On "analyzing" science that you don't understand

Astrophile

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So being a so-called expert or teacher does not guarantee what they teaching is actually true. The biology text being taught and supported by Clarence Darrow and the ACLU (who hired him) one allegedly "expert" conclusion reads:

At the present time there exist upon the earth five races or varieties of man, each very different from the other in instincts, social customs, and, to an extent, structure. These are the Ethiopian or negro type, originating in Africa; the Malay or brown race, from the islands of the Pacific; the American Indian; the Mongolian or yellow race, including the natives of China, Japan, and the Eskimos; and finally, the highest type of all, the Caucasians, represented by the civilized white inhabitants of Europe and America.” (Hunter, Civic Biology, 1914)

It was supported by the ideas of people like Huxley, Proveos, Sanger, Herbert Spencer and more alleged enlightened social and scientific heroes, but would you really want this taught to YOUR children as established fact? Answer right you pass answer wrong you fail...Darwinians believed it and taught it as a fact, but was it? Is it? Seriously think about this!

There are two questions that you should ask yourself. First, what did other people living at the same time, such as politicians, clergymen, lawyers, novelists, poets, actors, athletes, etc., think about human races? Did they agree with the biology text, or did they say that it was wrong? In short, was it only 'Darwinians' who believed and taught it, or was it the general belief?

Second, what has brought about the change in our understanding of the supposed 'races of man'? Have we become more humane? Was it the work of heroes like Martin Luther King and Nelson Mandela? Is it the result of improved travel, so that we can meet people from other continents? Or is it that the ethnological science of 90 or 100 years ago has been superseded by later research, just as has happened in most other branches of science?

By the way, who was Proveos?
 
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PsychoSarah

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Again, so incredibly unlikely that it's pointless to even entertain the idea is still not impossible. We can't be 100% certain, only 99.9999999999999999999999% certain.
I'm not sure if you are mocking me or not. Certainty doesn't make someone correct when it is based in garbage. When there is a 99% chance that a given conclusion is accurate, and a 1% chance that it's not, jumping on that 1% doesn't seem particularly logical to me.
 
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LutheranGuy123

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I'm not sure if you are mocking me or not. Certainty doesn't make someone correct when it is based in garbage. When there is a 99% chance that a given conclusion is accurate, and a 1% chance that it's not, jumping on that 1% doesn't seem particularly logical to me.
It isn't logical, no. Nor is it something sane people do. But you're saying that we know for a fact that they aren't correct based on low likelihood that they are.
 
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Astrophile

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So being a so-called expert or teacher does not guarantee what they teaching is actually true. The biology text being taught and supported by Clarence Darrow and the ACLU (who hired him) one allegedly "expert" conclusion reads:

At the present time there exist upon the earth five races or varieties of man, each very different from the other in instincts, social customs, and, to an extent, structure. These are the Ethiopian or negro type, originating in Africa; the Malay or brown race, from the islands of the Pacific; the American Indian; the Mongolian or yellow race, including the natives of China, Japan, and the Eskimos; and finally, the highest type of all, the Caucasians, represented by the civilized white inhabitants of Europe and America.” (Hunter, Civic Biology, 1914)

It was supported by the ideas of people like Huxley, Proveos, Sanger, Herbert Spencer and more alleged enlightened social and scientific heroes, but would you really want this taught to YOUR children as established fact? Answer right you pass answer wrong you fail...Darwinians believed it and taught it as a fact, but was it? Is it? Seriously think about this!

There are two other questions one could ask about this. First, how many of the people who read or were taught this passage from Civic Biology actually believed it because the experts said it was true? After all, since about 1960 American public schools have taught that the Earth is about 4560 million years old and that living things have evolved by the transmutation of species, because that it what the experts say, but more than 40% of Americans are young Earth creationists, and this percentage has not changed significantly in the last 35 years.

We have all been thoroughly indoctrinated into the belief that the Earth is approximately spherical and that it revolves around the Sun with an orbital period of a year. All the experts agree on these facts, and even most creationists accept them. However, 'a third of the British population still believes that the sun goes round the earth', and a further 19% 'believe it takes one month for the Earth to go around the sun' (Richard Dawkins: Unweaving the Rainbow, page 32; The Greatest Show on Earth, page 434). As for the shape of the Earth, there are contributors to these forums who reject the opinion of the experts and who say that the Earth is flat. If people are so resistant to teaching and indoctrination by experts, what makes you think that they believed what Civic Biology said about the supposed races of man?

