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Discussion in 'Non-denominational' started by Extirpated Wildlife, Oct 17, 2002.

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  1. SpiritPsalmist

    SpiritPsalmist Heavy lean toward Messianic Supporter

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    Thanks Sunstone.  As we can see all throughout the Bible there is refference to good fear and bad fear.

    It is good if your in an airplane to have a fear of jumping from it while it is in the air. . .otherwise one might do something really stupid.

    It is good to have fear (reverence and awe) of the Lord, because it brings about obedience. . .otherwise, we would not take His sacrifice seriously and we would live really stupid.

    All of us must overcome fear that keeps us from doing what we are called to do.  Such as when I first started singing in front of people, I had to overcome the fear.  Otherwise I would not be where I am today.  It did not mean that God was not with me. 

    Moving out in the gifts can be frightening.  And there should be some fear, so as not to haphazzerdly step out, not caring if you do it correct or not.  Not caring if the words coming out of your mouth is scriptural.  We must be careful to not add more than what God is saying or doing.  

    Annias and Saphira had no fear of God.  They seemed to have the same lazy attitude that many christians today have.   Otherwise they would not have lied to Him 

    If one tries to cast out a demon in a haphazzerd way they are in for a very big surprise.  

    With proper leadership and incouragement we learn to hear and obey.  And in stepping out, we learn and we overcome that fear.   

    Again, I will mention the 3 servants who were given talents.  The only one that was judged as wicked, was the one who did nothing because He was afraid.     

     
     
  2. rapturefish

    rapturefish Kingdom Citizen, Spiritual Nomad

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    Paul says that someone SHOULD interpret, not that someone WILL. God gives us free will; if someone is prompted by the Spirit to speak in a tongue, then yes I believe someone will be given the interpretation to interpret it - but that doesn't mean a person WILL DO IT whether they want to or not.

    I have seen it in action - someone gets up, goes to the front and speaks in a tongue. Then people wait. Someone else (usually someone else) gets up and gives an interpretation. But it's up to the interpreter's free will to get up there and say it. I've heard of cases when someone did speak and someone else withheld their interpretation because they didn't know what it was, being a new believer.

    People muff prophecy, healings, acts of faith, preaching, teaching and evangelism due to fear. We are human and when we allow fear to take over and don't offer it up to God then it muffs up what the Spirit may do. A step of faith is never easy.

    Try 1 Corinthians 13 and if you read my last post more carefully you will see why I believe there is truth in the hyperbole.

    Dear LouisBooth,

    I'm new to these forums, so please forgive me if I find your suggestion that I am "making up my own ideas" somewhat rough. Please, I think we can debate without the rough edges. That being said, I have read of accounts of both kinds of tongues that I have said exist.

    In John L. Sherill's "They Speak in Other Tongues" there was an account of a man who arrived in Azusa Street and a woman spoke in tongues. The man then came up and shared that he was a Jew, had come into town under another name and told no-one that he was there - yet he shared that the woman had just spoken in perfect Hebrew and that the message was a personal word to him that mentioned his real name as well as the name of his father ("x, son of so-and-so")!

    I have also read of Jackie Pullinger's ministry in Hong Kong and how she was given this private prayer language and she used it constantly when she was ministering to the drug addicts in the Kowloon Walled City. She said it was only after she began praying in that language that any real significant progress was made in bringing drug addicts to Jesus. Nearly everytime (I think all the time even) an addict gave his life to Jesus he would speak in tongues. This would be the kind of tongue that some people here have looked down upon as mere babbling. Thanks to that gifting , Jackie Pullinger's ministry made a significant impact on the Walled City such that whole swathes of the triads (= chinese mafia) were converted. You may read of her account in "Chasing the Dragon". All this from "mere babbling".

    Another account is about a man who had gone to minister in an area close to a tribe of cannibals. One day he erroneously sent out a man to do something and that person was captured by the cannibals so he went out to find him. He in turn was captured and questioned in the cannibal's language and it seemed that if he didn't put up a defense he was going to be in real trouble. Then, he felt a strong prompting to open his mouth and he spoke in a language he did not know before, and at the same time he was given the meaning of what he was saying. By the time he finished, the cannibals let them go. Since then he could no longer understand or speak in that language. It was a one-off thing for him, given as the Spirit determined.

    At the very least, I don't think you can argue for certain that there is only one kind of tongue. There is definitely scope in the bible for more than one kind. At best I can say it's open-ended, but I have already quoted from scripture where the possibility exists for more than one kind of tongue. And from all I've read about tongues from the bible and in church history and from my own experience I would stick with the belief that there is two.

    I believe we're all christians here, being Christian Forums and that we're talking about tongues here. It's difficult enough without us putting fellow brothers and sisters down. Can we be more civil and even-handed in our rebuttals?

