Creationist "arguments" - different karyotypes

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Speedwell

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Hi speedwell,

Thanks for your reply.


Yes, but something not 'being science' doesn't make the claim true or false.
Yes, that's the point. Biblical creationism makes an entirely different epistemological claim than science does. That which is "known" to creationists is not "known" to science, and vice-versa.
 
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pitabread

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Oh, ok. These are patents that they have applied for that cover a specific method that they have devised to test/examine/formulate various testing methods. I was thinking that you were inferring that these were going to be patents that were actually based on some finding of evolution itself.

They are. The patents are directly based on the concept of natural selection as described by the Theory of Evolution and first proposed by Darwin & Wallace 150+ years ago.

Yes, Evolutionary Genomics, Inc. is a company whose reason d'tre is to continue study of the theory of evolution in hopes of some day being able to find the link or determine some positive proof that would move evolution from theory to fact.

No. This is a completely misrepresentation of what they do. They are a genomics company that identifies functionally relevant and useful genes in organisms (currently they focus on agriculture) using their adaptive traits platform which was derived and patented based on the theory of evolution.

You have to understand, biotech companies aren't in the business of trying to "prove" evolution. They are in the business of using our current knowledge of biology (which includes evolution) to address real-world problems.

I have no problem with such work, although I don't believe there will ever be found any such evolutionary trail.

The "evolutionary trail" is exactly what they are using to identify specific functional and relevant genes in organisms (in this case looking at genes shaped by natural selection).
 
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pitabread

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But you offered several other alternatives for reconciling Genesis and evolution so thought I would mention this one as the oldest and most widely held, actually predating evolution as figurative interpretations of Genesis are almost as old as the book itself.

I have to wonder how many Biblical literalists actually know this (re: the history of non-literal interpretations of Genesis). In recent memory I've seen a lot of literalists that claim that a non-literal interpretation is a recent invention.

Do Biblical literalists not know the history of their own Bible?
 
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Speedwell

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I have to wonder how many Biblical literalists actually know this (re: the history of non-literal interpretations of Genesis). In recent memory I've seen a lot of literalists that claim that a non-literal interpretation is a recent invention.

Do Biblical literalists not know the history of their own Bible?
They are systematically misinformed about it.
 
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miamited

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Yes, that's the point. Biblical creationism makes an entirely different epistemological claim than science does. That which is "known" to creationists is not "known" to science, and vice-versa.

Hi speedwell,

Agreed!

God bless,
In Christ, ted
 
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miamited

Ted
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I have to wonder how many Biblical literalists actually know this (re: the history of non-literal interpretations of Genesis). In recent memory I've seen a lot of literalists that claim that a non-literal interpretation is a recent invention.

Do Biblical literalists not know the history of their own Bible?

Hi pitabread,

I'm pretty familiar with all of the various 'beliefs' concerning the Genesis account. As far as interpretations and understandings of all that the Scriptures tell us, the variations are myriad. When Jesus walked among God's own people he decried that they didn't know what God's word should have meant to them. At one point he told them that they seemed to know well how to tell the coming weather from the clues found in the sky, but didn't seem to have that same understanding of what his Father's words had told them.

At another point he railed against them that they not only didn't understand the things of God themselves, but in chasing after converts, they would then turn them into dogs of hell worse than themselves. He again told them that their efforts were making null and void the words of God. He told a particular Pharisee that he needed to understand about being born again and the Pharisee clearly hadn't a clue what Jesus was talking about when he said that he couldn't come back out of his mother's womb. As he was making his way into Israel, he literally shed tears over Israel's ignorance in not understanding the implication, and more importantly the very time in which all of these things were happening. It seems abundantly clear that as Jesus was going through the scourging and the cross, there were literally only a handful of people witnessing those events that had even the slightest clue as to what was going on.

So please understand, that mankind understanding what God's work was establishing, throughout the whole of the Scriptures, was little understood. The Scriptures, in their entirety, lay out a perfect and continuous plan of God working among the creatures that He created, to accomplish a completed goal. The goal is found in Revelation 21:3 And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, “Behold, the dwelling place of God is with man. He will dwell with them, and they will be his people, and God himself will be with them as their God."