Second, why do you think that Civic Biology was wrong about the supposed human races and our modern ideas, in which there are no true races of man and there is more genetic diversity in Africa than in all the other continents put together, are more nearly correct? During the early 19th century, experts in geology and biology agreed that the sedimentary rocks were deposited by Noah's flood, or at least that geological processes were catastrophic, and that biological species were immutable? Now, 200 years later, experts in these sciences say that there was no worldwide flood, that geological processes are actualistic and gradualistic and that the fossiliferous sedimentary rocks were deposited over more than 500 million years, and that living things have evolved by the transmutation of species. Which of these two sets of experts do you agree with, those of the early 19th century, or those of 2017? If you think that the more recent experts are not automatically more likely to be correct, what grounds are there for thinking that modern ideas about human races are more correct than those presented in Civic Biology?

A third question: who was Proveos?
 
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joshua 1 9

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he nevertheless has the ability to rebut evolution claims.
Anyone with a kindergarten education has the ability to rebut evolution claims.

Matthew 18:3 Jesus says, “Assuredly, I say to you, unless you change and become as little children, you will by no means enter the kingdom of heaven.”
 
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joshua 1 9

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At the present time there exist upon the earth five races or varieties of man, each very different from the other in instincts, social customs, and, to an extent, structure.
No one has ever guessed what race my son is. How do we explain that? I walked up to a girl in church last Sunday and said you look Asian but you are to tall. She said that is because her father is from Egypt. People like to intermarry and they seldom fit into any sort of race stereotype. Look at the state of California or cities like Toronto. Good luck trying to untangle them to figure out what their race or culture is.
 
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PsychoSarah

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It isn't logical, no. Nor is it something sane people do. But you're saying that we know for a fact that they aren't correct based on low likelihood that they are.
That is not what I am suggesting in the slightest. What I am saying is that, if the evidence strongly supports a specific conclusion, and contradicts or simply does not support a different conclusion, then behaving as if that unsupported conclusion is LIKELY to be more accurate than the currently well-supported one is fallacious. To view it as possible, or even pursue finding evidence in support of it, is not really a problem (although, researching with particular outcomes desired can be a source of error, so one must take care to avoid that).
 
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PsychoSarah

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Anyone with a kindergarten education has the ability to rebut evolution claims.

Matthew 18:3 Jesus says, “Assuredly, I say to you, unless you change and become as little children, you will by no means enter the kingdom of heaven.”
That biblical quote has nothing to do with evolution. It's about spiritual innocence, and how only very young children aren't demanded to be held accountable for their actions and beliefs, as they are not of age to know better or make informed decisions. Thus, unless an adult made themselves like a child (which is not possible), they will be held accountable.
 
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joshua 1 9

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Then why does no one ever exercise that ability?
Everyone that is going to heaven needs to "exercise that ability". You can not enter into heaven if you do not become "as a child".
 
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sfs

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Everyone that is going to heaven needs to "exercise that ability".
The ability in question is the ability to rebut evolution claims. You've just stated that only people who have rebutted evolution claims go to heaven. That's a seriously odd bit of theology.
 
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joshua 1 9

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The ability in question is the ability to rebut evolution claims.
Claims is plural. People make lots of claims, but the objective is to offer some evidence or proof to substantiate those claims. A claim by definition means: "state or assert that something is the case, typically without providing evidence or proof."
 
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tas8831

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No! When we found similarities we interpreted them to mean common descent because we went in with the presupposed assumption of it (based on being convinced by earlier authorities that this is what the fossil record indicates).
It that REALLY what happens/happened? Just a pre-supposed assumption? Based on 'authorities'?

I detect a rather monumental act of projection.
The fact that organisms that appear similar anatomically and physiologically share similar genes in similar locations does not imply common descent just similarity.
And when more similar organisms share more unique mutation errors in noncoding DNA - what then? Just a coincidence?

Your rebuttals seem necessarily shallow and glib and frankly, rehearsed.

Yes we share the many in common (that express structurally and functionally) with apes and most with , that does not demonstrate lineage (progeny).

It certainly supports it, and there are additional sources of corroborating evidence that strengthens these findings. Biogeography, the temporal progression in the fossil record, etc. Right sorry - I forgot that the fossil record is all just "presupposition" premised on "assumptions" of "authorities."