    Paul was encouraging Timothy to fan into flame the gift of God given him and not be given over to timidity in pastoring a church. That fear is not of God, I agree. But that doesn't invalidate the gift Timothy had been given however. I don't think we're saying that someone was given an interpretation by the devil - it's just that someone is given an interpretation by God and for lack of faith have failed to use it because, maybe they think they'll look silly or whatever.

    Peter began to walk on the water - but due to fear he began to sink. Did it invalidate the faith or mircale he was operating in? No way!

    blessings,
     
  3. The Simple Plan

    The Simple Plan Sojourner

    356
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    one of the reasons that there is skepticism about this issue is because of the many "charlatans" who abuse such a gift to work people up. For example a fellow preacher I know was once in a church were the resident pastor told him to get people "worked" he should use a common phrase as evidence of tongues. He explained that the emphasis on the syllables should give the appearance of tongues and he told him to say "I want to buy a Hyundai" which came out as "awana buyer who yanda", he told me that out of intrugue (and to his shame) he tried it and he was amazed the response of tongues he got from the congregation. This is clearly a misuse and many discerning Christians see this as a working of the devil.

    The other argument is that not all people have this gift, but from my experience when I have been in an environement where everyone is in tongues it freaks me and I think does everyone have this gift? And if so, is this not listed as the least we should desire from Paul. It also concerns me that when there is this whole room of different speaking there is the blatant misuse of the text requiring an interpreter and if there isn't one then the speaker should remain silent.

    If God has gifted people with the gift of tongues, especially in public, let it be like in the apostolic church a means of edifiying those around, and not like the warning Paul gave to the Corinthian church, for one of show!! 

    Please read my post in the observant position and love I send it in.

    God is my strength :clap:

     
     
  4. LouisBooth

    LouisBooth Well-Known Member

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    "You did not answer my questions Louis. So again I ask, are you saying the presense of God was not in either of these situations?
    "

    *sigh* I answered you perfectly. Read the verse again.

    "Is that what you're saying?"

    Again, did you see the verse? no spirit of confusion, nor fear. Read it again.

    "The bible says fear is the begining of wisdom."

    *sigh* why is it you people never seem to understand the bible or actually study it. The fear you're refering to is NOT the beginning of wisdom. Reverant fear is. I think you need to learn greek or hebrew and stop assuming the bible was first written in english, it leads you down the wrong path many a time it seems.
     
  5. LouisBooth

    LouisBooth Well-Known Member

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    "Paul says that someone SHOULD interpret, not that someone WILL. "

    No, someone will because they will understand it perfectly like you understand when someone speaks english. Its not a should/can thing.

    "A step of faith is never easy."

    You've got to be joking! When you interpret a tongue, its like hearing someone speak in a language you understand. There is nothing to it. You are a translator and understand everything they are saying perfectly. There is nothing wonderous about it to the person translating other then probably why the other people can't understand it.

    "Try 1 Corinthians 13 and if you read my last post more carefully you will see why I believe there is truth in the hyperbole."

    I have, there are not 2 types of tongues, just one.


    "in Azusa Street "

    Have you ever studied what when on there? Its some of the most unbiblical stuff I have ever heard.


    "I have also read of Jackie Pullinger's ministry in Hong Kong and how she was given this private prayer language and she used it constantly when she was ministering to the drug addicts in the Kowloon Walled City. "

    So? that doesn't make it biblical. Experience doesn't override what God has told us in his word, sorry.


    "At the very least, I don't think you can argue for certain that there is only one kind of tongue. There "

    I can and do because that's what the bible says. I don't change the Word of God based on experiences, sorry.

    "Can we be more civil and even-handed in our rebuttals?"

    Thanks, I'm being perfectly civil. I'm telling you what God showed me when I first encountered several people in this forum and what they were doing to the word of God. They were changing it to what they wanted based on what they experience. That is what Christ expressly said not to do. I have thought long and hard about this issue and sought God's face on it. He gave me an answer and I'm passing it on. Don't dilute the word of God with your teachings of men. That's what I was saying there because thats what they are doing.

    "Did it invalidate the faith or mircale he was operating in? "

    yes, it did. In another situation the same thing happened. Also in this story Christ asked him directly, "WHY DID YOU DOUBT" ie, why did you not have faith. Its not by our faith God accomplishes things, its by his power and his will. he doesn't need us to put his plan into action. If we don't praise him like we are made to the very rocks will cry out to. God doesn't NEED us, but he does want us. Big difference.
     
  6. rapturefish

    rapturefish Kingdom Citizen, Spiritual Nomad

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    Dear Louis,



    I think we’re talking about two two slightly different things – I agree that someone will understand it, though not always perfectly. Sometimes they will only have a sense of it, other times they will hear it more clearly. My point was that though they may understand it, they will not necessarily speak out the interpretation if they of their own free will choose to withhold it from the assembly.

