Omniscience causal

[Natro]

No the foreknowledge is not of an illusion but of a real choice. The choices are not illusion but real. Why would you think foreknowledge changes an actual choice into an illusion of a choice?

No with the foreknowledge everything just boils down to a line of events that just play out (like dominos set up to fall one after another). Would you consider a train set on a rail free to move in any direction? When everything is set there are no free choices only the actions set out... Choices need possibilities to be choices.(notice the "S" at the end of possibilites its the important part)

 

[elman]

No with the foreknowledge everything just boils down to a line of events that just play out (like dominos set up to fall one after another). Would you consider a train set on a rail free to move in any direction? When everything is set there are no free choices only the actions set out... Choices need possibilities to be choices.(notice the "S" at the end of possibilites its the important part)

You have yet to explain why when I have multiple choices and I chose one over the others, that choice has become an illusion if someone knew what I was going to chose but if no one knew what I was going to chose, then my choice becomes real and not an illusion. What is the reasonable connection between someone else's knowledge and my being unable to chose between multiple options? With predeterminism everything just boils down to a line of events that play out like dominose set up to fall one after another. With foreknowledge evrything simply plays out as the characters chose since God did not set the dominoes where they are in our scenerio but the dominoes themselves chose to be where they are set.

 

[elman]

this argument is pointless. elman refuses to acknowledge the basic logic of the position.

if god knows what will happen, then the outcome of the event is already determined. plain and simple. any choice is only an illusion

You keep misunderstanding that determinism is different from foreknowledge. The question is did God determine what would happen? If so then no choice. If not then there is choice. His knowing what you are going to chose does not determine what you chose. If so please explain why it is so. You are the one failing to acknowledge the basic logic of my position.

 

[Natro]

You have yet to explain why when I have multiple choices and I chose one over the others, that choice has become an illusion if someone knew what I was going to chose but if no one knew what I was going to chose, then my choice becomes real and not an illusion. What is the reasonable connection between someone else's knowledge and my being unable to chose between multiple options? With predeterminism everything just boils down to a line of events that play out like dominose set up to fall one after another. With foreknowledge evrything simply plays out as the characters chose since God did not set the dominoes where they are in our scenerio but the dominoes themselves chose to be where they are set.

It does not become a illusion because someone knows... It proves it is a illusion if someone knows. If there is chance in your dission then it is a choice if there is no chance in your dission then it is not a choice.

 

[elman]

It does not become a illusion because someone knows... It proves it is a illusion if someone knows. If there is chance in your dission then it is a choice if there is no chance in your dission then it is not a choice.

So you are saying that our choices are illusions either way but we don't have any proof it is illusion unless we can see that someone knew ahead of time. That does not make sense to me. Foreknowledge does not mean my options are taken away from me and I am forced to chose just one thing. Foreknowledge is simply knowing what I am going to chose out of many options. You state it is an illusion if it is foreknown but you don't say why that is true.

 

[ImmortalTechnique]

You keep misunderstanding that determinism is different from foreknowledge. The question is did God determine what would happen? If so then no choice. If not then there is choice. His knowing what you are going to chose does not determine what you chose. If so please explain why it is so. You are the one failing to acknowledge the basic logic of my position.

there is no logic in your position. although it is impossible that god didn't determine the even (since he created the universe knowing how it would turn out and could have created it otherwise) it doesn't really matter if god determined the action or not.


the fact that it is known before it is done, means that there was no choice. ther is only one possible outcome- the one that is known.

 

[elman]

there is no logic in your position. although it is impossible that god didn't determine the even (since he created the universe knowing how it would turn out and could have created it otherwise) it doesn't really matter if god determined the action or not.


the fact that it is known before it is done, means that there was no choice. ther is only one possible outcome- the one that is known.

There is no logic in your statment. Why does the fact that something is known before it is done mean there was no choice? Why is there being only one possible outcome prove no choice if the one possible outcome is one that was chosen from and out of many different options? You never attempt to explain. You just state and leave it as obvious. It is not obvious and not logical. You are saying it is impossible for an all powerful God to create beings with the ability to chose to love or not love and at the same time know what they are going to chose. How can you decide that is impossible? Under what logic?

 

[ImmortalTechnique]

you are simply ignoring a simple fact.

if the outcome is known before, it is determined. that is a fact. everything else is just an attempted justification of two incompatible views- omniscience and free will.

 

[elman]

you are simply ignoring a simple fact.

if the outcome is known before, it is determined. that is a fact. everything else is just an attempted justification of two incompatible views- omniscience and free will.

Here is a new thought for you to consider. One that has not previously occured to you. "If the outcome is know before, it is determined" is not a fact. Your statement that it is a fact does not make it one. Also your statement that omniscience and free will are incompatible views doe not make that true. You offer no reason of logic to support your statments. I assume that is because you are unable to do so.

 

[ImmortalTechnique]

no, it is a fact, you don't even understand the definitions of the words. no logical deduction is really neccessary. if the outcome is positively known beforehand, then the outcome is determined. by definition. if the outcome is determined, then there are no options. if there are no options, there is no choice.

