Old Testament Applicability

[ChrisHolland619]

What you are saying then, is that all the believers from Adam through the thief on the cross were under the law of the knowledge of sin and death and not the law of faith and love?

Where is the reference that tells you that you are now “under the law of faith and love”?

"For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death." Romans 8:2 KJV

"Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin." Romans 3:20 KJV

"Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith. Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law." Romans 3:27-28 KJV

The Bible makes it quite clear that the Old Testament law of Moses is not what gains us justification, just the law of Jesus Christ, which is the law of grace, faith, and love of God which we are under now, for those abiding in Christ Jesus our Lord.

 

[OzSpen]

Unfortunately your NIV version is not staying true to the text.
If you look at the Greek or Hebrew, there is absolutely NO mention of the added text "in saying this Jesus made all foods clean".

The context of both Mark 7 and Matthew 15 is the eating with unclean hands.

Absolutely NOTHING to do with clean and unclean foods of Leviticus 11 and Deuteronomy 14.

tzadik,

You happen to be very wrong as you don’t seem to know the Greek NT. In my Greek text, at the end of Mark 7:19 we have the words that are translated in bold in all of the following translations that tell me that the words you say are not in the NT are actually there.

They are in my Greek text (UBS 1975), katharizwn panta ta brwmata. What does it mean? Literally: ‘making all meats clean’ or ‘purging/cleansing all the foods’.

Mark 7:19 presents these representative translations:

KJV, Because it entereth not into his heart, but into the belly, and goeth out into the draught, purging all meats?

ASV, because it goeth not into his heart, but into his belly, and goeth out into the draught? This he said, making all meats clean.

RSV, since it enters, not his heart but his stomach, and so passes on?" (Thus he declared all foods clean.)

NRSV, since it enters, not the heart but the stomach, and goes out into the sewer?’ (Thus he declared all foods clean.)

ESV, since it enters not his heart but his stomach, and is expelled?” (Thus he declared all foods clean.)

NIV, For it doesn’t go into their heart but into their stomach, and then out of the body.” (In saying this, Jesus declared all foods clean.)

NLT, Food doesn’t go into your heart, but only passes through the stomach and then goes into the sewer.” (By saying this, he declared that every kind of food is acceptable in God’s eyes.)

I urge you not to misrepresent what the Greek text states.

Sincerely, Oz

 

[tzadik]

"For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death." Romans 8:2 KJV

The Law of God is a Spiritual Law that was given to give life and instruct us in Righteous living!
You are placing the Holy Law of God on the wrong side.


7. What shall we say then? Is the Law sin? May it never be! On the contrary, I would not have come to know sin except through the Law; for I would not have known about coveting if the Law had not said, "you shall not covet.”
8. But sin, taking opportunity through the commandment, produced in me coveting of every kind; for apart from the Law sin is dead.
9. I was once alive apart from the Law; but when the commandment came, sin became alive and I died;
10. and this commandment, which was to result in life, proved to result in death for me;
11. for sin, taking an opportunity through the commandment, deceived me and through it killed me.
12. So then, the Law is holy, and the commandment is holy and righteous and good.
13. Therefore did that which is good become a cause of death for me? May it never be! Rather it was sin, in order that it might be shown to be sin by effecting my death through that which is good, so that through the commandment sin would become utterly sinful.
14. For we know that the Law is spiritual, but I am of flesh, sold into bondage to sin.

The Law of God is Spiritual, it is our flesh and sin that misuses the law and causes death and sin.

Don’t get it twisted.

 

[OzSpen]

What were the requirements of the "Old Covenant"?

What are the 'new' requirements of the "New Covenant"?

Read the OT for the requirements of the Old Covenant.

Read the NT for the requirements of the New Covenant.

It's as simple as that.

Sincerely, Oz

 

[tzadik]

"Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin." Romans 3:20 KJV

Agreed, the Law of God was not given to bring justification. Anyone seeking to be justified by works of the law will NEVER be justified.

"Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith. Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law." Romans 3:27-28 KJV

Messiah = Redemption/Justification
Torah of God = Instruction.

This was, is and will always be true.

The Bible makes it quite clear that the Old Testament law of Moses is not what gains us justification

The Law of God was NEVER given to bring justification! EVER!

just the law of Jesus Christ, which is the law of grace, faith, and love of God which we are under now, for those abiding in Christ Jesus our Lord.

What are the commandments of this law?

 

[Johnnz]

The Law of God is Spiritual, it is our flesh and sin that misuses the law and causes death and sin.