    No, in practice it doesn’t always work like that. Interpretation is not the same as translation. Sometimes people will get a clear interpretation, other times they will have a more general sense of it revealed to them. It’s up to the Spirit to determine how it will be interpreted.

    You may ask where that is in the bible – the fact is the bible is silent when it comes to the specifics of what it’s like to receive an interpretation. So the best guide is to see the fruit that comes from the giving of such an interpretation. If people are comforted and encouraged or convicted by the word and the word is in line with scripture then I think it’s of God.

    It may be better to agree to disagree on this one. You have not given me any response to this by way or argument, only a refusal to accept that tongues of men and of angels does not imply or mean two kinds of tongue.

    I will concede there is an element of open-endedness to this issue – some people will argue that these languages are always human languages and others argue that some are not. In the end though we cannot know all 6,xxx languages that have ever been on the face of this earth and find out. But I will not dogmatically argue that if you think there is one and I think there is two that I must be right and you must be wrong. But on the weight of what has been accounted I believe there is two since the bible allows for it.

    To illustrate - Have you ever heard a gifted preacher misuse a teaching gift? Have you ever heard a gifted intercessor misuse their prayers for personal motives? Yes. Does that mean the gift doesn’t exist in them? Absolutely not.

    A Christian with a gift who misuses it nevertheless still has the gift and the gift itself is valid. You might find it helpful not to throw out the baby with the bathwater on accounts of gifts in tongues. For whatever doctrinal disagreements you have with the movement, the fact is people for three years were coming to Jesus and becoming Christians.

    Louis, you’ve just passed off the greatest missionary effort ever brought to Hong Kong as unbiblical. Does that mean that if it’s not of God then it’s of Satan? Then does it mean these drug addicts who are off drugs cold turkey and excited about Jesus and sharing the gospel to the poor and the outcast must be Satanic? I’ve been to the churches that have risen from this ministry and seen and met some of these former drug addicts – they are Christians and if it’s of God I will not be so quick to criticize any gift of the Spirit that will do that.

    To be clear, I never said experience overrides the word, I’ve simply used experience to validate the word that already gives credence for it.

    Let me get this very clear and straight – I AM NOT CHANGING THE WORD OF GOD BASED ON EXPERIENCE. That you off-handedly make such a remark to a fellow brother in Christ when I have used scripture as the basis for what I believe is simply abrasive. At the end of the day, you must allow for the fact that I have made a valid, scriptural case and that this issue doesn’t necessarily necessitate an either-or answer.

    Louis, I have also thought long and hard about this, and have read the bible and looked through many books and have experienced things in my Christian walk that confirm what the bible already says. Does that mean I should accuse you of heresy? Should I accuse you of diluting the word of God? No! I will do NO such thing because this is not an important gospel issue and I believe the text can be open for us to agree to disagree. And I will never convince you if I begin to pass off your argument as such. And besides, you’re a fellow believer.

    Please, do not accuse me of diluting the word of God with the experiences of men, and do not accuse me of placing experience above the word of God. I love God, I love his word and his son Jesus and it hurts when a fellow Christian accuses me of such things. Besides, I come from a conservative Bible-based Baptist/Presbyterian background and I value what God says highly. But I believe God meant it when he said to love Him and love one another, especially fellow believers.

    That for at least a few seconds Peter was walking on the water in faith means he was walking in a miraculous way. That he doubted meant he gave way to fear. But that he did walk in faith before fear took over was a valid miracle. People hear an interpretation – they hold back due to fear. The interpretation is still valid, their fear wasn’t. It’s two forces at work – the Spirit of God, and the fear that is not of God but our human lack of faith.

    Louis, I respect your stance but in the heat of debate let’s not make light of the fact that there’s a real christian guy behind these posts.

    Blessings,
     
  7. rapturefish

    rapturefish Kingdom Citizen, Spiritual Nomad

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    Hang on, here's a scripture:

    1 Corinthians 13:9-10 "For we know in part and we prophesy in part, but when perfection comes, the imperfect disappears."

    We look forward to the day of perfection when Jesus returns.

    blessings,
     
  8. LouisBooth

    LouisBooth Well-Known Member

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    "I agree that someone will understand it, though not always perfectly. "

    I highly disagree with that. What do you think an interpreter does..LOL. he understands PERFECTLY.

    "So the best guide is to see the fruit that comes from the giving of such an interpretation"

    No, the bible isn't silent at all. You heard them as if they spoke your language, though they might not be. There is no mystery in tongues, its quite clearly explained in the bible.

