Old Testament Applicability

[OzSpen]

Out of all I posted, biblical citations included, that is what you decide to quote?

And no it wasn't more. It was simple laws for obedience to get them to realize they need a savior.

Biblical citations don't prove that the OT Law dealt with the laws for theocratic Israel and they did not all point to the Messiah. That was my point. You seem to be rather myopic when you want the OT Law to point to Christ. There are parts that do that. Most of it is law for Israel to run the nation.

Oz

 

[ChrisHolland619]

Old Testament Law was a schoolmaster that was required to point us towards Christ so that we might have faith in Him and come to Him in faith and faith alone, realizing we couldn't keep the Law ourselves.

It's very VERY simple.

 

[OzSpen]

Old Testament Law was a schoolmaster that was required to point us towards Christ so that we might have faith in Him and come to Him in faith and faith alone, realizing we couldn't keep the Law ourselves.

It's very VERY simple.

Yes, it is very simple but you seem to be missing a good hunk of OT Law. It was the Law of the theocratic kingdom of Israel.

Oz

 

[ChrisHolland619]

Yes, it is very simple but you seem to be missing a good hunk of OT Law. It was the Law of the theocratic kingdom of Israel.

Oz

..yes, and that was certainly a benefit to it. But the POINT to the 600 or so laws, the obligations, the rituals, the sacrifices, the obedience, etc, it was designed to point them towards the promised Messiah Jesus Christ.

Which is why we cannot be saved by the works of the Law, merely faith in Christ.

 

[tzadik]

Out of all I posted, biblical citations included, that is what you decide to quote?

And no it wasn't more. It was simple laws for obedience to get them to realize they need a savior.

Question...

Does Psalm 119 look like someone delighting, praising, enjoying in something that no longer serves a purpose to him----since I'm pretty sure David was already 'led to Messiah'?

In other words Psalm 119 clearly tells us that the Law of God benefits the believer (that was already led to Messiah) exponentially more, once he is a believer!

 

[tzadik]

..yes, and that was certainly a benefit to it. But the POINT to the 600 or so laws, the obligations, the rituals, the sacrifices, the obedience, etc, it was designed to point them towards the promised Messiah Jesus Christ.

Which is why we cannot be saved by the works of the Law, merely faith in Christ.

Maybe I'm misunderstanding you...but are you telling me that...
when the Torah was given to Israel---none of them were "saved"?

aka...the Torah was a 'tract' to lead all of Israel to become believers...and not an Instruction manual for the Household of God to live a righteous life?

 

[tzadik]

tzadik,

I note your tactic. You ignored what I stated that Jesus declared all food clean - he purged all food - and you are off and running with what you want to say. You don't care about the meaning of the text that I posted to you.

Actually, I did not ignore it…but let me tell you what I did do…
See before I can even try and get to the conclusion you are drawing from the text that Yeshua “cancelled” a commandment from the Torah and promoted the eating of unclean meats…I definitely need to verify this ‘conclusion’ with Scripture.

A. How is it possible for Yeshua to cancel/abolish a commandment from the Father regarding food? [Even the most ‘anti-law’ purporter would agree that no commandments were abolished, until after his death] Are you telling me that Yeshua started cancelling His Father’s Holy Law, while He was still alive and completely OBEDIENT to the Law?
B. Did not Messiah just 10 chapters before Matthew 15 explicitly state that “I did NOT come to abolish any commandments, but to fulfill” and “until heaven and earth pass, not even the smallest stroke of the Law will pass away, until ALL is accomplished”? [Cancelling Leviticus 11+Deuteronomy 14 would certainly be a grievous oxymoron]
C. Unless I’m mistaken, there is absolutely not one single mention about “clean and unclean meats” ANYWHERE in Mark 7 or Matthew 15. Why then is the subject of clean and unclean foods even brought up, when the context is CLEARLY about clean and unclean hands?

So you see, I didn’t “ignore” your conclusion, but rather verified that “conclusion” with the Word of God and it came up lacking…

 

[ChrisHolland619]

The Law did not save, no. A lot of the Israelites went to hell because they believed in just the laws not the promise of God. They got wrapped up in legalism, works for salvation, which is what Paul is refuting in Galatians. Surely you know this. They were called Judaizers.

 

[tzadik]

The Law did not save, no.

We agree on that one.

A lot of the Israelites went to hell because they believed in just the laws not the promise of God.

Also agree with you here –just like many non-Israelites are also going to hell today for following their ways, and trying to create their own righteousness instead of God’s.

