Objections to Sola Scriptura?

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The document states, “constitute the one sacred deposit of the word of God entrusted to the Church,” and they both are to be “accepted and honored with equal devotion and reverence” (p. 15).

Such statements carry with it two important implications. First, the “word of God” is not the Scripture but the Scripture and Tradition as a unity. This seems to be the meaning of the phrase “word of God” throughout the document.

Second, it is implied that Tradition and Scripture are not to be differentiated on the basis of authority. They have equal authority because, supposedly, Tradition is founded on the Scripture.

stated that “no one is seriously able to maintain that there is a proof in Scripture for every catholic doctrine. True.

Good Day, Eleos

I would have to go back and read "I Think" Ratzinger make the (functional) distinction here:

“It is important to note that only Scripture is defined in terms of what is: it is stated that Scripture is the word of God consigned to writing. Tradition, however, is described only functionally, in terms of what it does: it hands on the word of God, but is not the word of God.” See Joseph Ratzinger’s “The Transmission of Divine Revelation” in Herbert Vorgrimler, ed., Commentary on the Documents of Vatican II (New York: Herder and Herder, 1969), Vol. 3, p. 194.

I see that ( what you quoted) P15 would be in line with the statement that the Roman Church made at Trent.

Not so sure that functional they even in the mind of a member of the Roman Catholic members mind it works. Where the Roman Catholic member assets that the "word of God" come from tradition of the Church, seem logically to assert (functionally) that the Word of God is at some level dependent on the Church for it's existence.

Now I need to be clear here, I do believe that the RC denomination can create a Canon for it's self no problem at all. I also accept that the members have granted that authority to the (RC) leadership. I am not a member of that church so it has little impact on me.

In Him,

Bill
 
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The Liturgist

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Is that not misappropriation?

No, since the contents of Scripture were written by the Prophets, Historians, Evangelists and Apostles, the founders and leaders of Judaism and the Christian Church, and the decision on what books were Scripture was made by the Church, and until the invention of the Printing Press and the promotion of mass literacy, most people learned Scripture in the Church.

The Bible is no more a "tradition" than Shakespeare is a "tradition."

Which is very much the case, since the popularity of Shakespeare, the staging conventions, even which plays are considered genuine vs. apocrypha, are all matters of a rich Thespian tradition. The difference is that Sacred Scripture is a Holy Tradition and Shakespeare a secular tradition, one historically viewed as being rather vulgar (and not without some justification, although I would note Shakespeare did much to legitimize theater; the canons of the Quinisext Council prohibited clergy from attending the theater, and the Apostolic Canons prohibited actors, prostitutes, teachers of Pagan philosophy and gladiators, and naturally, those who worked in fields supportive of and profiting from those professions, to change their professions before being baptized).

Nor is it essential or required for faith, salvation, justification, righteousness, perseverance, our adoption, or inheritance, as is obedience to the NT Scriptural commands and exhortations. . .which is not to deny it as one of the means of the Christian life.

On the contrary, the liturgies of Baptism and the Eucharist are essential and required expressions of faith for salvation, justification, righteousness, perseverance, our adoption and inheritance, according to the New Testament itself, except in certain limited and special cases in which Terrestrial participation in the liturgy is somehow precluded (the Baptism of Blood, the Baptism of Desire, Invincible Ignorance, and special acts of salvific grace), for Christ our God, and the Apostle Paul, declare them essential for life everlasting, and the Apostle John and the Prophet Isaiah reveal in Isaiah and Revelation that the Heavenly life is a liturgical life, so the Divine Liturgy is our inheritance.

Indeed, the Bible is a liturgical book; every chapter exudes liturgical significance, for Jesus Christ is the Way, the Truth and the Life; His Way is the Worship of God in Spirit and Truth; Baptism is how we receive the Spirit by washing away our sins and putting to death our old self to rise in Christ (for all who have been baptized in Christ have put on Christ, alleluia) and the Eucharist is how we participate in the fruits of His all-sufficient sacrifice.