That's just text quoting. What you quoted is part of Paul's ongoing argument, not its conclusion.

John
NZ

 

[tzadik]

Read the OT for the requirements of the Old Covenant.

Read the NT for the requirements of the New Covenant.

It's as simple as that.

Sincerely, Oz

Are you serious??

There is ABSOLUTELY no Biblical basis for viewing Genesis through Malachi as the “Old Covenant” and Matthew through Revelation as the “New Covenant”.

This is 100% man-made.

 

[David Pratt]

To Myles-2-Chem

[I have never heard that along with the New Testament comes the banning of the death penalty or divorce.]

[The scripture I remember states that divorce should only take place if there is infidelity. Does the Bible actually state these things?]


Sorry for the delay Myles. Working full time now has made me lapse in this forum.



[Death Penalty - Banned]


King James Version Bible

Romans Chapter 12

19. Dearly beloved, avenge not yourselves, but [rather] give place unto wrath: for it is written, Vengeance [is] mine; I will repay, saith the Lord.


Matthew Chapter 5

38. Ye have heard that it hath been said, An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth:

39. But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also.



[Divorce - Banned]


Luke Chapter 16

18. Whosoever putteth away his wife, and marrieth another, committeth adultery: and whosoever marrieth her that is put away from [her] husband committeth adultery.


1 Corinthians Chapter 7

15. But if the unbelieving depart, let him depart. A brother or a sister is not under bondage in such [cases]: but God hath called us to peace.


[depart = leaving]

[depart ≠ divorce]


11. But and if she depart, let her remain unmarried, or be reconciled to [her] husband: and let not the husband put away [his] wife.

39. The wife is bound by the law as long as her husband liveth; but if her husband be dead, she is at liberty to be married to whom she will; only in the Lord.

 

[tzadik]

tzadik,

You happen to be very wrong as you don’t seem to know the Greek NT. In my Greek text, at the end of Mark 7:19 we have the words that are translated in bold in all of the following translations that tell me that the words you say are not in the NT are actually there.

They are in my Greek text (UBS 1975), katharizwn panta ta brwmata. What does it mean? Literally: ‘making all meats clean’ or ‘purging/cleansing all the foods’.

Mark 7:19 presents these representative translations:

KJV, Because it entereth not into his heart, but into the belly, and goeth out into the draught, purging all meats?

ASV, because it goeth not into his heart, but into his belly, and goeth out into the draught? This he said, making all meats clean.

RSV, since it enters, not his heart but his stomach, and so passes on?" (Thus he declared all foods clean.)

NRSV, since it enters, not the heart but the stomach, and goes out into the sewer?’ (Thus he declared all foods clean.)

ESV, since it enters not his heart but his stomach, and is expelled?” (Thus he declared all foods clean.)

NIV, For it doesn’t go into their heart but into their stomach, and then out of the body.” (In saying this, Jesus declared all foods clean.)

NLT, Food doesn’t go into your heart, but only passes through the stomach and then goes into the sewer.” (By saying this, he declared that every kind of food is acceptable in God’s eyes.)

I urge you not to misrepresent what the Greek text states.

Sincerely, Oz

I can also try to find an "NIV" version of the Greek...and it would say whatever I want it to say...

I'm talking about original old Greek...
not a "reader's 7th edition" etc...

I mean no disrespect...

(I'm glad you're atleast including the parenteses) That alone should alert you to something that wasn't in the previous manuscripts...

 

[OzSpen]

I can also try to find an "NIV" version of the Greek...and it would say whatever I want it to say...

I'm talking about original old Greek...
not a "reader's 7th edition" etc...

I mean no disrespect...

(I'm glad you're atleast including the parenteses) That alone should alert you to something that wasn't in the previous manuscripts...

This is you at your cynical best. The Greek text used for the NIV is essentially the same as for the ASV, RSV, NRSV, ESV, NASB, NLT and other contemporary versions (except the KJV and NKJV which use the Textus Receptus)

So you have a version of the original Greek manuscripts from the first century???

I have provided you with a copy of the Greek text on which old and new English translations are based.

You say these words are not in the Greek text, 'Thus he declared all foods clean". They are clearly there.

Your comment about parentheses is irrelevant as it is an English translation device. There are no parentheses in the Greek text. Neither are there full stops, commas, semi-colons, colons, question marks, inverted commas, etc. There were not even spaces between words in the Greek text.

It's time that you got real with the text of Mark 7:19. The words which you declare are NOT in the text are CLEARLY IN THE GREEK TEXT.

Which Greek text are you using?