They got wrapped up in legalism, works for salvation, which is what Paul is refuting in Galatians. Surely you know this. They were called Judaizers.

Again I agree with you here. Almost all of Paul’s letters were dealing with these guys. People misusing the Law of God and imposing non-Scriptural rules on the lives of believers.

However, Paul himself was someone who correctly used the Law of God (for instruction), lived according to the Torah of God and taught the same.

 

[ChrisHolland619]

Yes, but it had nothing to do with his salvation. That is my entire point. We do as God says because we love Him. "If you love me, keep my commandments."

But I am referring to salvation, which the law does NOT provide.

 

[tzadik]

Yes, but it had nothing to do with his salvation. That is my entire point. We do as God says because we love Him. "If you love me, keep my commandments."

But I am referring to salvation, which the law does NOT provide.

Devil's advocate:

Does the Law really play no part in leading us to salvation?

2 Timothy 3:14-15
"You, however, continue in the things you have learned and become convinced of, knowing from whom you have learned them, and that from childhood you have known the sacred writings which are able to give you the wisdom that leads to salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus."

"The law of the LORD is perfect, converting the soul: " Psalm 19:7

"Therefore the Law has become our tutor to lead us to Christ, so that we may be justified by faith." Galatians 3:24

 

[Skala]

Devil's advocate:

Does the Law really play no part in leading us to salvation?

2 Timothy 3:14-15
"You, however, continue in the things you have learned and become convinced of, knowing from whom you have learned them, and that from childhood you have known the sacred writings which are able to give you the wisdom that leads to salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus."

"The law of the LORD is perfect, converting the soul: " Psalm 19:7

"Therefore the Law has become our tutor to lead us to Christ, so that we may be justified by faith." Galatians 3:24

The law has everything to do with salvation!

But we are saved because Christ obeyed the law perfectly, in our place

His obedience and righteousness is credited to us. So we are saved by obedience to the law, but it's not ours, but Christ's obedience.

This is a good study on the difference between the first and second Adam. The first Adam failed the covenant of works. in the covenant of grace, Christ succeeded where Adam failed.

I found this an interesting read

How the Work of Christ “Works”: Understanding the Covenant of Works

 

[tzadik]

The law has everything to do with salvation!

But we are saved because Christ obeyed the law perfectly, in our place

His obedience and righteousness is credited to us. So we are saved by obedience to the law, but it's not ours, but Christ's obedience.

This is a good study on the difference between the first and second Adam. The first Adam failed the covenant of works. in the covenant of grace, Christ succeeded where Adam failed.

I found this an interesting read

How the Work of Christ “Works”: Understanding the Covenant of Works

And what do we do now that we've been justified?
What is our relationship to the Law of God now?

 

[ChrisHolland619]

Devil's advocate:

Does the Law really play no part in leading us to salvation?

2 Timothy 3:14-15
"You, however, continue in the things you have learned and become convinced of, knowing from whom you have learned them, and that from childhood you have known the sacred writings which are able to give you the wisdom that leads to salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus."

"The law of the LORD is perfect, converting the soul: " Psalm 19:7

"Therefore the Law has become our tutor to lead us to Christ, so that we may be justified by faith." Galatians 3:24

Just because it plays a part doesn't mean it saves you. There is a STARK difference in those two statements.

No one said the Law wasn't important, no one said it was essential for us to REALIZE that we are sinners. But it plays *no* part in SALVATION.

 

[joseph10]

