Old Earth Geology Part 2 (The Grand Canyon)

[Job 33:6]

I enjoyed Old Earth Geology (Part 1)
Old Earth Geology

Old Earth Geology Part 1 was written as a challenge to young earthers. I requested some sort of feasible explanation from a young earth point of view for the geologic qualities seen in New York.

Young earthers were unable to explain the geologic features of New York. So, I decided to make another post, Part 2. And Part 1 is still open for discussion for anyone who would like to take on the challenge.

Part 2.

The East Kaibab Monocline and Butte Fault.

The Part 2 challenge for young earthers is simple. Explain how young earth flood geology can account for the sequence, offeset, and unconformities of the above diagram.

I suppose at a later time i could give the uniformitarian explanation.

But I would like to hear the young earthers explanation for the above diagram, and how such an area could form during a global flood.

Also, these are all paleozoic rocks by the way, they superpositionally predate the K-T boundary and the mesozoic.

 

[Job 33:6]

One interesting thing to add here also is that...the paleozoic layers actually dip toward the north, where progressively young rocks are exposed at the surface to the extent that mesozoic rocks are exposed in the north, and the Butte fault actually extends up into mississipian rock, northward.

 

[Tree of Life]

I enjoyed Old Earth Geology (Part 1)
Old Earth Geology

Old Earth Geology Part 1 was written as a challenge to young earthers. I requested some sort of feasible explanation from a young earth point of view for the geologic qualities seen in New York.

Young earthers were unable to explain the geologic features of New York. So, I decided to make another post, Part 2. And Part 1 is still open for discussion for anyone who would like to take on the challenge.

Part 2.

The East Kaibab Monocline and Butte Fault.
View attachment 213665

The Part 2 challenge for young earthers is simple. Explain how young earth flood geology can account for the sequence, offeset, and unconformities of the above diagram.

I suppose at a later time i could give the uniformitarian explanation.

But I would like to hear the young earthers explanation for the above diagram, and how such an area could form during a global flood.

Also, these are all paleozoic rocks by the way, they superpositionally predate the K-T boundary and the mesozoic.

Why is a flood necessary to explain this phenomenon in a YEC framework?

 

[Job 33:6]

Why is a flood necessary to explain this phenomenon in a YEC framework?

Perhaps you should ask them.

 

[Job 33:6]

@omega2xx

You were asking for evidence of an old earth in relation to the grand canyon, here ya go buddy. Stay tuned...

 

[omega2xx]

Why is a flood necessary to explain this phenomenon in a YEC framework?

It isn't.

 

[omega2xx]

One interesting thing to add here also is that...the paleozoic layers actually dip toward the north, where progressively young rocks are exposed at the surface to the extent that mesozoic rocks are exposed in the north, and the Butte fault actually extends up into mississipian rock, northward.

View attachment 213670

The pictures are beautiful. To bad pictures are not evidence.

 

[Job 33:6]

The pictures are beautiful. To bad pictures are not evidence.

First we will start by seeing if anyone can explain the origins through a young earth paradigm and once we pass that stage, I'll explain through an old earth paradigm.

I'm already geared up and ready to go, just seeing if there are any takers for the challenge.

 

[Job 33:6]

The pictures are beautiful. To bad pictures are not evidence.

What gives credence to the old earth paradigm is the number of operations necessary for geologic formations to form.

Form example, it might take X amount of time for a layer to be deposited, and c amount of time for another layer to deposit on top of that. Then X amount of time for the layers to solidify, and x amount of time for layers to be offset, and X amount of time for the top to be eroded, and X amount of time for the next layer to be deposited, folded, fractures, offset etc.

Before you know it, you end up in a situation where it just doesn't seem feasible that a flood could do it, nor feasible that it could occur in 1 year.

So the challenge begins first by requesting an explanation. And for those who are able to think in an abstract way to reconstruct the events in their minds, then remains question of when and where the flood fits in, and how quickly or slowly it all unfolded.

And with that said, now we sit and wait for responses.

 

[omega2xx]

What gives credence to the old earth paradigm is the number of operations necessary for geologic formations to form.

Form example, it might take X amount of time for a layer to be deposited, and c amount of time for another layer to deposit on top of that. Then X amount of time for the layers to solidify, and x amount of time for layers to be offset, and X amount of time for the top to be eroded, and X amount of time for the next layer to be deposited, folded, fractures, offset etc.

Before you know it, you end up in a situation where it just doesn't seem feasible that a flood could do it, nor feasible that it could occur in 1 year.

So the challenge begins first by requesting an explanation. And for those who are able to think in an abstract way to reconstruct the events in their minds, then remains question of when and where the flood fits in, and how quickly or slowly it all unfolded.

