Objectively - what if the Sabbath is true (unedited) and evolution is wrong? What are the consequences?

BobRyan

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Observing the Sabbath on Saturday is not what will make you right in the eyes of God but a relationship with Christ in faith.
That could also be said of "Do not take God's name in vain" Ex 20:7 and "Honor your father and mother" Ex 20:12

This thread is for those who either edit the Sabbath commandment as it reads in the Bible - to point it to weekday 1 (I think you might be in that group) or to delete it.

The idea is for them to show objectively how they evaluate the pro's and con's of that decision as in "what if your view is not correct - how do you view those consequences"?

Some might say "it would not matter either way" --

What do you say?
 
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rturner76

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Yes, God seeks a relationship with us and how God “knows” us is through obedience 1 John 2:3-5 Obedience to Him is a relationship with God and especially the Sabbath Ezekiel 20:12, Ezekiel 20:20 because that is the day God sanctified and set aside as the day to honor Him doing His ways. Isaiah 58:13, Exodus 20:10. What better way to get to know someone than to spend time with them. God only asks for one day and the others are set aside to get our work done. Exodus 20:9 Does the day matter? God would not have asked if it didn’t. Cain and Abel are a good example. Both made sacrifices, one the way God asked, the other the way he wanted, God only accepted one
Obedience is great. Obedience to what exactly? The 613 Levitical laws should also be practiced. So you worship on Saturday great! Is that going to get you saved or is Christ?
 
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rturner76

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The idea is for them to show objectively how they evaluate the pro's and con's of that decision as in "what if your view is not correct - how do you view those consequences"?
If my view is not correct I pray God will forgive me. I am fairly confident that God won't send me to hell for going to church on the wrong day.
 
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SabbathBlessings

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Obedience is great. Obedience to what exactly? The 613 Levitical laws should also be practiced. So you worship on Saturday great! Is that going to get you saved or is Christ?

Does Jesus say those who practice lawlessness will be saved- can you quote that scripture for us? The Sabbath commandment is no different than any other commandment. We do not keep the commandments to be saved, this is the result of being transformed by Jesus and you want to keep the commandments because you love Jesus and have faith in what He asks of us if because you trust that is for our own good.
 
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rturner76

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Does Jesus say those who practice lawlessness will be saved- can you quote that scripture for us? The Sabbath commandment is no different than any other commandment. We do not keep the commandments to be saved, this is the result of being transformed by Jesus and you want to keep the commandments because you love Jesus and have faith in what He asks of us if because you trust that is for our own good.
I don't disagree with anything you are saying here. However, there is a bit of a conflict when you say we do not keep the commandments to be saved but emphasize keeping the Sabbath on Saturday like that is what will save you.
 
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SabbathBlessings

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I don't disagree with anything you are saying here. However, there is a bit of a conflict when you say we do not keep the commandments to be saved but emphasize keeping the Sabbath on Saturday like that is what will save you.
I have never said keeping the Sabbath saves us, please quote me ever saying that. We are not saved by law-keeping, we are saved by the blood of Jesus and by His grace through our faith. Those who have faith uphold the law Romans 3:31, Revelation 14:12 which shows an outward expression that our heart has been changed inwardly and are in harmony with God's will. Psalms 40:8, Hebrews 8:10
 
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BobRyan

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If my view is not correct I pray God will forgive me. I am fairly confident that God won't send me to hell for going to church on the wrong day.
That is reasonable of course. But what exactly is it that you would be doing wrong in that case?

Does it make sense to you that a literally true Ex 20:11 for all mankind (as we see in Mark 2:27) makes a literal Gen 2:1-3 necessary? And given that neither Moses nor his readers at Sinai were "Darwinists" coming out of Egypt - they would have to have done a lot of mental gymnastics as newly freed egyptian slaves - to turn Genesis 1 - 2 into Darwinism.

And in that scenario how would God be expected to direct your attention to the problem?
 
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BobRyan

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I don't disagree with anything you are saying here. However, there is a bit of a conflict when you say we do not keep the commandments to be saved but emphasize keeping the Sabbath on Saturday like that is what will save you.
Keeping the Sabbath cannot save someone just like refusing to take God's name in vain does not save someone.

But even in the NT "Sin Is transgression of the Law" 1 John 3:4 - by definition;.
 
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BobRyan

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Obedience is great. Obedience to what exactly?
scripture... the Word of God
The 613 Levitical laws should also be practiced.
There are 1050 in the NT and now you say there is about half that in the OT... is it "the number" that tells us to ignore them in your POV?
So you worship on Saturday great! Is that going to get you saved or is Christ?
Christ gets us saved even though we choose not to take God's name in vain. How is this any different when it comes to God's Sabbath commandment?

