Old Earth Creationism

[BPPLEE]

As expected, the article doesn't address the question. What...a....surprise...

The article is about the firmament

 

[BPPLEE]

It's called me dome theory. There was a layer of water surrounding the atmosphere that shielded the earth from the harmful effects of the sun. Much of the water from the flood came from it when it was released as rain.

It was actually called the canopy model

 

[BPPLEE]

I asked you,

Can you name even one person who believes that a solid dome was at one time over the earth with windows or floodgates in it that God opened during the flood and who says it explains the long life spans?


The Hebrew Masoretic text of Genesis 1:6-8 expressly describes the creation of a flat earth covered with a dome that “separated the waters that were under the dome from the waters that were above the dome.”

1:6 ויאמר אלהים יהי רקיע בתוך המים ויהי מבדיל בין מים למים׃
1:7 ויעשׂ אלהים את־הרקיע ויבדל בין המים אשׁר מתחת לרקיע ובין המים אשׁר מעל לרקיע ויהי־כן׃
1:8 ויקרא אלהים לרקיע שׁמים ויהי־ערב ויהי־בקר יום שׁני׃

Likewise, the Septuagint,

Gen 1:6 Καὶ εἶπεν ὁ θεός Γενηθήτω στερέωμα ἐν μέσῳ τοῦ ὕδατος καὶ ἔστω διαχωρίζον ἀνὰ μέσον ὕδατος καὶ ὕδατος. καὶ ἐγένετο οὕτως.
Gen 1:7 καὶ ἐποίησεν ὁ θεὸς τὸ στερέωμα, καὶ διεχώρισεν ὁ θεὸς ἀνὰ μέσον τοῦ ὕδατος, ὃ ἦν ὑποκάτω τοῦ στερεώματος, καὶ ἀνὰ μέσον τοῦ ὕδατος τοῦ ἐπάνω τοῦ στερεώματος.
Gen 1:8 καὶ ἐκάλεσεν ὁ θεὸς τὸ στερέωμα οὐρανόν. καὶ εἶδεν ὁ θεὸς ὅτι καλόν. καὶ ἐγένετο ἑσπέρα καὶ ἐγένετο πρωί, ἡμέρα δευτέρα.

And the Latin Vulgate,

6. dixit quoque Deus fiat firmamentum in medio aquarum et dividat aquas ab aquis
7. et fecit Deus firmamentum divisitque aquas quae erant sub firmamento ab his quae erant super firmamentum et factum est ita
8. vocavitque Deus firmamentum caelum et factum est vespere et mane dies secundus

The Wycliffe Bible, being translated from the Latin Vulgate,

6 And God seide, The firmament be maad in the myddis of watris, and departe watrisfro watris.
7 And God made the firmament, and departide the watristhat weren vndurthe firmament fro these watris that weren on the firmament; and it was don so.
8 And God clepide the firmament, heuene. And the euentid and morwetid was maad, the secounde dai.

The word firmament comes to us from the Latin word firmamentum which literally express the concept “that which strengthens or supports”. In Genesis 1:6-8, the word expresses the concept of the strong, solid dome that supported the water above the dome. Few people today correctly understand the word firmament as it is used in the KJV, but mistakenly believe that it means the “atmosphere.”

Moreover, the Latin noun firmamentum is composed of the cognate verb “firmare” meaning to make firm or to harden plus the suffix “–mentum”—a Latin suffix that expresses the concrete result of the verb. In other words, the firmament in Genesis 1:6 is a strong, solid structure. It is NOT the earth’s atmosphere. Therefore, even the KJV agrees with the translation “dome.”

It's called the canopy model. I got the name wrong

 

[Job 33:6]

The article is about the firmament

I see that. It doesn't address the questions of if the firmament were made of water, how it would stay up in the sky and what it would mean if windows in the firmament closed and restrained flood waters from falling.

 

[BPPLEE]

I see that. It doesn't address the questions of if the firmament were made of water, how it would stay up in the sky and what it would mean if windows in the firmament closed and restrained flood waters from falling.

I think windows opening or closing are figures of speech

 

[Job 33:6]

I think windows opening or closing are figures of speech

The author of the article interestingly enough seems to be confused by the idea that the stars were placed in the firmament. He suggests the addition of a space between the dry land and the firmament, rather than understanding the idea that thumb tacks can be in a cork board while still being visible in front of the board.

Otherwise he doesn't really offer any counter to the flat earth view aside from "we don't know what Moses believed".

Well that's not much of a counter.

 

[Rachel20]

But the plants were created on the third day. How could they survive with no sunlight for extremely long periods of time?

But plants don't need sunlight - they can be grown with artificial light. In both the Big Bang, and the Genesis account, "light" was the first thing that existed. Radiation is light.

 

[BPPLEE]

The author of the article interestingly enough seems to be confused by the idea that the stars were placed in the firmament. He suggests the addition of a space between the dry land and the firmament, rather than understanding the idea that thumb tacks can be in a cork board while still being visible in front of the board.