    "You have not given me any response to this by way or argument"

    LOL, because the text doesn't say that. If you said, well here it says jesus was a murder and pointed to a section of text, I'd say the same thing. There is no need to reply to something the text clearly doesn't say.

    "You might find it helpful not to throw out the baby with the bathwater on accounts of gifts in tongues. "

    I dont, but someone that doesn't have the gift, or has preverted it, I'm not going to allow them to show me how to use it, because its wrong.

    "they are Christians and if it’s of God I will not be so quick to criticize any gift of the Spirit that will do that."

    God used the greatest evil event in the world to save us (Christ's death) I'm sure he could use the perversion of a gift to show people his message, that doesn't make that act right.


    "That you off-handedly make such a remark to a fellow brother in Christ when I have used scripture as the basis for what I believe is simply abrasive. "

    That's the problem, you're not using scripture. You're using YOUR WORDS. You said yourself it was silent on the matter, now you're saying its not. I think you are twisting things this way and that to make your OWN IDEAS valid without looking in the bible first.


    "And I will never convince you if I begin to pass off your argument as such. And besides, you’re a fellow believer."

    1. I haven't questioned your salvation, nor will I ever do so, for this is nonessential docterine
    2. will I question your teaching if it doesn't line up with scripture? You betya!! and that's exactly what I'm doing. Paul didn't let Peter dilute the word and neither will I let it be diluted. when i see something that doesn't mesh with scripture, I'll point it out as I have done here.

    "But that he did walk in faith before fear took over was a valid miracle"

    1. it was by God's power alone he walked on water, Peter's faith was already gone he doubted
    2. Fear isn't present where the spirit of God is, that's biblical.

    "let’s not make light of the fact that there’s a real christian guy behind these posts.
    "

    i don't I can say you've got an idea wrong, and the problem might be is you take it personal. If you're wrong correct it and move on, if you're not talk to God about it. I have not insulted you that I know of, I am just correcting a teaching of yours that is wrong according to the bible.
     
  9. rapturefish

    rapturefish Kingdom Citizen, Spiritual Nomad

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    1 Corinthians 13:8-10, 12 “Love never fails. But where there are prophecies, they will cease; where there are tongues, they will be stilled; where there is knowledge, it will pass. For we know in part and we prophesy in part, but when perfection comes, the imperfect disappears… now we see but a poor reflection as in a mirror; then we shall see face to face. Now I know in part,; then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known.”

    Let’s compare:

    Acts 2:4-12
    4 And they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit was giving them utterance.
    5 Now there were Jews living in Jerusalem, devout men from every nation under heaven.
    6 And when this sound occurred, the crowd came together, and were bewildered because each one of them was hearing them speak in his own language.
    7 They were amazed and astonished, saying, "Why, are not all these who are speaking Galileans?
    8 "And how is it that we each hear them in our own language to which we were born?
    9 "Parthians and Medes and Elamites, and residents of Mesopotamia, Judea and Cappadocia, Pontus and Asia,
    10 Phrygia and Pamphylia, Egypt and the districts of Libya around Cyrene, and visitors from Rome, both Jews and proselytes,
    11 Cretans and Arabs--we hear them in our own tongues speaking of the mighty deeds of God."
    12 And they all continued in amazement and great perplexity, saying to one another, "What does this mean?"

    For starters, there were about 120 disciples (Act 1:15) and they were all speaking in tongues. Different disciples speaking in different known languages that were understood by the Jews who were there. No interpreter required, because the gift of interpretation is a spiritual gift that none of those not-yet-repented Jews would have had yet.

    and 1 Corinthians 14:2,4

    2 For one who speaks in a tongue does not speak to men but to God; for no one understands, but in his spirit he speaks mysteries.
    4 One who speaks in a tongue edifies himself; but one who prophesies edifies the church.

    There’s your mysteries. The person is speaking not to men but to God. No-one understands. This is not the same human language that was understood without the need of an interpreter.

    References to more than one kind of tongue (note plurals):

    1 Corinthians 12:7,10
    7 But to each one is given the manifestation of the Spirit for the common good…
    10 and to another the effecting of miracles, and to another prophecy, and to another the distinguishing of spirits, to another various kinds of tongues, and to another the interpretation of tongues.

    And 1 Corinthians 13:1
    1 If I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, but do not have love, I have become a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal.

    ---
    "You have not given me any response to this by way or argument"

    LOL, because the text doesn't say that. If you said, well here it says jesus was a murder and pointed to a section of text, I'd say the same thing. There is no need to reply to something the text clearly doesn't say.

    I pointed out 1 Corinthians 13:1 last time and now here you say that the text doesn’t say that. Well here is 1 Corinthians 13:1 and 12:7-10. Where’s your scripture? If it doesn’t say that you didn’t care to enlighten me on what it DID say.