==================

According to the Catholic Catechism (your user indicates that you are Catholic) God's TEN Commandments are affirmed as being included in the moral law of God applicable to all mankind. Your Papal Encyclical "Dies Domini" also argues this point. Here is a detail about the Law of God where you and I both agree.

- so I don't think it solves anything to point to the ceremonial laws in the 613 as if that is the difference here. We already agree that all TEN are included in the moral law of God - written on the heart under the New Covenant.

And given that - the scenario in the OP is all the more interesting.
 
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sparow

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Yes, God seeks a relationship with us and how God “knows” us is through obedience 1 John 2:3-5 Obedience to Him is a relationship with God and especially the Sabbath Ezekiel 20:12, Ezekiel 20:20 because that is the day God sanctified and set aside as the day to honor Him doing His ways. Isaiah 58:13, Exodus 20:10. What better way to get to know someone than to spend time with them. God only asks for one day and the others are set aside to get our work done. Exodus 20:9 Does the day matter? God would not have asked if it didn’t. Cain and Abel are a good example. Both made sacrifices, one the way God asked, the other the way he wanted, God only accepted one.



True, but I do not think everyone who has worshipped on Sunday will not be saved. It’s only when we know the Truth and go away from that Truth when it becomes dangerous. We are fortunate to have access to God’s Word and we are told to seek the Truth from His Word, we are sanctified from the Truth John 17:17 and we must worship Him in Truth and Spirit John 4:23-24. All of God’s commandments are Truth. Psalm 119:151. We are so blessed to have God’s Word to be a light to our path. Psalms 119:105

At the very least, and in as far as all have sinned, could a person who worships the living God on Sunday, contrary to the command, have the seal of God which is contained in the fourth commandment. I do not know who will be saved, but instead of appeasing hose who need to overcome, we should be shaking the tree.
 
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sparow

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Paul says in Eph 6:2 that "'honor your father and mother' is the first commandment with a promise' -- which is an appeal not only to the ten but to the sequence of the ten
I glanced at the surrounding verses; I say all the commandments have promise; There could be a secret code in Paul's remarks.
 
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SabbathBlessings

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At the very least, and in as far as all have sinned, could a person who worships the living God on Sunday, contrary to the command, have the seal of God which is contained in the fourth commandment. I do not know who will be saved, but instead of appeasing hose who need to overcome, we should be shaking the tree.
Oh I am not appeasing anyone and believe we should be teaching others the Sabbath Truth and all the Truth in God’s commandments. We are only judged based on our knowledge and when we know the Sabbath Truth but choose not to follow (this applies to any of God’s commandments) there remains no more sacrifice. Hebrews 10:26-30. I suspect millions of people will be saved who did know the Sabbath Truth and God will judge righteously so I leave that in His hands. We are so fortunate to have God’s Word and all of His commandments are Truth Psalms 119:151

Happy Sabbath!
 
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sparow

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Oh I am not appeasing anyone and believe we should be teaching others the Sabbath Truth and all the Truth in God’s commandments. We are only judged based on our knowledge and when we know the Sabbath Truth but choose not to follow (this applies to any of God’s commandments) there remains no more sacrifice. Hebrews 10:26-30. I suspect millions of people will be saved who did know the Sabbath Truth and God will judge righteously so I leave that in His hands. We are so fortunate to have God’s Word and all of His commandments are Truth Psalms 119:151

Happy Sabbath!

Those in Jesus's camp have no excuse for not knowing the Law; Hebrews is not something received directly from God; it is debate with men who want to continue killing sheep, not understanding that Jesus is the Lamb of God even the Passover Lamb. This statement is made to those who know the letter of the Law, Jesus has said, no unclean thing will enter the Kingdom of God. I don't think Heb 10:26-30 supports your argument. Once a person is in Jesus's camp He will not easily let go.
 
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SabbathBlessings

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Those in Jesus's camp have no excuse for not knowing the Law; Hebrews is not something received directly from God; it is debate with men who want to continue killing sheep, not understanding that Jesus is the Lamb of God even the Passover Lamb. This statement is made to those who know the letter of the Law, Jesus has said, no unclean thing will enter the Kingdom of God. I don't think Heb 10:26-30 supports your argument. Once a person is in Jesus's camp He will not easily let go.
There are people living up to the light they have. There are millions of people who do not have access to bibles and I do not think God will judge them like He will for those who do access to His Word, if we have access to His Word, there is no excuse not to obey what He asks. This is what I am referring to. Regardless, I place my trust in the righteous judgement of Jesus Christ and only He knows the heart.