Appeal to authority and argumentum ad populum does not make it so. (I know where this genetic approach will go so I will wait patiently).

I have to laugh - you are arguing against the impetus for your own position and you do not seem to recognize it.
 
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tas8831

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Amen cuz, this IS the history of science in a nutshell. !,000 years from now most we accept or believe as established and true will either be proven incorrect or obsolete!


Most of it?

Really?

So, let me guess - living things are not really made of cells?

Germs do not really cause disease?

The earth really is flat )even as all other celestial bodies are spherical)?

I think you forgetting that as amassed knowledge and technology improve and increase, the number of things that have shown to be obsolete or disproved has diminished.

I do wonder, though - do you apply that same standard to religious lore, or is this 'science is tentative, it will be overturned at some point' just a shield?
 
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tas8831

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In reading through the posts, I am guessing that none noted the flaw in the quote in the first post?


"The E-Coli experiments after 50,000 plus generations still remain E-Coli, Homo sapien Neanderthalis/Homo sapien Altai/and Homo sapien Sapiens are another great example (very fitting to Kimuru's Neutral Theory)..."
 
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tas8831

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In reading through the posts, I am guessing that none noted the flaw in the quote in the first post?


"The E-Coli experiments after 50,000 plus generations still remain E-Coli, Homo sapien Neanderthalis/Homo sapien Altai/and Homo sapien Sapiens are another great example (very fitting to Kimuru's Neutral Theory)..."

And thus remains the unwarranted confidence in one's supposed knowledge (And I am not even referring to the incorrect spelling).
 
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Astrophile

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Have you not been paying attention? The simplest alternative explanation example to share (and easiest to prove true or false) is the effect of speciation by natural selection and accumulated mutations.

You didn't answer my question; what are the 'alternative explanations that some have for the same evidence'?

I don't understand the difference between 'shared ancestry' and 'speciation by natural selection and accumulated mutations'. As I understood it, it is the combination of accumulated mutational change and natural selection that leads to the divergence of new species from a shared ancestral species.

Yes speciation is really happening, BUT it cannot be used to demonstrate the change of one organism into an entirely different type of organism (as it is taught to be), BECAUSE all the evidence we have (which is much) only demonstrates the production of variety within the same organism.

First, humans and apes aren't entirely different types of organisms, not like, for example, octopuses and brittle-stars, or snails and beetles, or mushrooms and ferns. Second, what do you regard as 'entirely different types of organism'? Are ostriches, emus and rheas entirely different types? Are eagles and hawks entirely different, or dodos and pigeons, or swans and ducks? What about cattle and pigs, or octopuses and squid, or thistles and stinging nettles? Third, you are telling me what evolution can't do rather than answering my question about the 'alternative explanations ... for the same evidence'.

Please address this and by all means show some EXAMPLES not just the default to failed genetic arguments such as ERVs and so on. If it is a fact (as it is taught to be) then this should be easy! I can certainly give examples which support my scientifically based interpretation (now do not go there, just defend YOUR position).

I was asking you the question: what are 'the alternative explanations that some have for the same evidence'? It is not good enough to reject the evidence for evolution as 'failed genetic arguments such as ERVs and so on'. You have to give detailed alternative explanations for the evidence and to show that they explain the observations better than the evolutionary explanation.
 
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mark kennedy

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A local creationist has admitted ignorance in most areas of science, yet claims that because of training in how to analyze arguments, he nevertheless has the ability to rebut evolution claims.

So as not to give away the ending, I am not going to link to this claim, but I am wondering how many creationists will be able to spot the flaw in this 'analytical' reasoning the creationist professes in this example:

"The E-Coli experiments after 50,000 plus generations still remain E-Coli, Homo sapien Neanderthalis/Homo sapien Altai/and Homo sapien Sapiens are another great example (very fitting to Kimuru's Neutral Theory)..."
I remember I spent weeks on the 'Rates of Spontaneous Mutations' paper, all I got from it was actually a few lines that were useful. Scientific literature is rarely an easy read, but that doesn't make it incomprehensible.
 
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joshua 1 9

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I thought you agreed with Francis Collins position, on the theory of evolution?
He does the best job of defending theistic evolution. There are lots of things that Collins is a long ways off from being able to figure out in terms of Science and the Bible. This is a learning experience for all of us. Substantial gaps in our current knowledge remain. We do the best we can with what we have to work with.
 
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