Otherwise he doesn't really offer any counter to the flat earth view aside from "we don't know what Moses believed".

Well that's not much of a counter.

Don't you think things had to be explained to people in terms that they understood? If God would've got into concepts of a round earth and other planets and gravity no one would've been ready for that

 

[Job 33:6]

Don't you think things had to be explained to people in terms that they understood? If God would've got into concepts of a round earth and other planets and gravity no one would've been ready for that

I agree. Ultimately, I think that for this reason, on the topic of whether or not the earth is old, we can't assume that God would have revealed things like the age of the earth which could very well have been beyond comprehension in that time of history.

And so when reading Genesis, it's hard to justify the idea that modern scientific information is encompassed within it.

Ie, YECism results from an incorrect reading of scripture.

 

[BNR32FAN]

Male and female souls were created out from nothing "bara."
Its the soul that was created in God's image.

Male and female souls created that needed bodies to live in the material world. That took place in Genesis 2.

The words created and made are the same thing, they have the same meaning but if you believe these have different meanings then Genesis 1:26 says that God “made” man and woman on the 6th day not “created” which is the same as Genesis 2 which also says God “made” man and woman. So He didn’t “create” them on the 6th day then made their bodies on a different day. This proves that the creation account in Genesis 2 is the same creation account in Genesis 1.

 

[GenemZ]

I asked you,

Can you name even one person who believes that a solid dome was at one time over the earth with windows or floodgates in it that God opened during the flood and who says it explains the long life spans?


The Hebrew Masoretic text of Genesis 1:6-8 expressly describes the creation of a flat earth covered with a dome that “separated the waters that were under the dome from the waters that were above the dome.”

1:6 ויאמר אלהים יהי רקיע בתוך המים ויהי מבדיל בין מים למים׃
1:7 ויעשׂ אלהים את־הרקיע ויבדל בין המים אשׁר מתחת לרקיע ובין המים אשׁר מעל לרקיע ויהי־כן׃
1:8 ויקרא אלהים לרקיע שׁמים ויהי־ערב ויהי־בקר יום שׁני׃

Likewise, the Septuagint,

Gen 1:6 Καὶ εἶπεν ὁ θεός Γενηθήτω στερέωμα ἐν μέσῳ τοῦ ὕδατος καὶ ἔστω διαχωρίζον ἀνὰ μέσον ὕδατος καὶ ὕδατος. καὶ ἐγένετο οὕτως.
Gen 1:7 καὶ ἐποίησεν ὁ θεὸς τὸ στερέωμα, καὶ διεχώρισεν ὁ θεὸς ἀνὰ μέσον τοῦ ὕδατος, ὃ ἦν ὑποκάτω τοῦ στερεώματος, καὶ ἀνὰ μέσον τοῦ ὕδατος τοῦ ἐπάνω τοῦ στερεώματος.
Gen 1:8 καὶ ἐκάλεσεν ὁ θεὸς τὸ στερέωμα οὐρανόν. καὶ εἶδεν ὁ θεὸς ὅτι καλόν. καὶ ἐγένετο ἑσπέρα καὶ ἐγένετο πρωί, ἡμέρα δευτέρα.

And the Latin Vulgate,

6. dixit quoque Deus fiat firmamentum in medio aquarum et dividat aquas ab aquis
7. et fecit Deus firmamentum divisitque aquas quae erant sub firmamento ab his quae erant super firmamentum et factum est ita
8. vocavitque Deus firmamentum caelum et factum est vespere et mane dies secundus

The Wycliffe Bible, being translated from the Latin Vulgate,

6 And God seide, The firmament be maad in the myddis of watris, and departe watrisfro watris.
7 And God made the firmament, and departide the watristhat weren vndurthe firmament fro these watris that weren on the firmament; and it was don so.
8 And God clepide the firmament, heuene. And the euentid and morwetid was maad, the secounde dai.

The word firmament comes to us from the Latin word firmamentum which literally express the concept “that which strengthens or supports”. In Genesis 1:6-8, the word expresses the concept of the strong, solid dome that supported the water above the dome. Few people today correctly understand the word firmament as it is used in the KJV, but mistakenly believe that it means the “atmosphere.”

Moreover, the Latin noun firmamentum is composed of the cognate verb “firmare” meaning to make firm or to harden plus the suffix “–mentum”—a Latin suffix that expresses the concrete result of the verb. In other words, the firmament in Genesis 1:6 is a strong, solid structure. It is NOT the earth’s atmosphere. Therefore, even the KJV agrees with the translation “dome.”

The firmament does protect like a wall. It causes unprotected spacecraft space debris to burn up when entering our atmosphere. Remember Teflon being invented to withstand the heat? Heat = friction.

If you wish and persist in being always such a literalist? Remember.. Jesus said you will need to pluck your eye out.

This has become an argument for argument's sake, for those who have a need to argue.

