On Christians not wanted outsiders

[JohnDeereFan]

Dark Prophet, now it appears that you're just here to argue and stir up trouble.

What questions relating to the OP do you feel have not been answered yet?

 

[JohnDeereFan]

I suppose the main problem I have with all this is the hypocrisy of the church. They have a mission statement to reach out to people and at the same time they are squeezing the one program that reaches out to the neighborhood.

It isn't hypocrisy at all. Where does the Bible tell the church to provide entertainment for the community?

The real hypocrisy is your friend refusing to submit to those in authority over him and setting a bad example for the children you say he's trying to reach.

 

[AV1611VET]

I suppose the main problem I have with all this is the hypocrisy of the church. They have a mission statement to reach out to people and at the same time they are squeezing the one program that reaches out to the neighborhood.

Put a bar in --- that'll really reach out, eh?

That way, when someone comes home fallen-down drunk, and the wife says, "Where you been"?

He can say, "Been to church. Where else?"

 

[DarkProphet]

Dark Prophet, now it appears that you're just here to argue and stir up trouble.

I would say the same about you.

What questions relating to the OP do you feel have not been answered yet?

I see, you wish to end all discussion, truly the Christian way.

It isn't hypocrisy at all. Where does the Bible tell the church to provide entertainment for the community?

Entertainment is a component but not the sole component of the program.

The real hypocrisy is your friend refusing to submit to those in authority over him and setting a bad example for the children you say he's trying to reach.

The church has never told my friend to shut down the program. Instead they use underhanded and political tactics to try to drive him out. In anycase, I find it troubling that you find blind obedience to authority such a virtue.

 

[DarkProphet]

Put a bar in --- that'll really reach out, eh?

That way, when someone comes home fallen-down drunk, and the wife says, "Where you been"?

He can say, "Been to church. Where else?"

Are you equating skaters to drunks?

 

[AV1611VET]

Are you equating skaters to drunks?

Cute --- I'm equating the attraction potential of bars to the attraction potential of skate parks.

Hello?

 

[DarkProphet]

Cute --- I'm equating the attraction potential of bars to the attraction potential of skate parks.

What about AA? Doesn't that draw people in? or is that only for current members?

 

[AV1611VET]

What about AA? Doesn't that draw people in? or is that only for current members?

I don't understand your question --- unless "current" is a play on words.

 

[DarkProphet]

I don't understand your question --- unless "current" is a play on words.

AA = Alcoholics Anonymous

You know that Christian program to reach out to alcoholics, lots of televangelists are VERY familiar with it.

I fail to see why it would be OK to use a program like that but somehow a skate program would be bad.

 

[JohnDeereFan]

I would say the same about you.

I believe I've answered your questions sincerely.

I see, you wish to end all discussion, truly the Christian way.

And this is exactly what I'm talking about. I never said anything about ending the discussion. The reason I asked was so that I could answer your question and have a discussion with you but it is becoming increasingly clear that that is not your goal.

Entertainment is a component but not the sole component of the program.

But there should be no entertainment at all.

The church has never told my friend to shut down the program. Instead they use underhanded and political tactics to try to drive him out.

The result is the same: they don't want the program.

In anycase, I find it troubling that you find blind obedience to authority such a virtue.

I never said anything about blind obedience. There are times when it is OK to be disobedient.

In this case, he is operating as an agent of the church and under the authority of the church and he should be obedient to the people in the church who are in authority over him.

In any event, I'm coming to believe, based on your comments to me and to other posters that you're not sincere and I believe that every question related to the OP has been answered by us, so I'm out.

 

[AV1611VET]

AA = Alcoholics Anonymous

Oh, that.

You know that Christian program to reach out to alcoholics, lots of televangelists are VERY familiar with it.

"Christian program"?

I fail to see why it would be OK to use a program like that but somehow a skate program would be bad.

"Christian program"?

Do you, perchance, mean "Alcoholics Victorious"?

 

[DarkProphet]

In any event, I'm coming to believe, based on your comments to me and to other posters that you're not sincere and I believe that every question related to the OP has been answered by us, so I'm out.

Sorry if I've offended but I really do want to get your point of view on this. Honestly it's very different from not only mine but from most Christians I've encountered.

But there should be no entertainment at all.

Do you mean no entertainment in evangelism or no entertainment in Christianity at all? Also, how do you get peoples attention? I mean even Billy Graham has a concert before he speaks and when he speaks he has a few jokes in there.

 

[JohnDeereFan]

Oh, that."Christian program"?"Christian program"?

Yeah, that was news to me, too. Since when is AA a Christian program?

