Omniscience causal

[Danhalen]

I was just reading through another thread and I noticed a comment to the effect of "God's foreknowledge is not causal." I have to agree with this statement, but this does not clear the way for free-will to exist in the presence of an omniscient being. If a being has perfect foreknowledge of all events then there is only one course of action for any "thing" contained within the universe. In order for free-will to exist there must be multiple courses of actions possible. Since all events are foreknown, it is also know that there is only one course of action to be taken. Therefore free-will is not compatible with omniscience.

 

[Beastt]

I was just reading through another thread and I noticed a comment to the effect of "God's foreknowledge is not causal." I have to agree with this statement, but this does not clear the way for free-will to exist in the presence of an omniscient being. If a being has perfect foreknowledge of all events then there is only one course of action for any "thing" contained within the universe. In order for free-will to exist there must be multiple courses of actions possible. Since all events are foreknown, it is also know that there is only one course of action to be taken. Therefore free-will is not compatible with omniscience.

It seems that more and more as I scan these threads I'm finding people noting two or more proclaimed qualities of God or God's plan which seem to be in conflict. Though many may choose to simply disregard these, others will spend a great deal if time thinking them through and trying to find ways for A to be compatible with B. My take on it is that as God began to take shape in the mind of man, more effort and thought was put into the traits of an all-powerful entity than to whether or not all of those traits could work together. In a time when wrong belief could lead to death, it's unlikely a lot of discussion occurred to polish this roughed out image of God. With the ban on discussion partially lifted, people have been noticing the conflicting nature of these traits. But those who already believe that man is born of God rather than the other way around, aren't going to abandon long-held beliefs over what I would imagine they see as meaningless details.

 

[Stormy]

Dan: I am not about to tell you that I fully understand all that is God... because I don't.

But the only way that I can see how God's omniscience quality could invade your freewill is if you were also in possession of your life story in detail from beginning to end.

For at that point you could quit making decisions, and thinking, and choosing, to produce what will become of you... instead you could just act out your lines.

But as far as I know you do not have this biography of your life, so you will just have to keep on keeping on, until one day after it is all over you can look back from where ever you are and say with God .... "ahhh I can see it all now."

As far as me... I don't really mind God knowing everything. I find it comforting.

 

[Natro]

Dan: I am not about to tell you that I fully understand all that is God... because I don't.

But the only way that I can see how God's omniscience quality could invade your freewill is if you were also in possession of your life story in detail from beginning to end.

For at that point you could quit making decisions, and thinking, and choosing, to produce what will become of you... instead you could just act out your lines.

But as far as I know you do not have this biography of your life, so you will just have to keep on keeping on, until one day after it is all over you can look back from where ever you are and say with God .... "ahhh I can see it all now."

As far as me... I don't really mind God knowing everything. I find it comforting.

So basicly you find the illusion of freewill comforting?

 

[Danhalen]

Dan: I am not about to tell you that I fully understand all that is God... because I don't.

I wouldn't expect you to. I don't fully understand my wife.

But the only way that I can see how God's omniscience quality could invade your freewill is if you were also in possession of your life story in detail from beginning to end.

It's not an invasive thing. It's an incompatible thing. If there is only one possible outcome, there is no choice to make.

For at that point you could quit making decisions, and thinking, and choosing, to produce what will become of you... instead you could just act out your lines.

If all actions are known then the only decision we can make is the one God knows. It does not matter what I know if there is a being who knows everything.

But as far as I know you do not have this biography of your life, so you will just have to keep on keeping on, until one day after it is all over you can look back from where ever you are and say with God .... "ahhh I can see it all now."

As far as I know, noone has this biography, and I still don't believe in free-will.

As far as me... I don't really mind God knowing everything. I find it comforting.

If I thought there were a God who knew everything it wouldn't bother me either.

 

[radorth]

I was just reading through another thread and I noticed a comment to the effect of "God's foreknowledge is not causal." I have to agree with this statement, but this does not clear the way for free-will to exist in the presence of an omniscient being. If a being has perfect foreknowledge of all events then there is only one course of action for any "thing" contained within the universe. In order for free-will to exist there must be multiple courses of actions possible. Since all events are foreknown, it is also know that there is only one course of action to be taken. Therefore free-will is not compatible with omniscience.

There was once a great God named Yeshua. Yeshua performed many miracles to help people and could read almost everyone's minds. A few times though, while visiting the earth, he was very surprised at how much faith some people had. Yeshua hoped he could save an evil, selfish race of people who could never, ever redeem themselves, by imputing his own righteousness to them. He hoped all would be saved, but he wasn't sure. As it turned out, only 94% of all people were saved.

Yeshua wasn't omiscient, yet all the people he saved and took to heaven with him decided Yeshua was a good, righteous and holy God, and served him for all eternity.

Reality check. It makes no logical or practical difference at all whether he is omniscient or not. What are you going to do, refuse to serve an otherwise worthy God because he did not live up to some arbitrary standard, either yours or mine?

I think not.

Rad

 

[Natro]

There was once a great God named Yeshua. Yeshua performed many miracles to help people and could read almost everyone's minds. A few times though, while visiting the earth, he was very surprised at how much faith some people had. Yeshua hoped he could save an evil, selfish race of people who could never, ever redeem themselves, by imputing his own righteousness to them. He hoped all would be saved, but he wasn't sure. As it turned out, only 94% of all people were saved.