I have enjoyed greatly this area of study. May I bring a little truth to the subject.
First off there is but one word of God. No new testament and no old testament. Just one word. Gods word as given. We of the new Birth have tried to cast off all the roots of the faith which are were our salvation comes from. Salvation is of the Jews.
So what then is the reason the old testament is in bible and divided from the new testament. i will explain this in my words from what God has taught me. I really do not want to go into this much. Because God in wisdom had determined to undo the works of Satan via Christ and the cross. He gave the examples in the old testament and also showed Christ and the coming salvation to come. God gave us the Law for this purpose. To show the need for grace and also to show that the Law rules over sin. Today many people will try to tell you the law is done away with. That is far from the case.
In the case of aninnus and safira Whom lied to the Holy Spirit they were Judged in Grace under the law. Fully Judged. While in grace. So when they tell you that you can't be judged under the law. You tell them they are nuts. Because there is a point when God gets feed up and will judge those whom have become wicked and will not turn.
The bible declares the fear of the Lord is to hate evil and wicked ways. As a christian your sins are 100 percent forgiven. Past present and future. When why the judgement of aninius and sifira. How Could they have been judged. Note these two people had a real relationship with God and were born again and also had preformed Healing by the power of the Holy Spirit. So were they judged in Grace or under the law. They offended Grace. And were judged by the Law. Conspired to Lie to God. Evil was found in them to the degree that Gods struck them dead. Did they go to heaven.
I would declare no. Some will declare once saved always saved.
Let me explain why i said no. They died in Sin. God killed them in that state for a reason. He cast them off after salvation. Whey were like Judas.
The objective reason this example was given in the bible to let believers know that Gods grace comes with responsibility. Pastors do not want to touch on this topic due to it not being explainable in the context of Grace. Christ did not come to due away with the Law. The Law is fully in place. The law is not intended for believers. But Father God can bring the letter of the Law down upon any believer at any time. This is actually the case all the time. When people whom have tasted the power of the Holy Spirit and return to wickedness. God will go after them in Mercy. Leaving the 99 and seeking the lost sheep. If they continue to refuse he sometimes allows them to be wounded greatly and even break them and makes them 100 percent dependent on him.
For everything. Sometimes when people cross the line God simply brings the law down on them.
All the day long i have stretched out my hand against he sexually immoral of my own house. Christians. Stretched out hand of the Law giver. God brings the Law down.
The law is to kill the flesh. The Law corrects. The Law and Grace work to one end actually. To drive people to there knees.
It is by the law that a person knows the need for Grace. And it is by Grace that one must enter to Christ kingdom.
IN the case of Aninus and Sufria they had trampled the son of God and his gift of salvation under Foot. The Law stepped up and judged them. Simple said walk in a pure heart.
The examples in the old testament are about wisdom. Examples. God hates these types of people, People whom bear false witness, People whom lie, whos feet are swife to run to evil. God shows us that curses come onto people whom steal and bring it into there homes. God curse comes on them whom attack the priest. Wives attacking the priest of you homes? Curse of rebellion against the Headship of the home as appointed by God? Principle of conduct related to the home and ministry. All right there in the old testament. God hates them whom count the birthright as nothing. Get it God hates some types of people and some peoples conduct. Of course God is love. So what is is does God hate or does he love.
BOTH. God is not divided. He is not stupid either. God is right to hate those whom reject his birthright. And he loves these whom seek him place in the kingdom and he also seek to please God in Conduct.
God has given stern warnings in the new testament about the requirement of believers to enter into faith and to walk out there faith with fear and tremblings.
If you make the chose not to do that you will bear the results. And do not be fooled.
God can give you eternal life in hell. Jesus said were i go you will come.
Were did he Go. he went to hell and he went to heaven. So he can send you to either one. He can prepare you eternal life in hell and in heaven. He owns them both. Walk worthy of Christ and be thankful. God is not mocked. Spiting on salvation is more then simple rebellion.
There is just the right amount of scripture in the bible to let you know that you best get your heart in the right place and keep it there. Good luck.

 

[phoenixdem]

Joseph, would you tell us something about yourself? Where were you born and where do you live now?

 

[joseph10]

I was born the day John F. Kennedy took office. I live in America.

 

[joseph10]