 

[Natro]

So you are saying that our choices are illusions either way but we don't have any proof it is illusion unless we can see that someone knew ahead of time. That does not make sense to me. Foreknowledge does not mean my options are taken away from me and I am forced to chose just one thing. Foreknowledge is simply knowing what I am going to chose out of many options. You state it is an illusion if it is foreknown but you don't say why that is true.

Ok with all the evidence for freewill it can be proven false by one thing proof things are determined.... I think freewill exist because information is lost and quantum says you can't Know anything for sure mearly deduct probibilities... These are basicly the only reason I believe in freewill. Now what you say is that there is a God that Knows all 100% which proves there is no freewill.

 

[Danhalen]

You have given no logical or reasonable reason to believe it to be impossible. Do you care to logically and reasonably show why simply foreknowing what someone is going to chose to do results in the party chosing not chosing?

If God is necessary for existence then God exists in all possible worlds (existences).

If free will exists it is possible for there to be more than one possible world (based on the results of choices).

If God is omniscient then God knows all choices which will ever be made.

Therefore, it is not possible to choose that which God does not know.

If it is not possible to choose that which God does not know there can only be one possible world (the world in which God knows what will happen).

If it is not possible for more than one world to exist then it is not possible for choices to be made.

Therefore it is not possible for free will to exist in a world in which God is omniscient and necessary.

 

[elman]

If God is necessary for existence then God exists in all possible worlds (existences).

If free will exists it is possible for there to be more than one possible world (based on the results of choices).

If God is omniscient then God knows all choices which will ever be made.

Therefore, it is not possible to choose that which God does not know.

If it is not possible to choose that which God does not know there can only be one possible world (the world in which God knows what will happen).

If it is not possible for more than one world to exist then it is not possible for choices to be made.

Therefore it is not possible for free will to exist in a world in which God is omniscient and necessary.

The world that results from our choice does not exist until the choice is made. God knows what choice we are going to make but that world does not have to exist before the choice for God to know that. Where your logic falls is that one world can exist in which beings have choices that can change their world when the choices are made. Therefore it is possible for free will to exist in a world in which God is omniscient and necessary.

 

[elman]

Ok with all the evidence for freewill it can be proven false by one thing proof things are determined.... I think freewill exist because information is lost and quantum says you can't Know anything for sure mearly deduct probibilities... These are basicly the only reason I believe in freewill. Now what you say is that there is a God that Knows all 100% which proves there is no freewill.

But there is no logical reason to believe that God knowing 100% proves no free will.

 

[elman]

no, it is a fact, you don't even understand the definitions of the words. no logical deduction is really neccessary. if the outcome is positively known beforehand, then the outcome is determined. by definition. if the outcome is determined, then there are no options. if there are no options, there is no choice.

What if the outcome that is determined is the one you chose? And what if at the time you chose, you changed your mind and chose a different outcome which turned out to be the one determined all along? The question on free will is not was my choice determined, but did I determine my choice? If I did then someone knowing what I was going to chose is not what determined my choice, but me and then I had a choice.

 

[ImmortalTechnique]

no, it doesn't matter who determined it. the simple fact is that if the outcome can be known before it occurs, then the outcome is determined. there is no other possible outcome, and the choice is just an illusion

 

[quatona]

What if the outcome that is determined is the one you chose?

Then it cannot be foreknown.

And what if at the time you chose, you changed your mind and chose a different outcome which turned out to be the one determined all along?

Then I took the only possible action: the one that was foreknown. There was no other option for the resulting action (unless the foreknowing entity is fallible).
My previous considerations have been foreknown as well, hence must have be determined to be the preceeding, but not exerted considerations.

The question on free will is not was my choice determined, but did I determine my choice?

Yes, and the fact that your action has been foreknown poves you unable to determine it or make a "choice".

If I did then someone knowing what I was going to chose is not what determined my choice, but me and then I had a choice.

False dichotomy. It can have been something else. The argument is not that the foreknowing being must have been the one that determined your action, but merely that foreknowledge indicates that your action has been determined before you exerted it.
Of course, if you believe an OmnipotentCreatorGod to be the foreknowing entity, there is not much space left for something else to be the determinating factor. But this problem of "either me or God" is induced by the additional properties that you claim for the foreknower, and not relevant for the general question whether foreknowledge indicates that the acting object doesn´t have a choice.

 

[:æ:]

False dichotomy. It can have been something else. The argument is not that the foreknowing being must have been the one that determined your action, but merely that foreknowledge indicates that your action has been determined before you exerted it.
Of course, if you believe an OmnipotentCreatorGod to be the foreknowing entity, there is not much space left for something else to be the determinating factor. But this problem of "either me or God" is induced by the additional properties that you claim for the foreknower, and not relevant for the general question whether foreknowledge indicates that the acting object doesn´t have a choice.

Such a subtle, elusive, and yet vital point.

 

[Natro]

But there is no logical reason to believe that God knowing 100% proves no free will.

Yes there is... because if god knows 100% of what will happen then it is all determind therefor no freewill.

 

[Lilly of the Valley]

Yes there is... because if god knows 100% of what will happen then it is all determind therefor no freewill.

So you are saying God determines what we will do? That God wants us to do the things we choose? God knowing it doesn't mean He is controling it or even wants it. If someone does something that you don't want and they have the option of doing that, then that is free will/choice.