And the indwelling Spirit enables true righteousness and perseverence, and in Baptism we are adopted as sons of God, grafted onto the Body of Christ by partaking of that Body in the Eucharist, for our salvation is Communion with God.
 
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eleos1954

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Good Day, Eleos

I would have to go back and read "I Think" Ratzinger make the (functional) distinction here:

“It is important to note that only Scripture is defined in terms of what is: it is stated that Scripture is the word of God consigned to writing. Tradition, however, is described only functionally, in terms of what it does: it hands on the word of God, but is not the word of God.” See Joseph Ratzinger’s “The Transmission of Divine Revelation” in Herbert Vorgrimler, ed., Commentary on the Documents of Vatican II (New York: Herder and Herder, 1969), Vol. 3, p. 194.

I see that ( what you quoted) P15 would be in line with the statement that the Roman Church made at Trent.

Not so sure that functional they even in the mind of a member of the Roman Catholic members mind it works. Where the Roman Catholic member assets that the "word of God" come from tradition of the Church, seem logically to assert (functionally) that the Word of God is at some level dependent on the Church for it's existence.

Now I need to be clear here, I do believe that the RC denomination can create a Canon for it's self no problem at all. I also accept that the members have granted that authority to the (RC) leadership. I am not a member of that church so it has little impact on me.

In Him,

Bill

Yeah me either (no impact) ... however there are traditions of men ... and traditions in His Word.

Mark 7

6Jesus answered them, “Isaiah prophesied correctly about you hypocrites, as it is written:

‘These people honor Me with their lips,
but their hearts are far from Me.7They worship Me in vain;
they teach as doctrine the precepts of men.’8You have disregarded the commandment of God to keep the tradition of men.”

Jesus took issue with the traditions of men ... so I'm staying with scripture.
 
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Clare73

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On the contrary, the liturgies of Baptism and the Eucharist are essential and required expressions of faith for salvation, justification, righteousness, perseverance, our adoption and inheritance, according to the New Testament itself
I've not seen in the NT where faith and participation in the Lord's Supper are necessary for salvation.

I've seen where faith in his blood is necessary for salvation (Romans 3:25).
 
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Clare73

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Yes and your interpretation is the wrong one and goes against the early church teaching and the plain dictionary meaning of the words.
Assertion without Biblical demonstration is without merit.
 
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The Liturgist

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I've not seen in the NT where faith and participation in the Lord's Supper are necessary for salvation.

I've seen where faith in his blood is necessary for salvation (Romans 3:25).

See John 3:33, all of John 6, et cetera. There is more to Faith in Jesus Christ than Faith in His Precious Blood, which we are told in all four Gospels and in 1 Corinthians 11 to drink, for example, faith in His precious Body, which we are told in all four Gospels and 1 Corinthians 11 to eat , but we must be baptized and not be in a state of grave sin; those who are of the age of accountability and have the mental capacity to analyze sin are warned by the Holy Apostle Paul to examine their conscience, lest in partaking they not discern the body and blood of our Lodd and are killed by it rather than receiving the medicine of immortality.

