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Oh, I agree. . .it's not a problem. I was just speaking from the prospective of the questioners.TedT said: ↑
ImCo:
How is it possible that those who know the love of GOD, that GOD IS LOVE, can believe HE knew for all eternity past who would be damned YET CREATED THEM ANYWAY?
It's not a problem. It's a matter of perspective. For whom did God create the human race? That solves the problem.
When you think about it, that's no different than God determining (ordaining, decreeing, effecting; i.e., predestining) before he created them what their eternal destiny would be, as he did with Jacob and Esau.When God brings one into this life, He knows if He is "making him for destruction" or "fitting to destruction" (Rom 9:22) because He knows what one is going to choose. It is "to shew His wrath, and to make His power known," as this passage states.
I thought we were the same on that issue, thanks!Neither do I. The belief that God chooses who will believe is the bedrock theology of the Calvinist doctrine of election, when election isn't even about salvation.
Yes, I know.Oh, I agree. . .it's not a problem. I was just speaking from the prospective of the questioners.
I thought we were he same on that issue, thanks!
I agree...No, that is the issue. Who does God choose to save? Believers is who.
When God brings one into this life, He knows if He is "making him for destruction" or "fitting to destruction" (Rom 9:22) because He knows what one is going to choose. It is "to shew His wrath, and to make His power known," as this passage states.
If HE did this to Jacob and Esau with no free will input from them then HE also did it to Satan and the demons with no free will input from them...or are the demons the only ones who fell by their free will and all others are created evil after being put into the inherited sin with no free will category?When you think about it, that's no different than God determining (ordaining, decreeing, effecting; i.e., predestining) before he created them what their eternal destiny would be, as he did with Jacob and Esau.
Not just Jacob and Esau. . .I had no "free-will input" about being born, about being male or female, about who were my parents, about where I was born, about the color of my eyes, hair and skin, about my IQ, etc., etc., etc.If HE did this to Jacob and Esau with no free will input from them then HE also did it to Satan and the demons with no free will input from them...or are the demons the only ones who fell by their free will
How much free will did you have regarding your origin?and all others are created evil after being put into the inherited sin with no free will category?
I agree...
Eph 1:4 has been badly misunderstood by Calvinists. It says nothing about salvation. In fact, none of the Greek words that are translated "elect/election" are about salvation. Every example of those described as the elect are about service.but I wonder, since we were chosen before the foundation of the world, did we exist and believe then or was it some future thing we did that gave HIM reason to choose us?
Not the issue.Not just Jacob and Esau. . .I had no "free-will input" about being born, about being male or female, about who were my parents, about where I was born, about the color of my eyes, hair and skin, about my IQ, etc., etc., etc.
What's with this "free-will input" regarding one's origin.
How much free will did you have regarding your origin?
Not just Jacob and Esau. . .I had no "free-will input" about being born, about being male or female, about who were my parents, about where I was born, about the color of my eyes, hair and skin, about my IQ, etc., etc., etc.
What's with this "free-will input" regarding one's origin.
Man has limited free will, limited by his fallen nature, not the free will of Adam, but he enjoys limited free will.Not the issue.
When the Bible says that man has no excuse because God has revealed Himself through creation (Romans 1:19-21), that proves free will.
Free will is not the issue. All mankind is born condemned by the sin of Adam (Romans 5:18).Premise 1: All free will decisions must be sacrosanct or they are not free in fact, only in feeling.
Not in the NT. See Romans 5:18.Premise 2: Sin can only accrue to a person choosing by a free will decision to reject GOD or to rebel against HIS commands...
no one is seen as sinful if innocent of such a choice.
That's philosophy, not the NT.Premise 3: Being conceived / born as a sinner or sinful in any way or propensity cannot be our creation as it makes us sinners without any free will decision to sin, no mens rea and without guilty intent there can be no crime.
You were born a sinner by the natural process of reproduction, not by creation. Only Adam and Eve were created. And you inherited the nature of your predecessor--fallen.If GOD created me a sinner without my free will choice to sin then I am a sinner by HIS will and my sins accrue to HIM, which cannot be true and is frankly abhorrent.
However, that is precisely what the NT teaches, see Romans 9:22.Premise 4: Our election to salvation cannot be unconditional or the non-election of the reprobate is also unconditional: anathema!
It is my suggestion we were elected before the foundation of the world due to our faith in HIM as our GOD and in the Son as the only saviour for sin and the reprobate were passed over for election for sinning the unforgivable sin of rejecting HIS claims to be our GOD as the lies of a false god. And yes, this is just what it sounds like, a belief that we were there pre-election, before the foundation of the world.
Only those who sinned were flung (sown, planted), to the earth, reprobate and elect alike as per Matt 13:36-39, though the elect were never condemned and the unbelievers are already condemned: Jn 3:18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God's one and only Son. ie, infants are saved if they are believers, and not saved if condemned already.