 

[DarkProphet]

Oh, that."Christian program"?"Christian program"?

I was under the impression that the 11th step was to find God.

Do you, perchance, mean "Alcoholics Victorious"?

Had to look it up. The twelve steps are the same but with Bible quotes added. So yes I suppose that would be a better example of Christian program that draws in people.

 

[JohnDeereFan]

Do you mean no entertainment in evangelism or no entertainment in Christianity at all? Also, how do you get peoples attention? I mean even Billy Graham has a concert before he speaks and when he speaks he has a few jokes in there.

Billy Graham is not the standard. The Bible is the standard and nowhere in the Bible are we told that it's the job of the church to provide entertainment for the world.

 

[AV1611VET]

Billy Graham is not the standard. The Bible is the standard and nowhere in the Bible are we told that it's the job of the church to provide entertainment for the world.

 

[DarkProphet]

Billy Graham is not the standard. The Bible is the standard and nowhere in the Bible are we told that it's the job of the church to provide entertainment for the world.

You'll understand my confusion then, most evangelism I've encountered has involved some form of entertainment. It would seem hard to give a message like the message in the Bible without some form of entertainment. In anycase, this is getting far from the OP so I created a new thread on evangelism.

 

[JohnDeereFan]

You'll understand my confusion then, most evangelism I've encountered has involved some form of entertainment.

Most evangelism out there today involves all sorts of Unbiblical methods and produces a lot of false converts. That's why we do what the Bible says to do and not what is popular in pop-Christianity.

It would seem hard to give a message like the message in the Bible without some form of entertainment. In anycase, this is getting far from the OP so I created a new thread on evangelism.

And yet, the greatest preachers in history managed to do just fine without providing entertainment.

 

[arunma]

I was referring to the church more then anything else, and it's only free in theory, they still pass around the collection plate with everyone watching.

I think you know that it is quite wrong to accuse churches of using collections as a guilt trip. The Bible itself prescribes collections (1 Corinthians 16:1-2). While the specific method of the collection plate is not prescribed (my church has offering boxes at the back of the auditorium), most pastors make it a point to not be aware of individual members' givings. And ultimately, how do you think churches raise the money to meet their operating costs? You condemn the church for doing precisely the same thing that secular organizations do all the time. And at least we teach people not to take pride in their givings.

I find it interesting that the only "good" that Christians can see is whether or not they believe exactly the same thing as you. No, what I was referring to was the kids the program has helped through rough times and the safe environment it provides in an otherwise bad neighborhood.

Two points. First, you've been vague enough about the rough times and the safe environment that none of us can really see the tangible benefit. Secondly, I care nothing for intellectual assent. I care about people like yourself, who are currently going to hell, actively turning away from their sin and loving Jesus Christ wholeheartedly so that you will be saved. See this from my perspective: I believe the Biblical truth that your soul will be eternally tormented because you are guilty of sin. As far as I'm concerned, the greatest good that I can do for you is to convince you to repent and believe in the Gospel. The skate park will do no good when all those kids grow up, die, and end up in hell because they never placed their faith in Christ. Nor will it do you any good if you are in hell some day.

Fair enough. I will have to bring this to the attention of my friend because I've never heard this before. On a side note, the church does have camps and fun activities for it's own people. While those people could be said to have already heard the Gospel I wonder if it couldn't taken as an incentive to stay.

Accusing the church of using activities as an incentive to remain is also a rather inappropriate argument. It certainly could be the case that this church (which I know nothing about) insincerely uses various activities to entice people to stay. But most of those kids would probably have more fun doing drugs with their friends and having sex with their girlfriends. If anyone remains in the church, it is because they derive a greater joy from Jesus Christ than from sin and false religions. There's certainly nothing wrong with Christians having fun as a group. What I am saying is that the mission of the church to the outside world is not to entertain, but to preach the good news of salvation through Christ to people such as yourself who are currently destined for hell.

 

[DarkProphet]

Two points. First, you've been vague enough about the rough times and the safe environment that none of us can really see the tangible benefit.

Without being there I guess it wouldn't be able to.

Secondly, I care nothing for intellectual assent. I care about people like yourself, who are currently going to hell, actively turning away from their sin and loving Jesus Christ wholeheartedly so that you will be saved. See this from my perspective: I believe the Biblical truth that your soul will be eternally tormented because you are guilty of sin. As far as I'm concerned, the greatest good that I can do for you is to convince you to repent and believe in the Gospel. The skate park will do no good when all those kids grow up, die, and end up in hell because they never placed their faith in Christ. Nor will it do you any good if you are in hell some day.

I don't believe in your religion or your hell so what concerns me are the problems here and now.