The Good news of the Gospel is this that God has provided salvation unto the world for all whom would enter in thru Jesus Christ. That Grace has come unto a sinful world. That God would tabernacle with man. Christ said he and the Father is one. And Indeed God is Love. God does not kill.
Simple said you can't declare more then is written and be right. Jesus Christ offer of salvation is a free no strings attached gift to those whom are sinners in need of a savior. Christ came to undo the works of the Devil. To restore mankind to the Father. The remarkable part of salvation is that God can now live in a sinful body. The born again believer. The reason he can is because the whole body of weight of a person sin, past present and future has already been imputed to Christ. Remarkable many Christians today are beguiled into thinking sin is the problem in the churches or that God is out to get you.
God is drawing his people to a sinless life. God is moving his people from Glory to a higher Glory. From one level of understanding to a higher level of understanding. The work has been undertook by God himself and he shall finish it.
The law is of none effect on them he has elected. They are born not of the bondwoman but of the woman of promise. Those under the law are subject to the bondage of the Law. But those born of the Promise are set free from bondage. For what bondage is there that can overturn the promise of God.
For it is now said, shall sin separate me from he whom was made sin for me. Indeed not. Shall the bond woman and free woman receive the same reward. Indeed not. For i am not born of the law but of grace. The Law was a tutor until Grace came. Now Grace is a tutor and the Law is of none effect to the spirit of those whom are born of God. For the seed that is in you is not of sin, But of God. Gods grace overcame the demands of his law. Were sin abounds much more grace abounds. Grace beyond measure is applied. The Law demand punishment, Grace freely pardons.
The Law never forgets, Grace removed the stains, also the demand for punishment. The Law condemns, Grace pardons.
Christ payed the penalty demanded by the Holiness of Gods law. So how shall you now pay what the law no longer demands.
Many suffer today being made subjects of demons whom torment them day and night. They are on bondage of the Law. Never being able to come to the full assurance of the promise the Christ because of this they are captives of the wicked one. For this is how he torments them. They are free in Christ yet slaves to wrong thinking.
In there minds the war rages. They have a divided mind. Half think God is out to get me and the other half thinking God is love. They are in heavy bondage. Whom has placed this yoke on them. The enemy's of God. For Christ did not come to place a yoke of bondage upon the necks of men.
He came to set men at liberty in the full assurance of Christ finished works.
He came to break the yokes.
Christ has finished the process of salvation of man spirit. That war is over for a believer. Or do you not know that he whom is born of God can't sin. For God is not subject to the Law nor his heirs. But sinners are subject to the law. But you have been made the righteousness of God. A Holy People, a royal priesthood. A people of the election of God. Grace has been applied. Grace has run the race, grace has won the victory.
The salvation of the spirit of man was finished the first time a believer repented and ask for Grace.
The salvation of the soul ( mind,will and emotions ) is being worked out with fear and trembling. And by the reforming of the mind by the word of God.
The salvation of the body takes place at the resurrection of the dead. Because the body is born of the dust of the earth and the body is subject to sin and decays. The body is not spirit it is flesh.
It is written he whom suffers in the flesh is being perfected in the spirit.
That is the spirit of his mind. Not in the seed of Christ in you. For we are born of the seed of Christ. Gal 4:
So why being freed from the law do you seek to enter into the bondage of the law once more. For the law did not bring you joy, it did not give you peace, it provided no promise, it placed a millstone around you neck, and weighted you down with great weight. Yet Christ came to serve and not be served. What then do you think that we serve God by placing men under the bondage of the law. For bondage is bondage. But Be Christ to all set the captives free.
We remove people from bondage by telling them of Mercy and God grace.
Mercy is for the asking. Do not be as the scribes and the hypocrites. Do not become as useless as a lawyer. Unwilling to even lift one finger to help a person. For do not lawyers demand punishment for even the smallest infraction of the law. They are of evil whom are born of evil. A good tree can't bear evil fruit and a evil tree can't bear good fruit. Speak plainly and with few words, but let you words be full of truth.
Above all Love as Christ has loved. Above all pray for the lost and the Lords will be done. Above all let mercy rule in your hearts. Cast off the old and put on the new. Let the division of the mind now be put away and be of one unified mind. A double minded person shall not receive anything from the Lord. Let your service be honorable before the Lord. Love all people, be humble, be holy, be steadfast, be ready in season and out of season. Be thankful and rejoice in him weather in trials, in sickness, in distress, in hell itself. Be Christ to all and in all. Seek peace, live in grace toward all.
I have run my race, i have keep the faith. I see a city far away of which soon i will depart and go. Keep the faith friends for he is faithful his mercy endures forever. Learn to be like your Father. Knowing right from wrong.
Do not do evil. For it defines you. With hold your fellowship with wicked people. Keep you self in all meekness. Be sober minded and seek him. He delights in the wisdom of his people. Get wisdom and get understanding.
These keep you all your days.
Do not be turned to the left or the right press forward as you shall never be forsaken nor shall you be rejected. What God saves he saves. What he writes is written. Your name is written in the book of life. You are covered by the blood of the Lamb. I have become all things to all people. Do likewise. Pull some out with fear. Become sin if need be. Suffer if need be. Do all with a pure motive and a pure heart. Will you bear wrong that another be saved. What is suffering compared to he promise. What is lose compared to what we have gained.
Above all fear God, hate evil and the wicked way. Put away the way of wickedness from you. Put the Law away. Put on the bond of the perfection of love, Live by the law of Love. This is the law of grace.
The law of wrath is death. the law of grace is Love. The two have no part of one another.
Yet do not be foolish, God refines what he catches. God molds his vessels for his use that can be a painful process. We suffer a great many things being conformed to his image. We suffer lost at times but God can restore. You do not know God until you have run the race and suffered all things. Stay the course
run the race, press in and press onward. The prize is at hand.