Oz

 

[tzadik]

This is you at your cynical best. The Greek text used for the NIV is essentially the same as for the ASV, RSV, NRSV, ESV, NASB, NLT and other contemporary versions (except the KJV and NKJV which use the Textus Receptus)

So you have a version of the original Greek manuscripts from the first century???

Ok. You’re right, I have no right to “discredit your version of the Greek text”. I apologize. Because there is no “original manuscript” it would be “my word against yours”---and that would be ridiculous. So again, my mistake.

I will try a different approach in explaining this text.

 

[tzadik]

It's time that you got real with the text of Mark 7:19. The words which you declare are NOT in the text are CLEARLY IN THE GREEK TEXT.

Which Greek text are you using?
Oz

“Thus He declared” is not in the Greek original (even of the UBS)

A literal translation of verse 19 is: “because it does not go into the heart, but into the colon, and into the latrine, purging all foods.”

Because the Greek syntax is not real smooth, some of the manuscripts show attempts by scribes to smooth out the sentence, and one actually changed it to read “he purified all foods”.

The word “declared” is in none of the Greek texts, and is clearly supplied by the English translators.

The obvious point of Yeshua’s words, as they stand in the Greek text is that foods that are eliminated have the possibility of making a person ritually unclean in the form of feces. Thus, not the food that goes in, but that which comes out, has the ability to make a person unclean.

This forms a perfect basis for Yeshua’s midrash (spiritual application) on the whole matter, turning it to them that sin, which renders the soul ‘unclean’ and defiles others as well, comes from within.

 

[OzSpen]

tzadik,

You are straining at a gnat. "Purging all foods" in English MEANS he "declared all food pure". I have studied Greek for too many year for you to try to fool me with that one.

Jesus has purified all foods. He has declared all foods pure/clean. That's the meaning of the Greek.

I find that you are using trickery when you used your tactic. I didn't fall for it. I find that your technique is to try to make the NT mean what your Messianic way wants it to say. Is that eisegesis in which you engage?

Oz

“Thus He declared” is not in the Greek original (even of the UBS)

A literal translation of verse 19 is: “because it does not go into the heart, but into the colon, and into the latrine, purging all foods.”

Because the Greek syntax is not real smooth, some of the manuscripts show attempts by scribes to smooth out the sentence, and one actually changed it to read “he purified all foods”.

The word “declared” is in none of the Greek texts, and is clearly supplied by the English translators.

The obvious point of Yeshua’s words, as they stand in the Greek text is that foods that are eliminated have the possibility of making a person ritually unclean in the form of feces. Thus, not the food that goes in, but that which comes out, has the ability to make a person unclean.

This forms a perfect basis for Yeshua’s midrash (spiritual application) on the whole matter, turning it to them that sin, which renders the soul ‘unclean’ and defiles others as well, comes from within.

 

[ChrisHolland619]

The Old Testament Law of Moses isn't applicable at all to us. Anyone who thinks so isn't aware of what the Law was and what purpose it served.

It served to point the people of Israel to the promised Messiah (Jesus Christ) and to make us realize that we cannot save ourselves.

When God saved Abraham, he did not save him because of his works of the Law. If you remember, Abraham was promised the Messiah some 400 years PRIOR to the Law being given to Moses and the people of Israel. So obviously this had no influence of his salvation.

No, Abraham was saved because he trusted in the promise (The Messiah) of God. Therefore, he was saved by trust of the promise, and not the law. (Genesis 15:6 - "And he believed in the Lord; and He counted it to him for righteousness.")

Galatians 3:23-25 says:

"But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up from the faith which should afterwards be revealed. Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith. But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster."

It cannot get more clear than that. The Law had a purpose, and that was to illuminate the fact that mankind was not perfect. It pointed us toward the Perfect Lamb of sacrifice (Jesus Christ), so that we might come to Him in FAITH and be saved in the promise of God to Abraham (A Messiah).

We have faith in what Christ has done, they trusted in what Christ would do. Just opposite sides of the cross. They trusted in the promised Messiah, just what He WOULD do, we have faith in what He HAS done.

We are no longer under a schoolmaster. We do what Christ said to do, which were moral laws towards man. That's how we live our life. We are under the law of grace and faith, not the schoolmaster Law of Moses.

 

[tzadik]

tzadik,

You are straining at a gnat. "Purging all foods" in English MEANS he "declared all food pure". I have studied Greek for too many year for you to try to fool me with that one.

Did you read the context of Mark 7 and Matthew 15? It has absolutely NOTHING to do with clean and unclean meats.