And this applies whether one believes Christ is bodily present, as do Roman Catholics, Old Catholics, at least half of Anglicans, probably most Anglicans in the US, where except in parts of Virginia and occasional parishes elsewhere the Episcopal Church has tended to be very high church, especially the Continuing Anglican Churches (although a few low church Continuing Anglican churches exist), the Lutherans, the Eastern and Oriental Orthodox, and the Assyrians church that was once the largest in the world before Tamerlane killed most of them, along with their Syriac Orthodox brethren (evidence suggests where one church existed, the other also frequently existed, and this is the case now in much of the Middle East except, notably, Jerusalem, perhaps because Assyrians, who largely live in Persia and Iraq, can’t get visas and are the only ancient church that lacks a presence at the Holy Sepulchre, and of those Assyrians and Syriac Orthodox who survived, the Turks killed even more in 1915, and then ISIS in 2014-2016, or whether you believe He is spiritually present, as did Calvin, as well as most Reformed Christians and the low church and evangelical Anglicans, or if you believe that when you partake the bread and wine, it becomes for you His body and blood (receptionism), or I suppose if you believe they are signs (Zwinglianism) or mere memorials (Memorialism), which is a view which seems to contradict the idea of Faith in the Blood and the repeated stress in the Synoptics and the Epistle of John on the sacrament (and how would a memorial or symbol be dangerous if you partook unworthily, as in 1 Corinthians 11:27-34?). Indeed the presence of the Prayer of Humble Access in the Book of Common Prayer is why most theologians regard the great Anglican monastic Dom Gregory Dix, OHC, in his groundbreaking work The Shape of the Liturgy, of being in error when suggesting Thomas Cranmer was a Zwinglian; his views on the Eucharist and even those of the low church Elizabethan Richard Hooker come across as in line with those of Calvin, whereas those of John Jewell and Archbishop Laud strike me being in line with those of Martin Luther, and indeed a Lutheran view was promoted by the deletion of the infamous Black Rubric from the Elizabethan and Jacobean editions of the BCP, but it was restored in 1662 probably to avoid civil unrest with the former Roundheads following the Restoration of the Monarchy, where it remained until the ascendancy of the Anglo Catholics, who did as much good for the poor of South London as the Salvation Army, and are indeed men like Rev. Percy Dearmer, and before him, Anglo Catholics who spent the time in between helping people in prison for the crime of being Anglican and wearing a chasuble (despite this being legal under the Ornaments Rubric, but the danger of messing Church and State is that even the best and fairest judge knows less about religion than the average clergyman), the forgotten heroes of pre-war Britain.

However, the Anglo Catholic revision of the BCP, the 1928 Deposited Book, was shot down by an alliance consisting chiefly of non-Anglicans, another problem with state churches, since most Anglican MPs voted to remove it. Fortunately, the C of E was granted liturgical autonomy, although the new Eucharistic texts, for example, in Common Worship, which I love, although once to my chagrin I confused it with either the 2004 Irish BCP, or the new Scottish prayerbook, or the Canadian Book of Alternative Services, when conversing with @Paidiske about my enthusiasm for it; my only regret is that I don’t think it has a rubric like the 1979 BCP allowing for it to be rewritten into traditional language and used as such in the Episcopal Church, and it is also not in the Public Domain, but is rather under Crown Copyright and is new enough to be protected in the US (unlike the Book of Common Prayer, or the King James Bible, where every Episcopal version of the former and every traditional language international version except for the ponderous 1984 Welsh version, and the 1962 Canadian version, which I have fallen out of love with after realizing that aside from a Eucharist that was the product of compromise following fierce debate, and an edited Psalter, it also has a watered-down Compline compared to the 1915 American and 1928 English versions, and the KJV’s Crown Copyright is so not in effect that the Gideons, who I was preparing to join as a full member before resuming my ministry, which limits me to associate membership, prints free hardcover copies, and puts them in hotels, where they are replaced after one or two years and then rebound as paperbacks for use in prisons. The Gideons actually encourage people who need a Bible to take them from hotels, within reason, and distribute books with the New Testament, Psalms and Proverbs, and I myself place these in hotel rooms where they are absent.

One hotel which I like, a Quality Inn, like many hotels, is owned by Hindus and puts the Advaita Vedanta in its rooms (a huge number of hotel and motel owner-operators in the US are members of the Patels, who are either an informal caste or a massive endogamous family with two branches; I would call them a tribe at a minimum; the joke is if you are a Patel you can travel across the country without paying for accommodation, but I myself really like them), while even in Utah, the Book of Mormon tends only to show up in Marriott properties. By the way, hotel casinos in Las Vegas, my home town, usually have Gideons Bibles, while the W luxury hotels made a big deal about not having them (because publicity is more important than God, right?) and an atheist who bought a luxury resort in the English countryside decided it would be a good idea to replace the Gideons Bibles with copies of a bestselling novel most of us would regard as inappropriate contentography, of which most of us have probably heard, and which along with its sequels has been made into a major motion picture; I am not going to name it as I don’t want our younger readers looking it up (and I would ask other members to kindly refrain from asking me what it is or posting “Oh, you mean such and such” for the same reason). However I would encourage everyone to join the Gideons or the American Bible Society or the equivalent in your country.