A sinner is enslaved to the addiction of sin so when GOD manipulates the lives of sinners, (ie everyone who has been or will be conceived or born on earth, Jacob, Essau Jeremiah, everyone), GOD is NOT going against our free will but only against our sinful will which, due to our choice to sin, set us at enmity to HIM. We chose our FATES pre-election and GOD chose, predetermined, our LIVES as sinners, lives which conform to our previously chosen free will decisions (for both the reprobate and sinful elect), for one purpose, the sanctification of the sinful elect to end the postponement of the judgement.
Being careless about our free will in both election and in salvation by grace, need not be countenanced.
To be clear, free will is simply opportunity to choose. Calvinsts love to make it into some kind of object or something, that does things.
Has anyone ever seen an opportunity do something? No, of course not. It's a human who does things because of the opportunity.
For me free will means options available to choose from. So there is no difference between Adam's free will and the rest of mankind.Man has limited free will, limited by his fallen nature, not the free will of Adam, but he enjoys limited free will.
I don't see why this would be an issue. God has revealed Himself to everyone through creation so that man has no excuse for not recognizing Him as Creator God and being thankful to Him. Romans 1:19-21.Free will is not the issue. All mankind is born condemned by the sin of Adam
I disagree. Titus 2:11 definitely shows free will.(Romans 5:18).
Free will is the issue only in philosophy, it is not the issue in the NT.
Titus 2:11 creates a choice for "all people". That's free will in action.We are born sinners, condemned by Adam's sin (Romans 5:18, Ephesians 2:3).
Correct. And believing is a choice. The Bible plainly says that men "refused to believe". Acts 14:2 and 19:9. And men "refused to repent". Rev 16:9,11Only faith and trust in the person and work of Jesus Christ for the remission of our sin and right standing with God's justice (not guilty) redeems us from this condemnation (John 3:18; Romans 3:25).
Where does the Bible say that God doesn't enable anyone to believe in His Son.The reprobate are those whom God does not enable to believe in his Son, for his own purposes.
I see this as going to God's foreknowlege, as distinct from his omniscience. . .and his foreknowlege as of his own work,
rather than his foreknowedge as of man's work.
I gather this from Acts 15:18 - "Known to the Lord for ages is his work," as well as
Isaiah 43:8:
"I foretold (predestined) the former things long ago,
my mouth announced (decreed) them, and I made them known;
then suddenly I acted (his work), and they came to pass (accomplished them)."
Also Acts 2:23, 4:28; Isaiah 37:26.
So my view is that man's choice to believe is the result of God's own predestination to work belief in those he has predestined to do so.
I think this is supported in
John 6:65 - "No one can come to me unless the Father has enabled him."
John 6:37 - "All that the Father gives me will come to me."
John 6:39 - "I shall lose none of all that he has given me."
When the Bible says that man has no excuse because God has revealed Himself through creation (Romans 1:19-21), that proves free will.
Unable to accept. Water is wet, never dry, by the definition of things. A will is free or not free, ie limited, not both.Man has limited free will, limited by his fallen nature, not the free will of Adam, but he enjoys limited free will.
This doctrine claims it was GOD who set the natural process of reproduction to be our creation and to have us to be sinners by this method. The hoops people jump thru to keep this foolish doctrine yet deny GOD creates sinners with it is amazing... Without a free will decision to reject HIM or to rebel against HIS command there can be no sin!You were born a sinner by the natural process of reproduction, not by creation. Only Adam and Eve were created. And you inherited the nature of your predecessor--fallen.
Jesus teaches otherwise (John 8:34). Slaves aren't free.For me free will means options available to choose from. So there is no difference between Adam's free will and the rest of mankind.
Recognition and thanksgiving won't redeem you from the condemnation in which you are born (Romans 5:18; Ephesians 2:3).I don't see why this would be an issue. God has revealed Himself to everyone through creation so that man has no excuse for not recognizing Him as Creator God and being thankful to Him. Romans 1:19-21
So, because God has revealed Himself, everyone has the opportunity to recognize Creator God and being thankful to Him.
Free will is not the issue. No one is acting contrary to his will, either the redeemed or the damned.But many choose not to be interested in Him. choice.
Agreed, he had the same free will as everyone has, to choose according to his preference.Cornelius is an example of an unsaved person (Acts 11:14) who did recognize God as Creator and was thankful to Him, as evidenced by His prayers and alms to the poor.
Free will is not denied, man freely chooses not to believe.I disagree. Titus 2:11 definitely .
"For the grace of God has appeared that offers salvation to all people."
When an offer is made, a choice is created. to accept or not.
Titus 2:11 creates a choice for "all people". That's free will in action.
Correct. And believing is a choice. The Bible plainly says that men "refused to believe". Acts 14:2 and 19:9. And men "refused to repent". Rev 16:9,11
Where does the Bible say that God doesn't enable anyone to believe in His Son.
It has "appeared," does not mean "effective" for everyone.Again, Titus 2:11 is for everyone, not certain ones.
Didn't you read Titus 2:11? God's grace offers salvation to all people. How is that not an opportunity to receive it?It proves we had a free will when HE created the physical universe but now, as sinners? Nope, are not sinners enslaved to sin...
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