    ---
    The account I cited was totally consistent with Acts 2. A Jew was converted thanks to that tongue being spoken. That was not a perversion or an absence of the gift of tongues.

    ---
    1 Corinthians 12:1-3
    1 Now concerning spiritual gifts, brethren, I do not want you to be unaware.
    2 You know that when you were pagans, you were led astray to the mute idols, however you were led.
    3 Therefore I make known to you that no one speaking by the Spirit of God says, "Jesus is accursed"; and no one can say, "Jesus is Lord," except by the Holy Spirit.

    Whatever abuses there were in Azusa Street, there was evidence that it was of God (see my previous Azusa Street example). We are talking about the GIFT being valid, not their DOCTRINE. There is a difference. One can preach the wrong doctrine and yet clearly have a teaching gift. It doesn’t invalidate the gift, but it misrepresents it.

    ---
    I merely forgot about that verse – that I didn’t cite it first doesn’t mean I am twisting scripture (though it may appear so). There are enough verses to keep track of without forgetting the verse behind one thought in my head.

    ---
    Where’s your scripture? Don’t keep saying it’s biblical when you yourself do not take the trouble to cite scripture yourself. You haven’t quoted scripture very much in your responses even though you tell me to use scripture for mine. Lead by example if you’re going to exhort me to do something.

    Yes, I am sensitive. The main thrust of your responses is that it’s not biblical, that I am elevating experience above scripture and that I haven’t used scripture but my own words. The problem is, I have used scripture, I use experience to show the true standard in the word of God is confirmed by today’s accounts and not the other way around, and in saying I am not using scripture you yourself have not seen fit to lead by example.

    The thing is God has shown me much on this issue and I believe it. It’s different to your stance. I can see where people may build a case for your argument because I once took something similar, and now I see where I have built mine, on the word of God. I think you would agree, the Bible contains the word of God and the word of God is infallible.

    But when it comes to interpretation that’s where the difficulty comes in. When God began to show me more in this area of tongues I took a step in faith based on it and the gift was given. The fruit of it was a renewed desire to praise God and follow his Word. I am not more spiritual, more holy or anything else.

    On a side note, may I ask whether you have this gift? And what you mean if you say that you do? Just curious.

    Blessings,
     
  10. rapturefish

    rapturefish Kingdom Citizen, Spiritual Nomad

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    What I meant was interpretation of the Word of God. Our Exegesis and Hermeneutics will vary due to our humanness and the fact the bible doesn't reveal everything about EVERYTHING.

    blessings,
     
  11. SUNSTONE

    SUNSTONE Christian Warrior

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    In 1st or 2nd Peter it says that the Holy Spirit will guide you into all truths.

    1. One problem I see with misinterpts are when you see someone putting what God has for them, on someone else.

    Example
    An elder of the church telling a new believer that they need to be working the gifts more.

    I haven't seen this, but its just a small example.
    Should you use the gifts? Well that depends.
    Should you kill? Well that depends.

    I think that Ecclesiastes 3:1-8 says it all for these similar problems.

    2. The biggest problem is sin.
    Laziness will keep you from reading the word.
    Being worldly will put your heart in other places, rather than the word.
    And pride will trick you into thinking you know the word, so you don't study it, and whatever you read that doesn't fit your beliefs you will try to ignore it or misinterpret it.

    It says in the bible (I'm to lazy to look it up in concordance :p ) Study to show thyself approved.

    and

    [,let God be found true, though every man be found a liar, as it is written, "That Thou mightest be justified in Thy words, And mightest prevail when Thou art judged."] Romans 3:4

    By the way, I am at many times guilty of number 2 problem.
     
  12. rapturefish

    rapturefish Kingdom Citizen, Spiritual Nomad

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    Hi Sunstone,

    Yes I agree that the Holy Spirit will guide you in all truth, and especially when one is reading the scriptures we need the Holy Spirit to bring the word to light. Whenever we do anything our motives need to be held to the plumb line of the Word and our hearts examined to see our motives. Sometimes we are not aware of what our hearts are really motivated by - we think we may be doing the right thing but the heart is deceitful above all things, and God will speak to us about those things.

    I know people think differently on spiritual gifts. For me it was a case of accepting what I was taught about it in my church's denominational stance and due to the minimal emphasis on gifts I thought little of them too.

    But sometimes God puts something in our way that brings us to a re-examination of what we thought God said about certain things. And when we go back to the word and read it for what it is we find we have misled ourselves. This is not to say the word is now subbject to experience, but that our INTERPRETATION is subject to scrutiny in the light of contrary evidence and we go back to the word again to find out what it said it all along.

    That being said, on some issues the scriptures simply do not definitively give ONE conclusive answer. I think when it comes to how many kinds of tongues there are I see evidence for more than one kind. If someone thinks there is only one I will disagree, but if they also use scripture too and it shows that either is a possibility then fine, I'll agree to disagree.