I don’t understand your statement about Hebrews is not something received directly from God- can you elaborate? Are you referring to the whole book or Hebrews 10? You don’t think Hebrews 10:26-30 is about living a life of willfully sinning?
 
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sparow

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There are people living up to the light they have. There are millions of people who do not have access to bibles and I do not think God will judge them like He will for those who do access to His Word, if we have access to His Word, there is no excuse not to obey what He asks. This is what I am referring to. Regardless, I place my trust in the righteous judgement of Jesus Christ and only He knows the heart.

I don’t understand your statement about Hebrews is not something received directly from God- can you elaborate? Are you referring to the whole book or Hebrews 10? You don’t think Hebrews 10:26-30 is about living a life of willfully sinning?


I do not know who is going to be saved, nor do I intentionally judge anyone; I attempt to understand God's requirements.


No one comes to Christ unless the Father draw them. There are those whom the Father does not draw. The church is instructed to not cast pearls before swine. For those who are in covenant with Christ, and their descendants there is the Temple processes of being at one with God.


My reply was empowered by assumption. I find much fault with Hebrews, and Paul. I began by misreading Hebrews 10:26-30, The extremeness of it worried me; it is at odds with the teaching of Christ, and Paul. It probably depends on what “wilfully” means, whether it is to do with weakness/deception or defiance.
 
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SabbathBlessings

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I do not know who is going to be saved, nor do I intentionally judge anyone; I attempt to understand God's requirements.


No one comes to Christ unless the Father draw them. There are those whom the Father does not draw. The church is instructed to not cast pearls before swine. For those who are in covenant with Christ, and their descendants there is the Temple processes of being at one with God.


My reply was empowered by assumption. I find much fault with Hebrews, and Paul. I began by misreading Hebrews 10:26-30, The extremeness of it worried me; it is at odds with the teaching of Christ, and Paul. It probably depends on what “wilfully” means, whether it is to do with weakness/deception or defiance.
Thanks for the response and for the honestly. I see the teaching in Hebrews 10:26-30 very similar to what Jesus said in Matthew 7:21-23. Jesus in His own words says those who practice lawlessness will not be saved (depart from me). Has everyone sinned? Yes we are all sinners, so He is not referring to that, I think “practice” is the key word. Can we overcome sin? Not on our own, but through the power of Jesus Christ we can gain victory over sin. Philippians 4:13. If we fall, we have an Adversary with Jesus that if we go to Him in repentance, He is faithful and willing to forgive us. 1 John 1:9 We should ask Jesus to gain victory over our sins. What is dangerous is when we stop asking for repentance for our sins, we stop believing that breaking God’s law is a sin and learn to live with our sin as if it was normal or okay, therefore we stop hearing the voice of God. Mark 3:28–30 This is what I think Hebrews 10:26 Is also referring to. If we willfully sin or practice lawlessness.

I believe the book of Hebrews is an inspired book, I can’t imagine the Bible without this book or without Paul’s writings. Sadly, there are a lot of confusion on Paul's writing and many even in his day said they are hard to understand and twist to their own destruction as they do with the scriptures. 2 Peter 3:16. Paul says what matters is keeping the commandments of God 1 Cor 7:19 but most who take Pauls writings out of context to promote lawlessness never quote this verse.

God bless!
 
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sparow

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Thanks for the response and for the honestly. I see the teaching in Hebrews 10:26-30 very similar to what Jesus said in Matthew 7:21-23. Jesus in His own words says those who practice lawlessness will not be saved (depart from me). Has everyone sinned? Yes we are all sinners, so He is not referring to that, I think “practice” is the key word. Can we overcome sin? Not on our own, but through the power of Jesus Christ we can gain victory over sin. Philippians 4:13. If we fall, we have an Adversary with Jesus that if we go to Him in repentance, He is faithful and willing to forgive us. 1 John 1:9 We should ask Jesus to gain victory over our sins. What is dangerous is when we stop asking for repentance for our sins, we stop believing that breaking God’s law is a sin and learn to live with our sin as if it was normal or okay, therefore we stop hearing the voice of God. Mark 3:28–30 This is what I think Hebrews 10:26 Is also referring to. If we willfully sin or practice lawlessness.

I believe the book of Hebrews is an inspired book, I can’t imagine the Bible without this book or without Paul’s writings. Sadly, there are a lot of confusion on Paul's writing and many even in his day said they are hard to understand and twist to their own destruction as they do with the scriptures. 2 Peter 3:16. Paul says what matters is keeping the commandments of God 1 Cor 7:19 but most who take Pauls writings out of context to promote lawlessness never quote this verse.

