. He was loving for love's sake, but He was also loving because He wanted for people to follow Him so they could be given eternal life.

I see, his love came with a price.

If your friend's ministry - however wonderful - isn't having any effect on the lives of people involved in it, isn't showing them the face of Christ, it's possibly not being done in His name. Nothing done in His name returns void, see. And if that's the case, the church may not feel it can continue to support it financially. Tis possible.

"Returns void"? What would be the desired outcome?

 

[DarkProphet]

DarkProphet, I think it's important to understand why some of us are opposed to this skate park idea. Observe that you yourself are having a casual discussion with us on evangelism. But has your friend ever told you that you are going to hell and need Christ Jesus to save your soul from sure destruction? Millions of people in this world, including yourself, are headed for hell, and it seems that the skate park has thus far failed to cut you to the heart with the truth of the Gospel of Christ.

Truth should be self evident, the Gospel is not.

I know that you are rather opposed to the Gospel. So, I must ask, why are you in favor of any sort of Christian evangelism?

I'm not, I'm in favor of the program because I've seen the good it has done for the community. It seems that Christians only care about adding members to their club though.

Could it be that the skate park idea is less offensive to you because it is devoid of the Gospel?

I wouldn't say it's devoid of the Gospel.

I know that you probably don't want to be told that you're going to hell, so if you are in favor of the skate park, it seems to me that it's probably because no one there tells you that you are a sinner in need of repentance and the blood of Christ.

Again, many of the lessons are like that. Terrible message btw but it's the churches message.

Again, keep in mind that everything I know about the skate park I know from what you've told me. So I could be misjudging the situation.

It is a complex situation.

 

[arunma]

Truth should be self evident, the Gospel is not.

First of all, I disagree with your premise. As a scientist I deal with truths that are not self-evident every day. Likewise, science demonstrates that many truths run contrary to intuition. So your common sense is not, in general, an effective way of deducing truth.

Secondly, the Gospel is not supposed to be self-evident. The Bible states that God has revealed many things to humanity through the general revelation of nature. He has also revealed certain things, including the Gospel, through the special revelation of the prophets and apostles. You can't deduce the Gospel from some basic set of axioms.

I'm not, I'm in favor of the program because I've seen the good it has done for the community. It seems that Christians only care about adding members to their club though.

It's not much of a club if membership is free, is it? But as to the supposed good that the skate park does in the community, how are you measuring this good? Does the skate park inspire people to worship the God of Israel and believe in his Son Jesus? It doesn't seem to have had such an effect on you.

I wouldn't say it's devoid of the Gospel.

Again, many of the lessons are like that. Terrible message btw but it's the churches message.

If hearing a message is a prerequisite for using the skate park, then apparently the skate park is devoid of the Gospel. God gave us the free gift of his Son Jesus. You can't sell the Gospel, nor can you pay people to receive it.

 

[GreenMunchkin]

It has had some impact just not the kind you would want.

What change has it made?

I see, his love came with a price.

Yes. And He paid it.

"Returns void"? What would be the desired outcome?

k, let me ask you a question: if this ministry isn't winning people to Christ, how is it different from a secular youth group?

I'm not saying it isn't winning people. Am very much speaking in generalities because there isn't enough information to be specific, but if a Christian ministry isn't achieving anything a comparitive secular group isn't, what makes it Christian?

 

[DarkProphet]

It's not much of a club if membership is free, is it?

I was referring to the church more then anything else, and it's only free in theory, they still pass around the collection plate with everyone watching.

But as to the supposed good that the skate park does in the community, how are you measuring this good? Does the skate park inspire people to worship the God of Israel and believe in his Son Jesus? It doesn't seem to have had such an effect on you.

I find it interesting that the only "good" that Christians can see is whether or not they believe exactly the same thing as you. No, what I was referring to was the kids the program has helped through rough times and the safe environment it provides in an otherwise bad neighborhood.

If hearing a message is a prerequisite for using the skate park, then apparently the skate park is devoid of the Gospel. God gave us the free gift of his Son Jesus. You can't sell the Gospel, nor can you pay people to receive it.

Fair enough. I will have to bring this to the attention of my friend because I've never heard this before. On a side note, the church does have camps and fun activities for it's own people. While those people could be said to have already heard the Gospel I wonder if it couldn't taken as an incentive to stay.

 

[DarkProphet]

What change has it made?

It solidified the reasons as to WHY I don't believe. At the same time it has shown me the importance of community.

Yes. And He paid it.

Yet something is still required of us.

k, let me ask you a question: if this ministry isn't winning people to Christ, how is it different from a secular youth group?

I can't say it is or isn't "winning people". I do know it has brought more people to the church, I mean to the actual church not the just the program. In that regard it would be different from a secular program.

I'm not saying it isn't winning people. Am very much speaking in generalities because there isn't enough information to be specific, but if a Christian ministry isn't achieving anything a comparitive secular group isn't, what makes it Christian?

That's a good question, to which I have no answer to, but honestly what makes anything or anyone "Christian"?

I suppose the main problem I have with all this is the hypocrisy of the church. They have a mission statement to reach out to people and at the same time they are squeezing the one program that reaches out to the neighborhood.