    I do not agree when someone says there is only one kind of tongue and that if anyone says otherwise that is wrong because of the scripture I've cited and because history has found the cited scripture to hold true.

    Anyway, I think I won't waste any more time on this, it really is not that important compared to the gospel. And we all agree that THAT is important! [:D]

    blessings,
     
  13. Andrew

    Andrew Well-Known Member

    +21
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    quote:"This is clearly a misuse and many discerning Christians see this as a working of the devil. The other argument is that not all people have this gift, but from my experience when I have been in an environement where everyone is in tongues it freaks me and I think does everyone have this gift? And if so, is this not listed as the least we should desire from Paul. It also concerns me that when there is this whole room of different speaking there is the blatant misuse of the text requiring an interpreter and if there isn't one then the speaker should remain silent. "

    No offence but these are just typical worn-out"bad experiences" used as "excuses". The question you shld ask yourself is what God is telling you abt tongues. Don't let bad experiences and a few 'black' sheep rob you of the joy of speaking in a spiritual language. :)
     
  14. SUNSTONE

    SUNSTONE Christian Warrior

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    To comment on what Andrew said, when I went to church for the first year or so I felt weird about the people worshipping, and even more so about me doing it.
    Even today I can still feel restraints on me from worshipping the way I really want to. Like there are times that the songs call for the people to dance and alot of people do, but I feel held back, and I know its not from God.

    Speaking in tongues is a good thing, it has got me to pray so much more than I ever did before.
    You don't have to have something to pray for in your mind so you just let this babble flow and after awhile of you just sitting there in God's presence you think of something to pray for with your mind and you just do it without hesitation.
    I had a toothache/headache and I prayed for hours with tongues, it helped alot with the pain.

    Rapturefish you goto what I call a conservetive church. The problem is God isn't conservetive.
    He asks you to do things that alot of people are not going to like, and He tells you to fear Him and not man.
    But who knows maybe the conservetive church is like a stepping stone for beginners then they are to move on as they submit to God with there lives more and more.

    What I do know is what the spirit told me when Andrew Wormack explained so many questions about how the world really is, and what our part and Gods part, and even the devils part is in all of this.
    And it goes against "God is in total control, He allows plains to hit buildings" kind of thing.
     
  15. Andrew

    Andrew Well-Known Member

    +21
    Non-Denom
    Hey since most of us here do speak/pray in tongues, why not share our experience on how we received the gift? Ok I'll start....

    I was born into a Christian family and saved as a early teen. I rem i was giggling away in church that night with my friends (cos we were making fun of this transvestite who was crying away) but when the altar call was given i somehow became 'tame' n responded (n i think i was moved to tears).

    anyway, i worshipped in this methodist church most of my life. my christian walk was basically ups and downs and pretty carnal. didn't know much either abt the Bible, save the common preached stories. never heard abt healing, protection, gifts of the spirit, just 'Daily Bread' type of sermons.

    Then a few years back (i'm 34 now) i got my own spiritual revival (another long story cos something happened). I turned back to God and just went all the way (its been like that since). I developed a deep hunger to know more and just devoured books esp on the the gifts (i started with creation vs evolution though). i then came across some books on the baptism of the Holy Spirit, and found out that tongues had to do with that. Had heard of the Baptism of Fire but was next to clueless on this.

    I had heard of tongues b4 but always thot it was given to some select holy few who were up there with God. But I never despised tongues or criticised those who spoke in tongues as demonic or anything like that. I had never heard anyone speak in tongues though. The first time I did, i was awed, and wished I had the gift too. Point is that I was always very open to the idea -- so there was no baggage or obstacle to receiving. I also wanted it -- so I guess those 2 factors helped a lot, as opposed to someone who has something against tongues.

    Then i read Kenneth Hagin's little booklet on Receiving the Baptism of the Holy Spirit (as well as some other books). It was then that I found out that any believer could be (ought to be!) baptised with the Holy Spirit and speak in tongues as in Acts 2.

    And the best thing I found out was that one did not have to tarry, scream, fast or reach some state of special holiness to receive it! So naturally, I was totally excited!!!

    I didn't wait. I closed and locked my room door, turned off the lights and prayed to receive the Baptism of the Holy Spirit. Then i stepped out in faith and started to babble (like a fool!). I simply started saying "ba la ba ma" etc.

    To tell you the truth, I felt ABSOLUTELY TOTALLY stupid, dumb, ridiculous and embarrassed, even though no one was around and it was dark! if you asked me when was the most embarassing/dumb moment in my life, I wld say there and then *LOL. I wondered where I was going with this and reasoned that I was just making it all up.