That's the goal of the entirety of the Scriptures. God began by calling a man by the name of Abram of Ur. Through the progeny of that single man, God built up an entire nation of people to do His bidding upon the earth. His bidding was that they complete the Scriptures and usher in the Messiah (see Daniel 9:24-27). That's exactly what they did, despite their hardened hearts. Most of them didn't have a clue what they were doing in playing these parts, but the sovereignty of God over the will of man was victorious in completing that first part of God's great plan of redemption that He full well intended at the moment that He said, "Let there be light!"

It was this plan that enabled the redemption of man that Jesus proclaimed from the cross when he looked up to heaven and said to his Father, "It is finished!" Everything had been done to allow that God could now reap a harvest from the earth as He does in Revelation 14:14-20. Those who set their faith in God's plan of redemption and understood that it's all about following in the footsteps and spirit of Jesus will be given eternal life with God. Those who still refused God's sovereignty in their lives would be cast off.

So, for me, this idea that the earth and the stars in the heavens require some billions of years to come about by some natural coalescing of some kind of spatial matter, sounds fairly ludicrous. We live in a realm of perfection that was created near immediately (over 6 rotations of the earth) to be a place for man to live, who is then given the opportunity by God's mercy and grace to come back into a relationship with Him or choose to go it alone for eternity. According to Jesus, the 'go it alone' group will suffer for all eternity while the one's in relationship with God will enjoy a peaceful and satisfying existence for all eternity.

But this plan is what the Scriptures are all about. It begins with God creating this realm and then closing it all up and judging all mankind and then establishing each one's eternal existence.

Now, because God does know the end from the beginning, He has always known that man's heart is prone to wander and so we have a plethora of various and differing religions and spiritual beliefs. God's word, however, is the only such writing that depends greatly on fulfilled prophecy. God has proven, at least to me, that it is the Scriptures that declare the truth, because in them God has caused to be written many, many prophecies, most of which have been fulfilled, that we should know that only a God who knows the end from the beginning would be able to write such an account. Daniel chapter 9 is one of the greatest examples of such.

God bless,
In Christ, ted
 
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FrumiousBandersnatch

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... what testable predictions have been made regarding the theropod to bird evolution?
I gave some in my post. All the gory details are out there if you can use Google search. My intent was to give you some idea of how multiple lines of evidece and fruitful predictions that are made from that evidence can result in confidence beyond a reasonable doubt in a hypothesis

... As I've written in another post, why don't we find some intermediate evidence. A fully formed theropod, then a nearly fully formed theropod with some slight difference. Then the new theropod with another slight difference and another and another until we see, just like the scientific reproductions try to show us in animated character how the fully formed theropod morphed into the bird.

For me, with all of the bazillion fossil and skeletal remains that we have, surely there must have been found at least a dozen of these intermediary forms.
We don't have a 'bazillion' fossils; for example, we have a perhaps a thousand specimens (many of them fragmentary) of around 120 species of birds in the Mesozoic (probably quite a few more since that was published).

But it's the overall patterns of similarities through geological history that make a compelling case - that and having a mechanism that predicts such patterns, and the overwhelming evidence from more recent times for which we have genetic material - for example, viral infections can result in pieces of viral DNA (ERVs) occasionally being inserted into DNA that is passed down to offspring. These random insertions accumulate in the genome over hundreds of thousands of years into a historical record.

By comparing which ERVs are shared by different species (i.e. the particular sequence and its position in the genome), we can determine the order in which each species split from their common ancestor, and (roughly) how long ago. This is how we can tell that chimps are the primates most closely related to modern humans despite orangutans or gorillas looking superficially the more likely candidates. We share more ERVs with chimps than with them, and more with gorillas than with orangutans.
 
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miamited

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Hi FB,

By comparing which ERVs are shared by different species (i.e. the particular sequence and its position in the genome), we can determine the order in which each species split from their common ancestor, and (roughly) how long ago.

So, exactly what is the 'hint' that tells us that the first chimp that God created on day 6 didn't have DNA that looked exactly like it does today and that Adam, also created on day six didn't have exactly the same DNA that he has today?