At any rate mentioning the Book of Common Prayer is not just a liturgical tangent, but rather, I would encourage @Clare73 to read the 1662 English, 1929 Scottish, or 1892, 1928 American or 1979 American BCP editions, which can be found here along with many others: The Book of Common Prayer for the Episcopal Church These books provide an explanation

I particularly like these PDF recreations of the beautifully typset Standard Editions of the 1892 and 1928 editions, which were issued to each Diocese and a limit number of subscribers and are sadly the rarest of rare books, exquisitely designed by the legendary typographer JB Updike. The 1979 BCP is also elegant; I can’t find a good looking BCP edition from elsewhere in the world in PDF format. Sadly, a planned Standard Edition of it, a Prospectus for which was prepared by the talented Arrion Press in San Francisco, was never made. At any rate, these books explain, in 1970s Contemporary Modern English in the case of the 1979 BCP, and with somewhat more simplicity in 1550-1660s Jacobean Ecclesiastical Modern English with modernized spelling, the importance of Baptism and Holy Communion to Christians, written by Protestants, for Protestants. John Wesley was a huge fan and intended that all Methodists should use the BCP, even preparing a special recension for the Methodists in North America, his famed Sunday Service Book of 1784, which he sent with Thomas Coke after ordaining him Superintendent (which is the English translation of Episkopos, which is Anglicized as Bishop, just as Elder is the literal meaning of Priest, the Anglicization of Presbyter (so the majority of Bible editions that translate Hierus, Sacerdos or Kohanim as Priest are making an error that causes confusion around the doctrine of the Priesthood of All Believers; every Christian is a Sacerdos, in that we can all pray to God directly and offer intercessory prayer on the part of others, but not every Christian is an Elder.

I want to stress in endorsing the BCP for learning about sacramental theology I am not endorsing Anglicanism or a Methodist or suggesting anyone become an Anglican or a Methodist; I myself am a Congregationalist minister and an admirer of Eastern and Oriental Orthodoxy. Also, I am a member of an ecumenical traditional liturgical association that develops public domain liturgical texts; we are finishing a draft on a modular traditional language BCP we call Editio MMXXII intended as an alternative to the 2019 BCP for the ACNA, which I was really disappointed by, an expansion of the 1928 American BCP for Continuing Anglican churches, which is good, but lacks useful content found in other BCP editions, and as a candidate for possible use by some Anglicans elsewhere in the Commonwealth, and that project stemmed from our longest in development project, which predates our founding, a traditional language Methodist service book based on the BCP.

After much discussion we finally agreed on a Lutheran project: a consolidation of the Common Service, the text, adapted from the 1789 American BCP that most traditional Lutheran hymnals are adapted from combined with Luther’s Shorter Catechism and other material, intended to reduce the number of Lutheran service books from three (the Hymnal, or Service Book, also called the Lutheran Book of Worship, Lutheran Worship, Christian Worship, the Evangelical Lutheran Hymnary, and several other names, one for each denomination, and two used by clergy, the Altar Book and Agenda) to two (The Common Service Book and a Hymnal), which is the pattern the Methodists and the Episcopalians have, despite having in the case of the Episcopalians a more complex liturgy than many Lutheran churches, but I expect Altar Books and Agendas will still be needed, and that’s fine; the main advantage will be to the laity. If we had the Lutheran book, I would link to it, because Luther’s Catechisms, the Books of Concord, and his liturgical texts, combined with the Cranmerian texts retained by the Lutherans in their Common Service, would provide an alternative to the Anglican work, but as it stands now you would have to get them from different sources (as far as any of us on the LiturgyWorks team can work out, perhaps @ViaCrucis or @MarkRohfrietsch knows of something like the BCP for Lutherans which combines both the liturgical texts, with the scripture lessons and collects, and the most important parts of the Formula of Concord, like the Longer and Shorter Catechism.

