Omniscience causal

[Stormy]

I'll be back for more at a later time. I have got to get to bed. I have a test in my philosophy class at 9:00.

It doesn't mattter if you go to bed or not. Your grade is already out there somewhere anyway. lol

Que Sera, Sera

 

[Natro]

Regarding " Foreknown ≠ foredone."



Just because it is known that someone will do something, doesn't mean that it has already been done outside of that individual's own will.

But it does mean that it had been determined that the person will do.

 

[quatona]

Reality check. It makes no logical or practical difference at all whether he is omniscient or not. What are you going to do, refuse to serve an otherwise worthy God because he did not live up to some arbitrary standard, either yours or mine?

If I didn´t miss anything in the OP, it was merely discussing the compatibility of omniscience and "free will".
I haven´t read anything about worthiness of Gods or standards that anyone applied, nor about it being a reason to refuse Gods.

The incompatibility of "free will" and omniscience would be reason to refuse a god concept that pictures an omniscient God who gave us free will. This is just a logical argument without any moral implications and without further conclusions.

 

[Danhalen]

Regarding " Foreknown ≠ foredone."
Just because it is known that someone will do something, doesn't mean that it has already been done outside of that individual's own will.

I am not claiming it does mean it has been done or is done outside of a person's will. I am claiming if there is only one known possible outcome to any given set of circumstances then there is no choice but to do what is known. If there is no choice there is no "free" will.

 

[ImmortalTechnique]

actually, the other objections are meaningless as well. god's omniscience IS causal if he is all powerful and the first cause for everything. he created everything knowing how it would turn out and had the power to create it otherwise

 

[Exist]

You have a die in your hand. You're all-knowing, so you know that when you roll it, it will land on 3. You are all-powerful, so you know how to roll it to make it land on any other number.

When you roll it, is that number truly random? Are you not directly responsible for the number that comes up?

^ An omniscient, all powerful creator. Note, though, that "Creator" is a key element in this new argument. It's not vital in the OP. In the OP, it's only shown how we don't have free will (If the future is known, then it is set in stone: there is fate. Fate and free will cannot co-exist).

Gotta go

 

[elman]

actually, the other objections are meaningless as well. god's omniscience IS causal if he is all powerful and the first cause for everything. he created everything knowing how it would turn out and had the power to create it otherwise

If He is perfect then this is the best way to have created us and to do other wise would be less than perfect. He will not be less than perfect.

 

[elman]

You have a die in your hand. You're all-knowing, so you know that when you roll it, it will land on 3. You are all-powerful, so you know how to roll it to make it land on any other number.

When you roll it, is that number truly random? Are you not directly responsible for the number that comes up?

^ An omniscient, all powerful creator. Note, though, that "Creator" is a key element in this new argument. It's not vital in the OP. In the OP, it's only shown how we don't have free will (If the future is known, then it is set in stone: there is fate. Fate and free will cannot co-exist).

Gotta go

Foreknowledge does not elimate free will God created us with ability to decided for oursleves what number we would be. His knowing what we were going to do does not mean He forces us to be as we are.

 

[elman]

I am not claiming it does mean it has been done or is done outside of a person's will. I am claiming if there is only one known possible outcome to any given set of circumstances then there is no choice but to do what is known. If there is no choice there is no "free" will.

If the knowledge is of what someone is going to chose to do, that knowledge does not change their choice into a non choice. The knowledge and the choice are not with the same being. The knowledge is with the Creator and the choice is with the created.

 

[elman]

If I didn´t miss anything in the OP, it was merely discussing the compatibility of omniscience and "free will".
I haven´t read anything about worthiness of Gods or standards that anyone applied, nor about it being a reason to refuse Gods.

The incompatibility of "free will" and omniscience would be reason to refuse a god concept that pictures an omniscient God who gave us free will. This is just a logical argument without any moral implications and without further conclusions.

Free will and omniscience is not incompatible. Why would an omnipotent and omniscient God be unable to create us with the ability to chose to love or not love?

 

[elman]

But it does mean that it had been determined that the person will do.

No it means it has been determined or known ahead of time what that person will determine on his own to do.

 

[elman]

I was just reading through another thread and I noticed a comment to the effect of "God's foreknowledge is not causal." I have to agree with this statement, but this does not clear the way for free-will to exist in the presence of an omniscient being. If a being has perfect foreknowledge of all events then there is only one course of action for any "thing" contained within the universe. In order for free-will to exist there must be multiple courses of actions possible. Since all events are foreknown, it is also know that there is only one course of action to be taken. Therefore free-will is not compatible with omniscience.