I mean, I understand that we share a lot of DNA data with the chimpanzee. I understand that as we look down a strand of DNA we can see where there are differences. What I don't understand is how we have categorically determined that these differences 'branched' off somewhere in the past and can't be just the way God created them to be. That's the part of your explanation that I've never understood. When you say that we can 'determine the order in which each species split from their common ancestor, and roughly how long ago', you seem to be making the claim that we know that it's impossible that these differences and these 'appearances' that they might have branched off could not have been in the initial DNA strand of whatever creatures are being looked at.

God bless,
In Christ, ted
 
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Speedwell

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Hi FB,



So, exactly what is the 'hint' that tells us that the first chimp that God created on day 6 didn't have DNA that looked exactly like it does today and that Adam, also created on day six didn't have exactly the same DNA that he has today?

I mean, I understand that we share a lot of DNA data with the chimpanzee. I understand that as we look down a strand of DNA we can see where there are differences. What I don't understand is how we have categorically determined that these differences 'branched' off somewhere in the past and can't be just the way God created them to be. That's the part of your explanation that I've never understood. When you say that we can 'determine the order in which each species split from their common ancestor, and roughly how long ago', you seem to be making the claim that we know that it's impossible that these differences and these 'appearances' that they might have branched off could not have been in the initial DNA strand of whatever creatures are being looked at.

God bless,
In Christ, ted
Along with evidence of periodic viral infection? What would be the purpose of that?
 
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FrumiousBandersnatch

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So, exactly what is the 'hint' that tells us that the first chimp that God created on day 6 didn't have DNA that looked exactly like it does today and that Adam, also created on day six didn't have exactly the same DNA that he has today?

I mean, I understand that we share a lot of DNA data with the chimpanzee. I understand that as we look down a strand of DNA we can see where there are differences. What I don't understand is how we have categorically determined that these differences 'branched' off somewhere in the past and can't be just the way God created them to be. That's the part of your explanation that I've never understood. When you say that we can 'determine the order in which each species split from their common ancestor, and roughly how long ago', you seem to be making the claim that we know that it's impossible that these differences and these 'appearances' that they might have branched off could not have been in the initial DNA strand of whatever creatures are being looked at.
I may not have explained it clearly, but it seems clear that, given that we know how genomes are inherited, there is only one scientific explanation for us sharing identical random ERVs with chimps, gorillas, and orangutans, and that is that we must have all inherited them from a common ancestor.

If you believe in an all-powerful supernatural entity, you could obviously claim that our genomes were deliberately created or modified in order to give the appearance of those exact evolutionary relationships (and likewise for all the other indications of close evolutionary relationship). But it must be obvious to you that this raises some very strange questions.

An explanation that has been given in these forums is that God was 'being efficient' by 'reusing' genomes... but this simply makes the result of creation exactly equivalent to evolution - under this interpretation we are still as closely genetically related as under evolution, only the mechanism is different.

This kind of precise evolutionary evidence applies, not just to human evolution, but for all creatures whose genomes have been examined for ERVs, and ERVs are just one of the multiple independent strands of evidence corroborating these relationships.

Given the choice between the two competing hypotheses; one, that the precise appearance of all these evolutionary relationships actually is the result of evolution, and two, that the precise appearance of all these evolutionary relationships was deliberately created for no known reason by an all-powerful entity, any reasonable argument-to-the-best-explanation would pick the first; in fact, Occam's Razor alone is sufficient.
 
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coffee4u

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But we don't see more birth defects and illnesses over time, and we do see new life forms (species), and we see new adaptive traits in them (we haven't been around long enough to see new body parts evolve).

Your expectations are contradicted by the living world.

OK, so you'll accept the scientific evidence if it fits your preconceptions but not otherwise. It's fallacious reasoning, but I expect you knew that.

Really, because when I look at the living world I see my expectations fulfilled. I see cats breeding cats and dogs breeding dogs. I see a lot of conditions and illness caused by disease and mutation.
Show me one of these newly evolved creatures. Not talking species here but something new. We fully believe in species coming from the kinds diverging and losing DNA. We are not talking about working parts changing shape either, but a creature with no working part, no DNA to create such a part, gaining a brand new a working part with DNA for it that it can pass on to its offspring. You mentioned beaks earlier, how did an animal with a mouth gain a beak?