Rather everything to do with the man-made traditions of the Pharisees regarding clean and unclean hands.

The only way you can even “think about clean and unclean meats” is to not pay any attention to the context, and assume that the subject is clean and unclean meats.

 

[tzadik]

tzadik,

You are straining at a gnat. "Purging all foods" in English MEANS he "declared all food pure". I have studied Greek for too many year for you to try to fool me with that one.

But what's even more telling is that you are assuming that Messiah is doing the exact same thing He is rebuking the Pharisees of doing...
namely neglecting the commandment(s) of God, for the sake of their man-made traditions.

You are claiming that Messiah, right then and there is neglecting/cancelling out a commandment of God because of His tradition...

1. The Pharisees and some of the scribes gathered around Him when they had come from Jerusalem,
2. and had seen that some of His disciples were eating their bread with impure hands, that is, unwashed.
3. (For the Pharisees and all the Jews do not eat unless they carefully wash their hands, thus observing the traditions of the elders;
4. and when they come from the market place, they do not eat unless they cleanse themselves; and there are many other things which they have received in order to observe, such as the washing of cups and pitchers and copper pots.)
5. The Pharisees and the scribes *asked Him, "Why do Your disciples not walk according to the tradition of the elders, but eat their bread with impure hands?"
6. And He said to them, "Rightly did Isaiah prophesy of you hypocrites, as it is written: `THIS PEOPLE HONORS ME WITH THEIR LIPS,
BUT THEIR HEART IS FAR AWAY FROM ME.
7. `BUT IN VAIN DO THEY WORSHIP ME,
TEACHING AS DOCTRINES THE PRECEPTS OF MEN.'
8. "Neglecting the commandment of God, you hold to the tradition of men."

How does that line up with Matthew 5:18 and Luke 16:17...
Was He lying there?

 

[Johnnz]

Yes, Jesus did do that. But far more besides as set out pretty clearly in the NT.

John
NZ

 

[OzSpen]

The Old Testament Law of Moses isn't applicable at all to us. Anyone who thinks so isn't aware of what the Law was and what purpose it served.

It served to point the people of Israel to the promised Messiah (Jesus Christ) and to make us realize that we cannot save ourselves.

Chris,

It did more than that. It was a worldview that included the regulations for the running of the nation of Israel as well. Please don't make ALL of the OT Mosaic Law become a pointer to Christ. It is not. Take a read of the laws for the nation of Israel in Leviticus.

Oz

 

[ChrisHolland619]

Out of all I posted, biblical citations included, that is what you decide to quote?

And no it wasn't more. It was simple laws for obedience to get them to realize they need a savior.

 

[OzSpen]

tzadik,

I note your tactic. You ignored what I stated that Jesus declared all food clean - he purged all food - and you are off and running with what you want to say. You don't care about the meaning of the text that I posted to you.

We cannot get anywhere in a discussion when you want to push your own agenda and don't address the point of the Scripture we are discussing. Mark 7:19 states very clearly in the Greek NT that Jesus "declared all foods clean" as translated by the ESV. That's what "purging the food" means.

Oz

But what's even more telling is that you are assuming that Messiah is doing the exact same thing He is rebuking the Pharisees of doing...
namely neglecting the commandment(s) of God, for the sake of their man-made traditions.

You are claiming that Messiah, right then and there is neglecting/cancelling out a commandment of God because of His tradition...

1. The Pharisees and some of the scribes gathered around Him when they had come from Jerusalem,
2. and had seen that some of His disciples were eating their bread with impure hands, that is, unwashed.
3. (For the Pharisees and all the Jews do not eat unless they carefully wash their hands, thus observing the traditions of the elders;
4. and when they come from the market place, they do not eat unless they cleanse themselves; and there are many other things which they have received in order to observe, such as the washing of cups and pitchers and copper pots.)
5. The Pharisees and the scribes *asked Him, "Why do Your disciples not walk according to the tradition of the elders, but eat their bread with impure hands?"
6. And He said to them, "Rightly did Isaiah prophesy of you hypocrites, as it is written: `THIS PEOPLE HONORS ME WITH THEIR LIPS,
BUT THEIR HEART IS FAR AWAY FROM ME.
7. `BUT IN VAIN DO THEY WORSHIP ME,
TEACHING AS DOCTRINES THE PRECEPTS OF MEN.'
8. "Neglecting the commandment of God, you hold to the tradition of men."

How does that line up with Matthew 5:18 and Luke 16:17...
Was He lying there?