This simply not reasonable. An omnipotent God is able to create a being with the ability to chose freely to love or not love and being also omniscient, the God can know ahead of time what that being is going to chose. The knowledge is totally unconected to and does not cause the choice which is made. The being with the ability to chose, continues to have multiple choices they could make and that remains true even when some other being knows what choice they are going to make. Right at the last minute the chosing being can change their mind, but if they do, the Creator would have known they were going to change their mind. Again, the Creator is not the cause of their changing their mind and the knowledge of the Creaotor is not the cause of the mind chang. The Created is the cause of the mind change and the choice.

 

[quatona]

Free will and omniscience is not incompatible. Why would an omnipotent and omniscient God be unable to create us with the ability to chose to love or not love?

Because if something is perfectly known ahead of time there is no space for choice.
In the last days I had a very long discussion with stumpjumper on this topic in another thread, so I beg for your understanding, that I won´t start the whole thing from scratch again.

 

[quatona]

No it means it has been determined or known ahead of time what that person will determine on his own to do.

 

[ImmortalTechnique]

this is completely meaningless. either way, god is a failure and an evil being.

either he is punishing people for things they are not really responsible for,

or else he created them with a will (even though he knows what will be done with that will) but created them knowing that that will would not choose him, even though he could have created otherwise.


no matter what, if people don't choose god, its his fault. if there is a possiblility of will with omniscience, it doesn't change the fact that god could have created the universe in such a way that everyone would choose him. they would still have choice, but all would choose him (if will and forekowledge are compatible)

any omnipotent omniscient creator is responsible for the outcome of every action, whether or not the creation has will and shares some of that responsibility.

if i create something and give it a choice, i am still responsible for the choice it makes if i KNOW what it will choose and could have made it so it would have chosen otherwise.

 

[elman]

Because if something is perfectly known ahead of time there is no space for choice.
In the last days I had a very long discussion with stumpjumper on this topic in another thread, so I beg for your understanding, that I won´t start the whole thing from scratch again.

That is not logical. If I know ahead of time what you are going to chose how does that eliminate your being the one that choses? I don't know how your debate with stumpjumper came out but it sounds like you have yet to get it right.

 

[elman]

this is completely meaningless. either way, god is a failure and an evil being.

either he is punishing people for things they are not really responsible for,

or else he created them with a will (even though he knows what will be done with that will) but created them knowing that that will would not choose him, even though he could have created otherwise.


no matter what, if people don't choose god, its his fault. if there is a possiblility of will with omniscience, it doesn't change the fact that god could have created the universe in such a way that everyone would choose him. they would still have choice, but all would choose him (if will and forekowledge are compatible)

any omnipotent omniscient creator is responsible for the outcome of every action, whether or not the creation has will and shares some of that responsibility.

if i create something and give it a choice, i am still responsible for the choice it makes if i KNOW what it will choose and could have made it so it would have chosen otherwise.

It is not possible to give a being the ability to love if you don't give the being the ability to not love. If you make the being so it choses just one way, you have made a robot and not a being that choses. It is like voting for only one canidate. That may be called a choice, but it is not in fact a choice. If God gave you the gift of life and gave you the ability to love or not love then when you do not love, God is not responsible. You are.

 

[ImmortalTechnique]

no, you're missing the point. god made us. god knew what we would choose from the beginning of the universe. if his foreknowledge doesn't invalidate choice, then he creates some people who he knows will choose him, and some people who he knows will not choose him, since some people in the world do both. those who choose him have will. those who do not choose him have will. god is all powerful, so he could have created everyone with choice, but all would choose to serve him. he didn't. therefore god does not want everyone to be saved.

 

[ImmortalTechnique]

just to clarify that a bit-

IF god is real, is all powerful, and all knowing-

god created you, knowing what you would choose, and you choose him. you have free will.


god created me, knowing what i would chose, and I didn't choose him. I have free will.

god created both of us, and could have created us another way (you like me, me like you, or either of us like something completely different)

if god wants all to be saved, why didn't he create everyone with a free will, but a free will that would choose him? he knew what you would choose, and created you that way. he knew what i would choose and created me that way. Why do I deserve hell?

 

[Natro]

No it means it has been determined or known ahead of time what that person will determine on his own to do.

That makes no sense. How can it be determined twice?