One of our other projects is fitting the Divine Office, the Eucharistic liturgy and the Propers (variable parts of the service) of the Assyrian Church of the East into one volume; presently there are like 17 but a lot of it is duplicated, and the overall liturgy is much simpler than say the Byzantine Rite, which if you include the whole thing with all possible services, would take 20 Folio-sized (very big) books to contain, although we have an Eaatern Orthodox priest who is trying to cram the essentials down into three (this has been done before, but never by one publisher in one set of books; in particular the Orthodox Prayer Book by Fr. Seraphim Nasser of 1947, nicknamed the “Nasser Five Pounder,” and the Prayers and Services of the Orthodox Church translated by Isabel Florence Hapgood in the late 19th century, have nearly everything except a Psalter and the Scripture Lessons.
 
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Xeno.of.athens

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"are useful" ???? just some guidelines for a "religious audience" .... so different teachings for different audiences? Say what?

2 Timothy 3:16-17
New International Version


16 All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, 17 so that the servant of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work.
Yes, useful for discussions with religious folk; specifically the Lord, Jesus Christ, used the scriptures with the Pharisees and the scribes because those religious men claimed to be teachers of the Law and followers of the prophets. When the Lord spoke with the Sadducees he used the books of Moses because the Sadducees trusted Moses but not the prophets. So our Lord, Jesus Christ, adjusted his use of scripture to suit the audience he was addressing.

Those who read the scriptures with some care and with proper attention to the detail of what they read and its context have known and taught these things for many centuries. So what I have written is not new and it is not original. It is an ancient teaching that the early Church Fathers taught, and I, being a Catholic in the 22nd century gladly acknowledge them and their priority in this teaching.

As Saint Paul said to Saint Timothy "All Scripture, having been divinely inspired, is useful for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for instruction in justice, so that the man of God may be perfect, having been trained for every good work."

Let us take Saint Paul's advice and be trained for every good work like Saint Timothy was.
 
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Xeno.of.athens

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Good Day, Xeno

Now that is a very interesting interpretation and application of those texts... Do you have an official document from your church that assures you that you have not errored in your interpretation? Or at least a official document stating in their own minds it is potentially valid?

Have you ever considered you may be in error?

In Him,

Bill
See this post #170
 
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eleos1954

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Yes, useful for discussions with religious folk; specifically the Lord, Jesus Christ, used the scriptures with the Pharisees and the scribes because those religious men claimed to be teachers of the Law and followers of the prophets. When the Lord spoke with the Sadducees he used the books of Moses because the Sadducees trusted Moses but not the prophets. So our Lord, Jesus Christ, adjusted his use of scripture to suit the audience he was addressing.

Those who read the scriptures with some care and with proper attention to the detail of what they read and its context have known and taught these things for many centuries. So what I have written is not new and it is not original. It is an ancient teaching that the early Church Fathers taught, and I, being a Catholic in the 22nd century gladly acknowledge them and their priority in this teaching.

As Saint Paul said to Saint Timothy "All Scripture, having been divinely inspired, is useful for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for instruction in justice, so that the man of God may be perfect, having been trained for every good work."

Let us take Saint Paul's advice and be trained for every good work like Saint Timothy was.

His Word is timeless, contains history and God's revelation of himself through it ... His interaction with mankind .... God does not change .... so application of how he interacted historically are examples of His character dealing with the constant disobedience of mankind and otherwise .... that is .... we are to learn from all of it.

and then there is prophesy .... some already fulfilled ... some not yet.

Jesus taught from the OT .... he didn't "adjust the use of scripture" .... He provided many more details of to what it means .... Jesus didn't think much of mans traditions.

All that being said ... He is our example in everything and we are to follow in His steps. Follow the Lamb wherever He goes.

So, I do understand your position, just don't agree with it ... will have to agree to disagree ;o)
 
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The Liturgist

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Jesus taught from the OT .... he didn't "adjust the use of scripture"

He did read selectively according to which book He was reading from.


Jesus didn't think much of mans traditions.