And with that said, now we sit and wait for responses.

First since the Bile doe not give the age of the earth, its age is not important to me.

Second if God say there was a flood, then unless you have evidence there was not one, there was one.

Third, there are Christian geologist who explain what you do not seem to understand. Try reading "The Genesis Flood," by Henry Morris.

Do you really believe the first verse in the Bible?

 

[omega2xx]

First we will start by seeing if anyone can explain the origins through a young earth paradigm and once we pass that stage, I'll explain through an old earth paradigm.

I'm already geared up and ready to go, just seeing if there are any takers for the challenge.

What you have presented so far is not evidence for he earth being 4.5 billion years old any more the YEC can validate 6000 years for it age.

Work on this. The rate of lunar dust falling on the moon can be estimated. If the universe is 4.5 billion years old, the moon would have several feet of lunar dust. When men landed on it, it only had a few inches.

 

[Job 33:6]

@mindlight

Would you like to take an attempt at explaining the original post diagram through the paradigm of a global flood young earth creationist?

 

[Job 33:6]

What you have presented so far is not evidence for he earth being 4.5 billion years old any more the YEC can validate 6000 years for it age.

Work on this. The rate of lunar dust falling on the moon can be estimated. If the universe is 4.5 billion years old, the moon would have several feet of lunar dust. When men landed on it, it only had a few inches.

Im just waiting to see if any young earthers can explain the geologic features of the original post diagram, using a global flood, in the context of a young earth. You are free to take a stab at it if you would like.

 

[mindlight]

@mindlight

Would you like to take an attempt at explaining the original post diagram through the paradigm of a global flood young earth creationist?

As I said in the Earth is Young I do not think there is an accessible explanation for this and I can quite happily live with that. The facts here are bent and fractured rocks as shown in your pretty diagram. How you organise that in your head depends on a process so laden with assumptions and an unproven audit trail so long that certainty about anything here seems dishonest. But I am quite happily suggesting that the catastrophic flood event and aftermath is the reason for the configuration and leaving the details blank.

<<<<<
In short no one can know including professional geologists and a reasonable sounding explanation at this distance is still a guess. But a global flood is as good an explanation as any other here.

A global flood as described from scripture included an opening of the deep , a massive rise in flood waters. This would have caused major tectonic plate movement, earthquakes, tsunamis, major currents, with variables of superheated water and cold water, highly acidic water in places, normal in others. In those circumstances there are a whole bunch of ways that rocks in one place would be soft, others hardened, some vulnerable to fractures, whole layers of pre-hardened rock swept along like trays over sand, land raised land pushed down, rocks fractured and moulded by forces unexperienced before or since. In the same location a whole range of currents, forces and activities etc could be operating simultaneously or over a period of a year.>>>

 

[Job 33:6]

I enjoyed Old Earth Geology (Part 1)
Old Earth Geology

Old Earth Geology Part 1 was written as a challenge to young earthers. I requested some sort of feasible explanation from a young earth point of view for the geologic qualities seen in New York.

Young earthers were unable to explain the geologic features of New York. So, I decided to make another post, Part 2. And Part 1 is still open for discussion for anyone who would like to take on the challenge.

Part 2.

The East Kaibab Monocline and Butte Fault.
View attachment 213665

The Part 2 challenge for young earthers is simple. Explain how young earth flood geology can account for the sequence, offeset, and unconformities of the above diagram.

I suppose at a later time i could give the uniformitarian explanation.

But I would like to hear the young earthers explanation for the above diagram, and how such an area could form during a global flood.

Also, these are all paleozoic rocks by the way, they superpositionally predate the K-T boundary and the mesozoic.

From an old earth perspective, the stages of development at the east kaibab fault are pretty straight forward.

Both old and young earth creationists recognize an order of operations, involving deposition of layers on the bottom, prior to layers on the top. And with that...

To begin, we have deposition/formation of
PCb
PCh
PCs
PCd
PCc
PCn
PCg and
PCk
These were hardened, solidified strata, and the eastern side of the diagram was uplifted relative to the left side. These layers were also offset, and at some degree, were tilted toward the east.
The top layers were eroded away, evenly, down to PCg on the right side.
Then we have the deposition and formation of
Cl
Cba
Cm
Otb
Mr
Ps
Pe
Ph
Pc
Pt and
Pk
Trmo
Trc
Tm
Jk
Jn
Jc
Je
Kd
Kt
Ksc
Kw
The right side was then uplifted during compressional faulting. Faults propogated up to the cretaceous. All of these layers must have been hardened and solidified for the occurrence and development of propogating reverse slip faulting, which brought the east side of the fault back down (but not as far as it was previously uplifted) and also resulted in the formation of synthetic and antithetic faulting beyond the primary fault.