Yeshua wasn't omiscient, yet all the people he saved and took to heaven with him decided Yeshua was a good, righteous and holy God, and served him for all eternity.

Reality check. It makes no logical or practical difference at all whether he is omniscient or not. What are you going to do, refuse to serve an otherwise worthy God because he did not live up to some arbitrary standard, either yours or mine?

I think not.

Rad

It matters if its omniscient or not because without that its not what has been defined God.

 

[Danhalen]

There was once a great God named Yeshua. Yeshua performed many miracles to help people and could read almost everyone's minds. A few times though, while visiting the earth, he was very surprised at how much faith some people had. Yeshua hoped he could save an evil, selfish race of people who could never, ever redeem themselves, by imputing his own righteousness to them. He hoped all would be saved, but he wasn't sure. As it turned out, only 94% of all people were saved.
Yeshua wasn't omiscient, yet all the people he saved and took to heaven with him decided Yeshua was a good, righteous and holy God, and served him for all eternity.
Reality check. It makes no logical or practical difference at all whether he is omniscient or not. What are you going to do, refuse to serve an otherwise worthy God because he did not live up to some arbitrary standard, either yours or mine?
I think not.

If it is not your contention that your God is omniscient then this thread is not in conflict with your beliefs.
I think you know better than to make the claim I would reject your God due to an omniscience issue with free-will. By the way, if your God is omniscient then I have no choice but to not believe in it - since your God knew before time eternal I wouldn't.

 

[Stormy]

I still don't understand how you think that God knowing what you will do is the same as choosing for you what you will do.

OK... suppose you had a dream about your friend and in this dream you knew exactly what was going to happen in her life tommorrow.

Now it is the next day and your friend is living out what you had already seen in your dream.

Did you will her to do what she did? Were you responsible for her actions?

 

[Natro]

I still don't understand how you think that God knowing what you will do is the same as choosing for you what you will do.

OK... suppose you had a dream about your friend and in this dream you knew exactly what was going to happen in her life tommorrow.

Now it is the next day and your friend is living out what you had already seen in your dream.

Did you will her to do what she did? Were you responsible for her actions?

The key word is "free"... We all agree "will" exist.

 

[radorth]

It matters if its omniscient or not because without that its not what has been defined God.

How about thinking for yourself then instead of siezing on some doctrine you can find fault with. Do you want to know if Jesus is the son of God and the savior of humankind or not? Because if you don't he's not going to bother answering meaningless questions for you, nor should he.

Rad

 

[radorth]

If it is not your contention that your God is omniscient then this thread is not in conflict with your beliefs.
I think you know better than to make the claim I would reject your God due to an omniscience issue with free-will. By the way, if your God is omniscient then I have no choice but to not believe in it - since your God knew before time eternal I wouldn't.

I'm just saying, since you seem to be one open, that even if you win this argument, it will not help you or anyone else find out if the Christian God exists and is not substantially like Christ, or if he is good, righteous, just, holy and worthy of emulating.

Rad

 

[Danhalen]

I still don't understand how you think that God knowing what you will do is the same as choosing for you what you will do.

It is not God choosing anything. If that were the case I would say God's omniscience is causal. I am saying God's omniscience negates the possibility of things being any different than God has forseen them to be. Do I have the choice to do anything other than what God has forseen? It's not that God chooses for us. It's that we have no choice.

OK... suppose you had a dream about your friend and in this dream you knew exactly what was going to happen in her life tommorrow.
Now it is the next day and your friend is living out what you had already seen in your dream.
Did you will her to do what she did? Were you responsible for her actions?

Again, it's not about what the omniscient being chooses. It's not about the responsibility of the omniscient being. It's about the zero possibility of a choosing a different course of action.

 

[Phinehas]

I was just reading through another thread and I noticed a comment to the effect of "God's foreknowledge is not causal." I have to agree with this statement, but this does not clear the way for free-will to exist in the presence of an omniscient being. If a being has perfect foreknowledge of all events then there is only one course of action for any "thing" contained within the universe. In order for free-will to exist there must be multiple courses of actions possible. Since all events are foreknown, it is also know that there is only one course of action to be taken. Therefore free-will is not compatible with omniscience.

Foreknown ≠ foredone.

 

[Danhalen]

I'm just saying, since you seem to be one open, that even if you win this argument, it will not help you or anyone else find out if the Christian God exists and is not substantially like Christ, or if he is good, righteous, just, holy and worthy of emulating.

I'll be honest. This is just mental masturbation.
If the Christian God exists I am sure I'll come by him in due time.

 

[Natro]

How about thinking for yourself then instead of siezing on some doctrine you can find fault with. Do you want to know if Jesus is the son of God and the savior of humankind or not? Because if you don't he's not going to bother answering meaningless questions for you, nor should he.

Rad

Do you want to know if Jesus is the son of God and the savior of humankind or not or do you want Jesus to be the son of God and the savior of humankind?

 

[Natro]

Foreknown ≠ foredone.

Once again its the "free" not the "will".

 

[Danhalen]

Foreknown ≠ foredone.

I never claimed that it did equate. .

 

[Danhalen]

I'll be back for more at a later time. I have got to get to bed. I have a test in my philosophy class at 9:00.

 

[Phinehas]

Regarding " Foreknown ≠ foredone."

I never claimed that it did equate. .

Just because it is known that someone will do something, doesn't mean that it has already been done outside of that individual's own will.