Of course you know about the religious right...

[ozso]

'Just' another way? No. Don't jump to conclusions. I'll ask the question again:

So if the Duke, for example, was found to enjoy wearing frilly dresses and silk scarves and makeup in the privacy of his own home, then I wouldn't have a problem with it. Would that be a problem for you? Would it be feminine or masculine behaviour as you see it?

So now it seems you're saying gender is also defined by whether you and I have a problem with what someone wears.

If John Wayne wore a frilly dress a silk scarf and makeup, but still acted the same as he does when dressed as a cowboy, I don't see how that would change his gender. If he wore a frilly dress a silk scarf and makeup and acted like Mae West, that would be an affectation.

The examples you're giving for "gender" are examples of "style" "personality" and mainly "affectation".

 

[keith99]

So if someone feels comfortable wearing frilly shirts and silk scarves and makeup then do you think that person's personality aligns with what you consider to be male or female?

Depends on how good he is with a sword!

 

[BCP1928]

So now it seems you're saying gender is also defined by whether you and I have a problem with what someone wears.

No we are saying that the mannerism we are discussing is a part of gender, one of the easily observable parts.

If John Wayne wore a frilly dress a silk scarf and makeup, but still acted the same as he does when dressed as a cowboy, I don't see how that would change his gender. If he wore a frilly dress a silk scarf and makeup and acted like Mae West, that would be an affectation.

How do you know that. Maybe he was like that and the movie persona was an affectation.

The examples you're giving for "gender" are examples of "style" "personality" and mainly "affectation".

Again, because they are the easily observable parts.

 

[ozso]

No we are saying that the mannerism we are discussing is a part of gender, one of the easily observable parts.

Is this a hive mind thingy? So far Brad hasn't gone beyond what's known an style and personality.

How do you know that. Maybe he was like that and the movie persona was an affectation.

My thoughts all along.

Again, because they are the easily observable parts.

No going any deeper than that eh?

 

[BCP1928]

Is this a hive mind thingy? So far Brad hasn't gone beyond what's known an style and personality.

My thoughts all along.

No going any deeper than that eh?

Not till you catch up

 

[ozso]

Not till you catch up

Cop-out.

What's being said basically is if a person dresses up like a cat and acts like a cat, then they're a cat and should be regarded as such. That's what the multi-gender trend comes down to. People either pretending to be something they're not. Often some made up thing that doesn't really exist to be unique. Or people who actually think they're something they're not. And the idea is everyone is supposed to go along with the affectation and or delusion. People try to explain it in a way that avoids what it really is, which usually comes off as ham-fisted and full of holes.

 

[Bradskii]

So now it seems you're saying gender is also defined by whether you and I have a problem with what someone wears.

You're jumping to conclusions. You should stop.

If John Wayne wore a frilly dress a silk scarf and makeup, but still acted the same as he does when dressed as a cowboy, I don't see how that would change his gender.

People dress in private in ways that are not normally associated with what we expect because...we don't expect it. Hey, the Duke is a macho sort of guy! Why would he dress effeminately!

But you do know that some men prefer that which we consider to be associated with women. They prefer more feminine things. And some women prefer more masculine things. If the Duke enjoyed feminine things like dresses and makeup then do you think he'd care if people knew? Or would he hide it?

I'll save you the trouble. He'd hide it. He had an 'image' to uphold. Just like Rock Hudson did. His job depended on it. Wouldn't it be terrible for the man if he was outed. Heck, Wayne isn't macho at all. He was just pretending. He's actually effeminate!

See a problem there?

 

[A2SG]

Vanity of Vanities!
"I want to look pretty" Nose Jobs
"I want to look young " Face Lifts
"I want to look like a different skin color" Tattoo
"I want to look like Marilyn Monroe" Gender surgery
" I want to look like a Hunky Guy" Gender surgery

It is Cosmetic Surgery
All about "looking" not about being.
What you "be" is what you Is.

If you want to judge people, that's your business. But you don't get to define who or what another person is. They only get to do that themselves.

You only get to define yourself.

-- A2SG, and they don't have to give a damn whether you think they're vain or not....

 

[A2SG]

A little bit of both. But are you also saying "gender" means "personality"?

You keep conflating these two terms. They don't mean the same thing.

Personality refers to the whole of who you are, who and what you identify as, and how you choose to express that. Gender refers to that part of your personality that expresses "male" or "female" within your culture or society. It's part of your personality, not all of it.

-- A2SG, if you still don't get it...maybe let us know exactly what's confusing you about this....

 

[Occams Barber]

A little bit of both. But are you also saying "gender" means "personality"?