 

[GenemZ]

The words created and made are the same thing, they have the same meaning but if you believe these have different meanings then Genesis 1:26 says that God “made” man and woman on the 6th day not “created” which is the same as Genesis 2 which also says God “made” man and woman. So He didn’t “create” them on the 6th day then made their bodies on a different day. This proves that the creation account in Genesis 2 is the same creation account in Genesis 1.

Made- Asah = in this case to make something by designing it. God laid out his Divine blueprint for man in Genesis 1:26.

Create- Bara = to actually produce what was designed by producing it "out from nothing."

The body of Adam was 'molded and formed' jatsar out from created-Bara materials that God created earlier in Genesis 1:1 ...

In Genesis Two, Adam was not being created. It was a work of art by the Lord who molded the lifeless body out from the elements of the earth.

Adam's body was for the male soul that God had created in Genesis 1:27. The body was not created 'out from nothing' like his soul was, but the body was molded and formed out from the elements of the earth. The very earth that was said to have been created earlier by God (trinity) in Genesis 1:1.

 

[BPPLEE]

I agree. Ultimately, I think that for this reason, on the topic of whether or not the earth is old, we can't assume that God would have revealed things like the age of the earth which could very well have been beyond comprehension in that time of history.

And so when reading Genesis, it's hard to justify the idea that modern scientific information is encompassed within it.

Ie, YECism results from an incorrect reading of scripture.

I'm not a YEC but I don't dispute them. I simply don't know how old the earth is and I'm skeptical that anyone actually does

 

[BPPLEE]

The firmament does protect like a wall. It causes unprotected spacecraft space debris to burn up when entering our atmosphere. Remember Teflon being invented to withstand the heat? Heat = friction.

If you wish and persist in being always such a literalist? Remember.. Jesus said you will need to pluck your eye out.

This has become an argument for argument's sake, for those who have a need to argue.

 

[BPPLEE]

The firmament does protect like a wall. It causes unprotected spacecraft space debris to burn up when entering our atmosphere. Remember Teflon being invented to withstand the heat? Heat = friction.

If you wish and persist in being always such a literalist? Remember.. Jesus said you will need to pluck your eye out.

This has become an argument for argument's sake, for those who have a need to argue.

Oops that last post was directed at someone else. Apologies

 

[BPPLEE]

The firmament does protect like a wall. It causes unprotected spacecraft space debris to burn up when entering our atmosphere. Remember Teflon being invented to withstand the heat? Heat = friction.

If you wish and persist in being always such a literalist? Remember.. Jesus said you will need to pluck your eye out.

This has become an argument for argument's sake, for those who have a need to argue.

I agree. I was just talking about the canopy model I wasn't advocating for it. I'm always open to the possibility that I am wrong

 

[PrincetonGuy]

I think windows opening or closing are figures of speech

What linguistic evidence do you have to support what you think?

The only reason to believe that “the windows of the heavens” in Gen. 7:11 were figures of speech is that a literal interpretation requires that the firmament written of in Gen. 1:6-8 is a solid structure.

 

[BPPLEE]

What linguistic evidence do you have to support what you think?

The only reason to believe that “the windows of the heavens” in Gen. 7:11 were figures of speech is that a literal interpretation requires that the firmament written of in Gen. 1:6-8 is a solid structure.

Like someone else said this has become an argument for those who just have a need to argue. I'm always open to the possibility that I am wrong. Don't know about you. But when God met with Moses face to face was that a figure of speech? A few verses later God says no one can see my face and live

 

[PrincetonGuy]

You'll have to ask someone else about that. As for the firmament see this article
The Firmament: What Did God Create on Day 2?

For readers who are not familiar with Answers in Genesis and their habitual dishonesty, this article is shockingly dishonest! I do not have the time to bring all of the examples out into the light, so I will elucidate a typical example.

Writing of Claus Westermann’ three-volume commentary on the Hebrew text of Genesis, the article says,

In his translation of all of Genesis 1, this prominent liberal, German scholar translates the three raqiya‘ phrases in 1:14–17 as “in the vault of the heavens.”​

However, in Genesis 1:6-7, Westermann translates the word raqiya‘ as “solid vault’ (page 76), and on page 117 he writes, “The Old Testament refers several times to the waters above the solid vault of heaven or to a heavenly ocean.” But, of course, the author of the article, Terry Mortenson, does not want you to know that.

 

[BPPLEE]

For readers who are not familiar with Answers in Genesis and their habitual dishonesty, this article is shockingly dishonest! I do not have the time to bring all of the examples out into the light, so I will elucidate a typical example.

Writing of Claus Westermann’ three-volume commentary on the Hebrew text of Genesis, the article says,

In his translation of all of Genesis 1, this prominent liberal, German scholar translates the three raqiya‘ phrases in 1:14–17 as “in the vault of the heavens.”​

However, in Genesis 1:6-7, Westermann translates the word raqiya‘ as “solid vault’ (page 76), and on page 117 he writes, “The Old Testament refers several times to the waters above the solid vault of heaven or to a heavenly ocean.” But, of course, the author of the article, Terry Mortenson, does not want you to know that.

A heavenly ocean? Sounds like the canopy model