This kind of faulting doesnt occur in soft layers of wet or saturated flood sediments, this type of fracturing occurs in solid rock. These rocks, just as those previously faulted, were hardened, solidified, rocks. Not mushy, quick deposited, flood mush.

Then you have deposition of Kk.

All the while, during this recent phase of uplift, you have extensive erosion and deposition caused by uplifted streams and rivers across the region of the grand canyon and beyond.

This is your relative dating order of operations for the diagram in the original post. This is already something that is far beyond the capabilities of a global flood or a young earth to account for. And, this is without even discussing the qualities of each of the above listed formations, things like what they are made of, and what fossils are present within them.

And people seem to somehow believe that a flood did this, or that it happened in 1 year.

And all of this happened, superpositionally before the K-T extinction. There are dinosaur tracks, dinosaur nests, ya know, there is evidence that dinosaurs lived and walked and did dinosaur things throughout these layers.

So, I would ask anyone, where does a global flood that resulted in the extinction of the above mentioned dinosaurs, fit into this picture?

 

[Job 33:6]

As I said in the Earth is Young I do not think there is an accessible explanation for this and I can quite happily live with that. The facts here are bent and fractured rocks as shown in your pretty diagram. How you organise that in your head depends on a process so laden with assumptions and an unproven audit trail so long that certainty about anything here seems dishonest. But I am quite happily suggesting that the catastrophic flood event and aftermath is the reason for the configuration and leaving the details blank.

what assumptions am I using? Superposition? Lateral continuity? Cross cutting relations?

 

[Job 33:6]

Images for reference.

 

[mindlight]

Right so you want me to lawyer up and explain how the facts fit a completely different story. I am just making this up, trusting the actual facts you provided and then disagreeing with you on timescales for all the stuff that happened cause there is evidence that this can happen rapidly in a catastrophic framework. So given this intent you have the below story to go with your sequence:

1) Layer deposited PcB ---> PcK - hardened and solidified : our point of disagreement so far is probably how long it took
2) Local erosion of PcK down to PcG and some tilting towards East : so why cannot a global flood have cut the top of one of the deposited layers with a vicious local current or collisions of some sort - again I think this would have occurred rapidly and you are probably attributing a greater amount of time. Sounds also like some seismic activity again no surprise in the turbulent conditions of a flood. Seismic conditions could well have included superheated waters and pressure waves accelerating local rock hardening but leaving others softer and more pliable.
3) Layers deposited Cl ----> Kw and hardened, footprints of dinosaurs found in the layers : Again how long this took is probably the biggest disagreement and what were the forces at play in hardening the rock e.g. compression or heat or a combination. Dinosaur footprints or mud shoes that broke loose and were deposited elsewhere in the flood conditions?
4) Uplift event , rocks bend and fracture and some slip back- attributed to compressional faulting: again sounds like a seismic event. But in this local scenario may rule out bending cause of soft rocks
5) Formation of KK - accompanied by major water flow erosion and deposition across uplifted area and beyond: suppose the issue here is how hard rocks get eroded by water erosion.
6) KT Event _ dust layer from asteroid strike that could have been before 1) finally then settles on top of the other stuff.

So really with a little time, catastrophic compression, currents, seismic events, asteroid strikes etc all possible in a single year.

 

[Job 33:6]

Right so you want me to lawyer up and explain how the facts fit a completely different story. I am just making this up, trusting the actual facts you provided and then disagreeing with you on timescales for all the stuff that happened cause there is evidence that this can happen rapidly in a catastrophic framework. So given this intent you have the below story to go with your sequence:

1) Layer deposited PcB ---> PcK - hardened and solidified : our point of disagreement so far is probably how long it took
2) Local erosion of PcK down to PcG and some tilting towards East : so why cannot a global flood have cut the top of one of the deposited layers with a vicious local current or collisions of some sort - again I think this would have occurred rapidly and you are probably attributing a greater amount of time. Sounds also like some seismic activity again no surprise in the turbulent conditions of a flood. Seismic conditions could well have included superheated waters and pressure waves accelerating local rock hardening but leaving others softer and more pliable.
3) Layers deposited Cl ----> Kw and hardened, footprints of dinosaurs found in the layers : Again how long this took is probably the biggest disagreement and what were the forces at play in hardening the rock e.g. compression or heat or a combination. Dinosaur footprints or mud shoes that broke loose and were deposited elsewhere in the flood conditions?
4) Uplift event , rocks bend and fracture and some slip back- attributed to compressional faulting: again sounds like a seismic event. But in this local scenario may rule out bending cause of soft rocks
5) Formation of KK - accompanied by major water flow erosion and deposition across uplifted area and beyond: suppose the issue here is how hard rocks get eroded by water erosion.
6) KT Event _ dust layer from asteroid strike that could have been before 1) finally then settles on top of the other stuff.