    But thank God i perservered and continued in faith -- Ha! therein lies the simple 'secret' -- faith! Your mind and reasoning and rationalising will go against it totally but there's where simple faith comes in and goes against the human 'norm'. And that's what's still blocking most Christians from receiving today -- they just can't get past this mind/reasoning/rationalising part.

    Anyway, the rest is history, the tongues just flowed out after a while. I knew it when I realised the process was bypassing my brain. ie I didnt have to think of what to say or form words in my head. I could just speak out like a speeding bullet, its just automatic -- all those strange sounds pouring forth without having to think abt them.

    okay that basically it. anyone else care to share?

    God bless ;)
     
  16. SUNSTONE

    SUNSTONE Christian Warrior

    +205
    Non-Denom
    I just recieved it this year, from Andrew Wormack.
    He said if you didn't pray in tongues it was like fighting the devil with a water pistol.

    I really started to understand tongues the more I talked in it.
    I have said before that tongues is a type of momentum builder, it constantly keeps your thoughts tuned in to the fact that you are talking to God.

    I walked into a hospitol to pray for a little girl who was T-boned by a king cab truck, and she was in real bad shape. I was in a good mood going there but when I walked in the room, that all changed. I was intemidated by all the machines and how she looked.
    My thoughts weren't lined up with thankful, and expectant prayer that I was about to do.
    I prayed off and on trying to keep focused, there was someone else in the room and I didn't feel comfortable speaking in tongues. But my prayers didn't seem on fire or seem to have any life to them, so I told the person that I was going to speak in tongues.
    Tongues made me feel alot better, and I prayed for her, for hours off and on with the spirit and the mind. I felt pretty good and confident that something would happen.
    It was then that I realized atleast one of the important facts about praying in the spirit.

    Now for the most part I start off by praying in the spirit(tongues), when I am by myself, then I pray with the mind. Whatever problems I am having just seem to take a back seat. After that experience I knew what Andrew Wormack was talking about.
     
  17. Andrew

    Andrew Well-Known Member

    +21
    Non-Denom
    "I just recieved it this year, from Andrew Wormack.
    He said if you didn't pray in tongues it was like fighting the devil with a water pistol."

    Funny you shld say that, last nite I was talking to my wife about the same thing. She feels that God is not answering her prayers and just feels real defeated, and kinda like wants to give up on believing for certain things to change.

    I brought up tongues again (it's quite a sensitive topic betw us so i dropped it for some time) and told her that maybe she ought to pray in tongues (she doesnt speak in tongues but believes she is already baptised with the Holy Spirit). I told her that perhaps your life wont have so many upsetting things (esp at work & health) if the Holy Spirit was praying through you for you.

    I mean he wld know what's up ahead, and just how to pray right. If you just pray in English with your mind, you are limited to what you know.

    Well, she didnt say anything but just listened. At least we didnt end up in an argument! *LOL :)

    Thanks for sharing. I'm also interested in how you actually started speaking. Was it like mine or totally different? eg some people get slained and then get up an hour later talking in tongues, etc.

    "Now for the most part I start off by praying in the spirit(tongues), when I am by myself, then I pray with the mind."

    Hey do you also experience this: sometimes you wanna pray about a certain problem but you just dont know what to say. then you pray in tongues, then when you switch back to the mind/English, you somehow have the words to say or know what to say. it sort of comes out easier. but sometimes, when I pray in tongues, my mind seems to just wander all over the place. that's usu when I dont have any specific thing to pray about and am just doing it for the sake of doing it (i guess) *L

    the other thing is this: the pentecostals always talk about intercessory tongues. ie you are suddenly burdened in the heart to pray for something/someone -- you know something aint right. so you pray in tongues until the burden lifts from your heart, then you know there's a breakthrough/deliverance -- whoever or whatever that thing was. I've never experienced this. have you? they usu pray like for hours. i just dont think i have the stamina! maybe that's why God doesnt use me in this area. oh well...
     
  18. rapturefish

    rapturefish Kingdom Citizen, Spiritual Nomad

    614
    +43
    Australia
    Presbyterian
    Single
    I came from a very conservative Southern baptist church in Hong Kong (that make any sense?) and it was there God first spoke to me about himself. I just knew that there was a real God, but I didn't understand in my mind the gospel as a kid, or even when people tried to explain to me.

    I moved countries, became a christian after a church camp when I finally understood in my mind that Jesus' death on the cross somehow could save me from my sins now. I gave my life to God. Life, I thought, would be easier or better and I had the key to everything.

    No way! What followed was a journey where God began to chip away at different parts of me that were not yielded to him. It was great when I first became a christian, but the feelings faded. My ups became less frequent and shorter, my downs grew longer and more prevalent. There was still this gap in me even though I knew Jesus was the truth. Why did everything seem so hard? Whenever I served God it was draining.