We constantly see new diseases and mutations. How much more common is Autism? allergies, ADHD? The first case of AIDS was in 1979.
A quick google pulled these up. https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2018/10/181018095358.htmese
Mutations Fathers pass on four times as many new genetic mutations as mothers – study
The more people have recessive genes for certain conditions the more it will spread, like cystic fibrosis or Sickle Cell Anaemia.
The average classroom today has far more children diagnosed with learning disorders or some disorder compared to the classroom in the 1970s. Knowing someone on the spectrum was uncommon back then, today who doesn't know at least one or two people on the spectrum? My son is on the spectrum, his two cousins are on the spectrum, two of my daughter's friends are on the spectrum. Her boyfriend has asthma, also way more common.
 
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pitabread

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Not talking species here but something new.

What is "something new"? It might come as a surprise, but organisms are bound by their ancestry. One organism isn't going to give birth to something completely different. That is the opposite of how biological evolution works.

Knowing someone on the spectrum was uncommon back then, today who doesn't know at least one or two people on the spectrum?

A more frequent diagnosis of a condition doesn't necessarily mean that the conditions didn't previously exist. Often times when certain conditions get defined and described in medicine they might appear to become more frequent but only because they are more easily recognized.
 
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coffee4u

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I may not have explained it clearly, but it seems clear that, given that we know how genomes are inherited, there is only one scientific explanation for us sharing identical random ERVs with chimps, gorillas, and orangutans, and that is that we must have all inherited them from a common ancestor.

You choose to see that as common ancestry because you don't believe God exists. if God doesn't exist you don't have any other viable alternative. It isn't proof of anything, it just is. It's how a person views that same evidence that counts. A doppelganger may look like a twin and still have no family ties.

If you believe in an all-powerful supernatural entity, you could obviously claim that our genomes were deliberately created or modified in order to give the appearance of those exact evolutionary relationships (and likewise for all the other indications of close evolutionary relationship). But it must be obvious to you that this raises some very strange questions.

Again you assume it has the appearance of evolution because this is your world view. It doesn't have the appearance of evolution to us but the appearance of the same creator.
If you were to go and buy a Picasso you would have some expectation of how it would look even before you saw it. You would not expect a painting by Picasso to look like a painting by Monet. They each had a very individual style.

An explanation that has been given in these forums is that God was 'being efficient' by 'reusing' genomes... but this simply makes the result of creation exactly equivalent to evolution - under this interpretation we are still as closely genetically related as under evolution, only the mechanism is different.

We are only told a few basic principles in the Bible anything outside of that is theory and speculation.

So perhaps God was being efficient or maybe he had no need to deviate or maybe he wanted it to look the same, we don't know, we aren't told this. We can't exactly sit him down and ask his thoughts on it now.

We can't explain faith to you if you have none. You either have faith or you don't.
 
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Speedwell

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You mentioned beaks earlier, how did an animal with a mouth gain a beak?
Beaks are bony projections from the upper and lower jaw and covered with Keratin, the same material as hair, skin, fingernails and feathers are made of. Nothing new there, just different arrangements of existing structures and materials'
 
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Speedwell

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So perhaps God was being efficient or maybe he had no need to deviate or maybe he wanted it to look the same, we don't know, we aren't told this. We can't exactly sit him down and ask his thoughts on it now.
Or maybe He created a process called evolution to produce the diversity of life we see.
 
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coffee4u

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Beaks are bony projections from the upper and lower jaw and covered with Keratin, the same material as hair, skin, fingernails and feathers are made of. Nothing new there, just different arrangements of existing structures and materials'

It doesn't matter that it's 'just a rearrangement' no child is going to be born with a working beak.
 
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FrumiousBandersnatch

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I see cats breeding cats and dogs breeding dogs.
Exactly as evolution requires.

I see a lot of conditions and illness caused by disease and mutation.
Plus ca change. 'Twas ever thus. But, as I said, "we don't see more birth defects and illnesses over time".