So really with a little time, catastrophic compression, currents, seismic events, asteroid strikes etc all possible in a single year.

For the end of step 2, superheated waters and pressure causing accelerated rock hardening. Super heating and pressurizing sediment, will melt rock, but it wouldnt just cause rock to form. Unless it thoroughly melted like in the mantle of the planet, then cooled. This would involve the planet, at least temporarily turning into a ball of magma. I just dont think this is described in scripture during the flood. Also, i dont know that water can exist along side magma. We are talking about temperatures anywhere from 200-800 degrees celcius.

If the flood began between step 2 and step 3 (with waters and rock at temperatures averaging at 500 degrees celcius), I would not anticipate features of..."dinosaur life" in these layers. For example, if the flood was occuring at the onset of step 2, then i wouldn't expect dinosaurs to be building nests for example, or laying eggs.

If this flood is...ya know, destroying and melting and just blowing rock away, or literally washing mountains away, i just don't think we should see something like a bundle of eggs staying together.

And ya know, as we can see in the diagram,

The rocks from the cambrian up through the cretaceous (the C to the K), these rocks arent all blown up and thrown around or mixed or from some other region or area. These rocks are...in relative terms, neatly deposited. These are relatively speaking, neat layers of equal thickness. Not something we would expect in utter chaos.

This is the home of these rocks. They aren't from new york or anything. New york has its own layers that are unique to itself. So i don't know that i would support the idea of these eggs being hurled from a distant region by flood waters or anything like that.

These features are just regular every day features...tracks, nests, eggs, these dinosaurs were just living, doing regular dinosaur things. So yea...

Between steps 3 and 4, we have more hardening (if not already hard) rocks, up to the mid to late cretaceous. Unless more super heated magma slinging flood waters neatly laid them down and caused them to harden...hm.

Then we have a...earth quake of some sort with instantaneous offset. Ya know, if we were to...really propose that the second offset were to occur instantaneously, in the form of an earthquake, the cambrian rocks (the green colored rocks just above the precambrian), they would not be bent and wedged along the fault as they are. If an earthquake instantaneously pushed the western side up, that some 2000-3000 feet, instantaneously, or in a single instantaneous event, those rocks would be blasted into the atmosphere due to extraordinarily high pressures like none seen in our existence. But instead, they are bent, with normal every day fractures, antithetic and synthetic faults. Faults that occur under regular earthly pressures.

Here is the other thing too, so, the flood at this point is presumably over, as the fresh even post cambrian layres are hardened. Ok, and...earthquakes are a product of tectonic stresses (the faulting occurred parallel and in response to tectonic motion from the west, there is a plate boundary over there), so, the flood is over at this point, and now we have tectonic motion that uplifts the west, 2-3 thousand feet in the air, so, at the plate boundary, what would cause that instantaneous motion?

So, we are running into a number of challenges.

But we arent finished yet...

Step 5, the formation of Kk and accompanying highly erosive waters. ok, so yea, now we have all these hardened rocks from the mid cretaceous and below, that this water needs to erode through without annihilating the whole formation. I hope you can see how this is another challenge. As indicated in another post of mine,

We have large meanders. So, these erosive forces, or erosive waters that are coming in and eroding the pre solidified mid cretaceous and older strata. So, how much force does a river need to dig into thousands of feet of solid rock? Presumably an incredible amount of force.

And yet...not enough force, to beak out of a regular every day meandering direction (just as normal every day rivers flow). It's a physical impossibility.

But, we arent finished yet...

In Kk, we have more tracks, more nests, more dinosaurs, living, doing what dinosaurs do. Then...

"Kt- The dust settles on top". aka, after the flood is over for the 3rd or 4th time, life recovers and goes about living, and then an asteroid comes down and knocks out whatever survived the flood.

But we still arent finished yet, as we still, superpositionally, have all cenozoic rock, overlaying the Kt boundary, cenozoic rock including all the megafauna, whooly mammoths, sabertooths, mega sloths, all that good stuff, and all the recent ice ages.

And all this...some how...some...way. All of this happened.

You have to admit, the uniformitarian explanation, is far cleaner. No challenges of 500 degree celcius temperatures, no challenges of meandering flood waters that simultaneously are eroding thousands of feet of rock almost instantaneously, no question as to how dinosaurs appeared to comfortably live throughout cretaceous rocks.

 

[Job 33:6]

@omega2xx @mindlight

You two among others are free to challenge my explanation.

Alternatively, i would just propose that we all take a moment to try to fathom, how the above discussed events, all occurred so quickly, and via a global flood.