    Then I moved back to Hong Kong and after a few years something happened at my old church - some conflict with this girl who had a problem with the complementarian view of male and female roles - and it nearly ruined me so I changed churches but crippled with this emotional pain at the injustice of it. Then my grandma died, unsaved. I was between churches and in spiritual limbo. I saw the circumstances of my departure from my last church as the death of evangelical programs. I was asking many questions about death and why a good person like grandma would die unsaved despite trying hard to share the gospel with her. That was the end of last year.

    Through various God-incidences I was led to a Spirit-filled church where I was welcomed - for a conservative background guy this was a jump - but at this point I didn't care how crazy it looked or not, all I wanted was a church that lived God's love. It was and is a great church. Good as it was though, I still couldn't get over this hurt.

    Then one day I was invited by a friend to this conference where Jack Deere was the speaker at a local HK church. I shared my problem briefly with him and his first question was, "Have you forgiven her?" i said I was trying. He asked if he could pray for me and I said please. So he laid his hand on me and prayed for me. Then he suggested that I come back the next night because the talk was on forgiveness.

    So I returned the next night - and by the end of the talk I was praying as hard as I could for God to forgive this woman who wronged me, and to forgive me for my anger against her and against Him. I was drained. I felt I hadn't prayed too effectively. i thanked my friend and went home.

    The next days I realised I was smiling! What for? I was at work, the situation was still the same. But then I realised the sting of my pain was gone. A burden had lifted off me, I was reading the bible like it was my favourite food and praying with life! I had been healed, I was able to say to God that I forgive her and to even pray for her.

    Thanks to this experience, I thought, well if God could heal me overnight of an emotional pain that would have taken years to heal, then why should other supernatural things not be available today? I naturally read Jack Deere's books and many others. I read the bible and suddenly this whole other side to it I had been blind too just came alive.

    Later this year there was a New Wine conference and it was specifically about spiritual gifts. I had been praying for the gift of tongues but nothing had happened. Then during the conference after one talk we were invited to come forward if we wished to be released in the gift of tongues. So I walked down. Then others who could speak surrounded us and we all began singing in the Spirit while we nonspeakers tried to emulate their syllables while praising God. The vicar of the church laid his hand on my back and we continued to sing. Once again, nothing happened.

    That night I went home, and began to have a shower. And I decided to try saying something and these syllables came out. At first I wondered whether I was inducing it or whether these were really a spiritual language. But as I continued to speak I knew it was not some gibberish I made up, it was not induced by some repetition of "banana banana" said backwards or anything close to emotional manipulation. It was as if I just popped in the shower and decided to sing.

    The language has been with me for all of six weeks now. It is most effective when I haven't eaten too much, when I am burdened to pray or if I am in a worshipful mood (sometimes I sing and then I'll begin to sing in the Spirit). It has been great whenever I am tempted because the focus goes back in worship or prayer to God and it is effective prayer. Sometimes I don't know how to pray and the language helps me to pray. It's like that conversion experience I first had, only the feelings don't fade for long periods of time now, there's this sense that God is near, and he is someone and not a distant idea.

    Which is why I mean it when I say that God is SO AWESOME! HE'S SO COOL!!!

    blessings,
     
  19. Andrew

    Andrew Well-Known Member

    +21
    Non-Denom
    "It is most effective when I haven't eaten too much, when I am burdened to pray or if I am in a worshipful mood (sometimes I sing and then I'll begin to sing in the Spirit)."

    Yes I know exactly what you mean. when there's something weighing on your heart, it just pours out. This is what Paul also in a sense meant when he said there must be love -- consciousness of God's love for you and/or hence love for the person you are praying for. otherwise we're just a sounding gong.

    "It's like that conversion experience I first had, only the feelings don't fade for long periods of time now, "

    exactly! the fire seems to burn longer, and we keep it going by continuing to pray in tongues daily!

    "there's this sense that God is near, and he is someone and not a distant idea."

    yes, that's becos when you speak in tongues, you are talking directly to God.

    thanks for sharing, it was wonderful :)
     
  20. SUNSTONE

    SUNSTONE Christian Warrior

    +205
    Non-Denom
    I was at a 4 day semonar with Andrew Wormack, he packed my church with people who wanted to hear him speak.
    At the end of the service of day 2, he asked if anyone wanted to be baptized in the gift of tongues. So I went for it, he laid hands on me and said to just begin to babble, it will be different than anyone elses, so just let it flow he said.
    And I did, it flowed very smooth and easy like I had been doing it for years.

    I notice that I speak in different types, like some sound like an Native Indian language, some French, and even Chinese or Japanese.

    And I do find it easyier and more effective to pray both with the spirit and with the mind. They compliment each other alot.
     
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