 

[toLiJC]

How does one determine what parts of the Old Testament are directly applicable to life now? For example, does Leviticus 15 still hold true? If not, how does one explain Matthew 5:17-20? Thanks for your serious consideration of these questions.

the old testament was established principally on carnal commandments and it is full of malign ordinances for: vengeance/revenge, killing with stones and knife, cursing with bitter water and conjuration, mutilation/disfigurement, hatred/rancor, neglect, etc., then, it is a "beastly" creed, of course not because the true Lord God made/gave it so, but because its unrighteous followers/worshippers have made it (to be) such, so it is a rudimental doctrine and is no longer current/relevant, now only satan can have power over it, because the true Lord God had discontinued His contribution/appurtenance in it already 2 millennia ago, except the support of Ten Commandments and all other ordinances which are not malign to the humans

Matthew 5:38-48 "Ye have heard that it hath been said, An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth: But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek(ie to every human who is evil to you), turn to him the other also(ie be only Good to it). And if any man will sue thee at the law, and take away thy coat(ie anyone who think that you are unrighteous/bad, and want judge you), let him have thy cloak also(ie be always meek not only to it, but to all humans at all). And whosoever shall compel thee to go a mile(ie every who wants from you to do good (things)), go with him twain(ie go and do the Best which you succeed). Give(ie give only good things) to him that asketh thee, and from him that would borrow of thee turn not thou away. Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy. But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you; That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun(ie His benediction/grace) to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain(ie His purification) on the just(ie on the believers) and on the unjust(ie and on the disbelievers). For if ye love them which love you, what reward have ye? do not even the publicans(ie the unrighteous people) the same? And if ye salute your brethren only, what do ye more |than others|? do not even the publicans so? Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.",

Mark 10:5 "And Jesus answered and said unto them, For the hardness of your heart he(ie Moses) wrote you this precept.",

John 12:31-32 "Now is the judgment of this world(ie now is the deliverance of the humankind from all malign religious law in the Heaven): now shall the prince of this world be cast out(ie now all inner/domestic power of satan will be permanently destroyed). And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me(or: will save all humans unto eternal life).",

Matthew 27:50-56 "Jesus, when he had cried again with a loud voice, yielded up the ghost. And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom(ie all malign ordinances in God's covenant/testament has been annulled); and the earth did quake(ie the powers did shake), and the rocks rent(ie and the whole inner/domestic power of satan has permanently been removed/destroyed); And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose, And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many. Now when the centurion, and they that were with him, watching Jesus, saw the earthquake, and those things that were done, they feared greatly, saying, Truly this was the Son of God. And many women were there beholding afar off, which followed Jesus from Galilee, ministering unto him: Among which was Mary Magdalene, and Mary the mother of James and Joses, and the mother of Zebedee's children.",

Colossians 2:14-15 "Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us(ie which was harmful/pernicious to the humans), and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross; |And| having spoiled principalities(ie the unrighteous creeds/denominations) and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it.",

Hebrews 8:7-13 "if that first |covenant| had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second. For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah: Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt(ie out of the land of occultism and idolatry); because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord. For this |is| the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel(ie with the humans that still have no eternal life) after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts(ie in their spirits): and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people: And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest. For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness(ie I will permanently remove the unrighteousness from them), and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more(ie I will not allow to exist sins and crimes among them any more). In that he saith, A new |covenant|, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old |is| ready to vanish away.",

Hebrews 9:1-12 "Then verily the first covenant had also ordinances of divine service, and a worldly sanctuary..... the priests went always into the first tabernacle, accomplishing the service of God. But into the second went the high priest alone once every year, not without blood, which he offered for himself, and for the errors of the people: The Holy Ghost this signifying, that the way into the holiest of all was not yet made manifest, while as the first tabernacle was yet standing: Which was a figure for the time then present, in which were offered both gifts and sacrifices, that could not make him that did the service perfect, as pertaining to the conscience; Which stood only in meats and drinks, and divers washings, and carnal ordinances, imposed on them until the time of reformation. But Christ being come an high priest of good things to come, by a greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this building; Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us."

Blessings

 

[ChrisHolland619]

Joseph, you seem to misunderstand quite a few things about the gospel of Christ. I'll be praying that you depend fully on Christ so you can receive eternal life.