This might help:

Gender refers to the characteristics of women, men, girls and boys that are socially constructed. This includes norms, behaviours and roles associated with being a woman, man, girl or boy, as well as relationships with each other. As a social construct, gender varies from society to society and can change over time.​

​

Gender and health

Gender and health

www.who.int

OB

 

[rjs330]

No you don't get it per usual. You were describing personality traits.

I've had that argument before with the gender believers. They really struggle with the idea that all they are doing is referring to an individuals personality not a gender. Because gender is ALWAYS a reference to biological sex.

 

[rjs330]

This might help:

Gender refers to the characteristics of women, men, girls and boys that are socially constructed. This includes norms, behaviours and roles associated with being a woman, man, girl or boy, as well as relationships with each other. As a social construct, gender varies from society to society and can change over time.​

​

Gender and health

Gender and health

www.who.int

OB

I other words sexual norms, sexual behaviors, sexual roles. Gender is the same things as sex.

 

[ozso]

You're jumping to conclusions. You should stop.

People dress in private in ways that are not normally associated with what we expect because...we don't expect it. Hey, the Duke is a macho sort of guy! Why would he dress effeminately!

But you do know that some men prefer that which we consider to be associated with women. They prefer more feminine things. And some women prefer more masculine things. If the Duke enjoyed feminine things like dresses and makeup then do you think he'd care if people knew? Or would he hide it?

I'll save you the trouble. He'd hide it. He had an 'image' to uphold. Just like Rock Hudson did. His job depended on it. Wouldn't it be terrible for the man if he was outed. Heck, Wayne isn't macho at all. He was just pretending. He's actually effeminate!

See a problem here?

Sounds now like all of what you've been saying is about being in the closet.

 

[Occams Barber]

I other words sexual norms, sexual behaviors, sexual roles. Gender is the same things as sex.

No.

Sex refers to a physical state. Gender is more of a behavioural thing.

Definition of 'sex':

the physical state of being either male, female, or intersex:​

• What sex is your cat?
• Some tests enable you to find out the sex of your baby before it's born.
• It's illegal to discriminate against people on the basis of (their) sex.
• She accused her employer of sex discrimination (= of treating her unfairly because she was a woman).

sex

1. the physical state of being either male, female, or intersex: 2. all males…

dictionary.cambridge.org

 

[ozso]

I've had that argument before with the gender believers. They really struggle with the idea that all they are doing is referring to an individuals personality not a gender. Because gender is ALWAYS a reference to biological sex.

Yep the term gender was used to supplant the word sex as a designation, to avoid confusion, since sex also refers to sexual intercource.

 

[Occams Barber]

Yep the term gender was used to supplant the word sex as a designation, to avoid confusion, since sex also refers to sexual intercource.

The Dictionary just rang - you're fired.

OB

 

[A2SG]

Yep the term gender was used to supplant the word sex as a designation, to avoid confusion, since sex also refers to sexual intercource.

And now it's come to mean identity rather than biology. Since "sex" is already available to define biology, and we've decided it's okay to use the word without giggling like adolescents.

-- A2SG, words and their usage change over time....that's how language works....

 

[ozso]

This might help:

Gender refers to the characteristics of women, men, girls and boys that are socially constructed. This includes norms, behaviours and roles associated with being a woman, man, girl or boy, as well as relationships with each other. As a social construct, gender varies from society to society and can change over time.​

​

Gender and health

Gender and health

www.who.int

OB

I've read that nouveau gobbledygook before. It doesn't jive with the bulk of overall human history where "gender roles" have been mostly consistent for millennia. And significant deviations have been anomalies. One of the best known anomalies is called gender dysphoria. A lot of the rest in advanced societies has just been purposely going against the grain.

 

[ozso]

The Dictionary just rang - you're fired.

OB

I'm talking about the original term and intent, not what it was changed into. The original meaning still survives in "gender reveal" parties.

 

[rjs330]

No.

Sex refers to a physical state. Gender is more of a behavioural thing.

Definition of 'sex':

the physical state of being either male, female, or intersex:​

• What sex is your cat?
• Some tests enable you to find out the sex of your baby before it's born.
• It's illegal to discriminate against people on the basis of (their) sex.
• She accused her employer of sex discrimination (= of treating her unfairly because she was a woman).

sex

1. the physical state of being either male, female, or intersex: 2. all males…

dictionary.cambridge.org

Yes and every gender role, norm or behavior is the same thing as the physical state to which it is assigned. It's the same thing. Sex and gender are the same thing. You can't have a gender role, norm or behavior that is not associated sex as well. There is no such thing as gender outside of sex.