God bless!


What you are talking about is having personal relationship with Jesus and I add each person's narrow path is unique just as their finger prints are unique; these are a special group. Another group opposes God and in this case the law is applied differently.


I can still remember when I sinned, before I took an active interest in the Faith, I can remember making excuse; I was so good that I would have embarrassed a Roman Catholic apologist.


I have never learned religious jargon; if I were to say, Hebrews is an inspired book, I would mean something very different to what you mean. I do not believe Paul was sent by God. His only authority is His own testimony, Paul should always be tested against the OT as did the Barains.
 
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BobRyan

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I glanced at the surrounding verses; I say all the commandments have promise;
Take a closer look at that commandment that the Holy Spirit says "is the first commandment with a promise' Eph 6:2

12 “Honor your father and your mother, so that your days may be prolonged on the land which the Lord your God gives you.

over half of that commandment is a promise, a blessing. No other commandment of the TEN has that.

God has other commandments besides the TEN, and there are other promises in the Bible that come before Ex 20:12. But uniquely within the TEN - we have the situation that EX 20:12 is the first commandment with a promise.

This is interesting in Eph 6 written to a gentile church - because Paul could have said "Children obey your parents... I have this command from God" or something of that sort. Instead of that Paul uses language that appeals to authority of the TEN - he specifically directs them to the unit of TEN.

That separation and distinction of the TEN that we find in Eph 6 is not without precident as Heb 9 reminds us - the TEN were kept inside the ark of the covenant and no other commands were placed inside that ark, only they are written in stone, only they are written by the hand of God directly, only they are spoken by God directly to Israel not just spoken to Moses. So God has a pattern of distinguishing that unit of TEN in both OT and NT.

No wonder they are subjected to predictable and regular opposition
 
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sparow

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Take a closer look at that commandment that the Holy Spirit says "is the first commandment with a promise' Eph 6:2

12 “Honor your father and your mother, so that your days may be prolonged on the land which the Lord your God gives you.

over half of that commandment is a promise, a blessing. No other commandment of the TEN has that.

God has other commandments besides the TEN, and there are other promises in the Bible that come before Ex 20:12. But uniquely within the TEN - we have the situation that EX 20:12 is the first commandment with a promise.

This is interesting in Eph 6 written to a gentile church - because Paul could have said "Children obey your parents... I have this command from God" or something of that sort. Instead of that Paul uses language that appeals to authority of the TEN - he specifically directs them to the unit of TEN.

That separation and distinction of the TEN that we find in Eph 6 is not without precident as Heb 9 reminds us - the TEN were kept inside the ark of the covenant and no other commands were placed inside that ark, only they are written in stone, only they are written by the hand of God directly, only they are spoken by God directly to Israel not just spoken to Moses. So God has a pattern of distinguishing that unit of TEN in both OT and NT.

No wonder they are subjected to predictable and regular opposition

You could have arrived at your conclusion regarding the Ten Commandment with out using Paul.


Do you call Paul the Holy spirit; it was Paul who said, "is the first commandment with a promise' Eph 6:2 What did Paul mean by first; does he mean that the commandment was given out of sequence, as with the Sabbath commandment; does he mean that the Sabbath command has no promise? Duet 4:1 assigns the same promise to all the commandments. That promise is also the greeting of Spock from Star Trek.


I do not see anything wrong with Paul's use of the command , as a lesson for children; But the command is intended for adults, and it instructs the individual to do or be honourable such that his parents need not be ashamed.


Now wondering of topic, on Sunday morning I watch 5 religious programs, the hour of power, The Wold Tomorrow, Tomorrow's World, a SDA program, the name escapes me, Michael Yousef, and Dr Stanley. Each week I choose a winner; Dr Stanley won last Sunday, and Wallace Smith the week before; a couple of years ago there was a program on “Not Worshipping Paul”.


While I frequently misunderstand people and as one brother to another, that you may give consideration to it, what I see in your post is: You elevate Paul to the position reserved for Christ, you assign worship to Paul that belongs to God, and you give credit to Paul that belongs to God. This is a terrible thing to say, but I feel obligated to say it , expecting my effort to be invain.
 
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Icyspark

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Observing the Sabbath on Saturday is not what will make you right in the eyes of God but a relationship with Christ in faith.


Murdering on Monday is not what will make you right in the eyes of God but a relationship with Christ in faith. o_O
 
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