Show me one of these newly evolved creatures. Not talking species here but something new.
Given what I said in the post you're commenting to, what would you consider 'new' in this context, if not a new species?

We fully believe in species coming from the kinds diverging and losing DNA.
That's not what the evidence shows. Gene duplications are not uncommon and some species have evolved with multiples of the whole DNA of their parent species; it's called polyploidy. Such developments provide ample genetic material for mutations to modify and generate new protein variants.

We are not talking about working parts changing shape either, but a creature with no working part, no DNA to create such a part, gaining a brand new a working part with DNA for it that it can pass on to its offspring.
That's not how evolution works; it modifies existing structures. In earlier times, it was not uncommon for species to duplicate whole body segments, but the advantages of that have been pretty thoroughly explored, e.g. arthropods (centipedes, etc).

You mentioned beaks earlier, how did an animal with a mouth gain a beak?
By modification of the development of what had been a snout. More precisely, by modification of two of the chemical signalling pathways that determined embryonic development of the snout.

We constantly see new diseases and mutations. How much more common is Autism? allergies, ADHD? The first case of AIDS was in 1979.
Humans are a significantly atypical species; I recommend that you drop the anthropocentrism and consider life in general. However, with autism, informed opinion has it that what has increased is not the incidence, but the recognition and diagnosis. The increase in human allergies is probably due to lifestyle changes and/or novel pollutants - other animals are not, in general, suffering more allergies. AIDS is just the latest of a long history of such diseases crossing species boundaries.

When they say a 'new' disease, they mean new to science, i.e. one they didn't know about before. Mutated gene variants arise at random in populations. If they're significantly disadvantageous, they don't generally spread across the population.

Yup, looks like rare genetic diseases are more likely to be the father's 'fault'. So what?

Notice that both these articles are explicitly about rare diseases. Why are they rare? because, contrary to your claim, we don't see more birth defects and illnesses over time. If that was significantly true, no species would have survived to the present. We co-evolved with disease organisms; many live peacefully on and in us, until we do something to disturb them - you might find Ed Yong's book on the microbiome, 'I contain Multitudes', informative.

The more people have recessive genes for certain conditions the more it will spread, like cystic fibrosis or Sickle Cell Anaemia.
Sure, and these diseases have been around as long as mankind... but look around you - does everyone now have CF or SCA? No, because such disadvantageous genes reach an equilibrium in the population. If you learn some genetics, you can discover how this happens and calculate the expected incidences.

The average classroom today has far more children diagnosed with learning disorders or some disorder compared to the classroom in the 1970s. Knowing someone on the spectrum was uncommon back then, today who doesn't know at least one or two people on the spectrum? My son is on the spectrum, his two cousins are on the spectrum, two of my daughter's friends are on the spectrum. Her boyfriend has asthma, also way more common.
As before, don't confuse greater diagnosis with greater incidence.
 
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FrumiousBandersnatch

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You choose to see that as common ancestry because you don't believe God exists. if God doesn't exist you don't have any other viable alternative. It isn't proof of anything, it just is. It's how a person views that same evidence that counts. A doppelganger may look like a twin and still have no family ties.
Plenty of people who believe in God see it as common ancestry.

Again you assume it has the appearance of evolution because this is your world view. It doesn't have the appearance of evolution to us but the appearance of the same creator.
To a man with a hammer, everything looks like a nail.

So perhaps God was being efficient or maybe he had no need to deviate or maybe he wanted it to look the same, we don't know, we aren't told this. We can't exactly sit him down and ask his thoughts on it now.
You don't know, yet you insist that exactly what evolution predicts was not evolution at all but a miraculous creation because, er, 'God Works In Mysterious Ways'...

We can't explain faith to you if you have none. You either have faith or you don't.
True, but it's clearly not a rational argument. If I believed in God, I would follow the evidence of the natural world he created.
 
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Speedwell

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It doesn't matter that it's 'just a rearrangement' no child is going to be born with a working beak.
No, but such an event would cause great difficulties for the theory of evolution, which predicts that it couldn't happen.
 
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