Indeed, but the practices adhered to by Protestants like Luther, Cranmer, myself, Calvin, Wesley, Melancthon, Boucher, Arminius, and most importantly, the holy martyrs, Saints Jan Hus and Jerome of Prague, founders of what became the Unitas Fratrum, the Moravian Church, and even Zinzendorf and the mysterious Waldo, founder of the Waldensians, were not traditions of men but rather part of Holy Tradition, which unites traditional Protestantism with Roman Catholicism, the Orthodox, and the Church of the East (the one that ISIS and Tamerlane tried to exterminate, and nearly succeeded, so only a million people remain in the church that once encompassed all of Asia, but no one seems to care about the Church of the Ear or even acknowledge the existence of it).
 
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Clare73

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See John 3:33, all of John 6, et cetera. There is more to Faith in Jesus Christ than Faith in His Precious Blood,
But is there more for saving faith which is not by faith's works of obedience (Ephesians 2:8-9)?
which we are told in all four Gospels and in 1 Corinthians 11 to drink, for example, faith in His precious Body, which we are told in all four Gospels and 1 Corinthians 11 to eat , but we must be baptized and not be in a state of grave sin; those who are of the age of accountability and have the mental capacity to analyze sin are warned by the Holy Apostle Paul to examine their conscience, lest in partaking they not discern the body and blood of our Lodd and are killed by it rather than receiving the medicine of immortality.

And this applies whether one believes Christ is bodily present, as do Roman Catholics, Old Catholics, at least half of Anglicans, probably most Anglicans in the US, where except in parts of Virginia and occasional parishes elsewhere the Episcopal Church has tended to be very high church, especially the Continuing Anglican Churches (although a few low church Continuing Anglican churches exist), the Lutherans, the Eastern and Oriental Orthodox, and the Assyrians church that was once the largest in the world before Tamerlane killed most of them, along with their Syriac Orthodox brethren (evidence suggests where one church existed, the other also frequently existed, and this is the case now in much of the Middle East except, notably, Jerusalem, perhaps because Assyrians, who largely live in Persia and Iraq, can’t get visas and are the only ancient church that lacks a presence at the Holy Sepulchre, and of those Assyrians and Syriac Orthodox who survived, the Turks killed even more in 1915, and then ISIS in 2014-2016, or whether you believe He is spiritually present, as did Calvin, as well as most Reformed Christians and the low church and evangelical Anglicans, or if you believe that when you partake the bread and wine, it becomes for you His body and blood (receptionism), or I suppose if you believe they are signs (Zwinglianism) or mere memorials (Memorialism), which is a view which seems to contradict the idea of Faith in the Blood and the repeated stress in the Synoptics and the Epistle of John on the sacrament (and how would a memorial or symbol be dangerous if you partook unworthily, as in 1 Corinthians 11:27-34?). Indeed the presence of the Prayer of Humble Access in the Book of Common Prayer is why most theologians regard the great Anglican monastic Dom Gregory Dix, OHC, in his groundbreaking work The Shape of the Liturgy, of being in error when suggesting Thomas Cranmer was a Zwinglian; his views on the Eucharist and even those of the low church Elizabethan Richard Hooker come across as in line with those of Calvin, whereas those of John Jewell and Archbishop Laud strike me being in line with those of Martin Luther, and indeed a Lutheran view was promoted by the deletion of the infamous Black Rubric from the Elizabethan and Jacobean editions of the BCP, but it was restored in 1662 probably to avoid civil unrest with the former Roundheads following the Restoration of the Monarchy, where it remained until the ascendancy of the Anglo Catholics, who did as much good for the poor of South London as the Salvation Army, and are indeed men like Rev. Percy Dearmer, and before him, Anglo Catholics who spent the time in between helping people in prison for the crime of being Anglican and wearing a chasuble (despite this being legal under the Ornaments Rubric, but the danger of messing Church and State is that even the best and fairest judge knows less about religion than the average clergyman), the forgotten heroes of pre-war Britain.

However, the Anglo Catholic revision of the BCP, the 1928 Deposited Book, was shot down by an alliance consisting chiefly of non-Anglicans, another problem with state churches, since most Anglican MPs voted to remove it. Fortunately, the C of E was granted liturgical autonomy, although the new Eucharistic texts, for example, in Common Worship, which I love, although once to my chagrin I confused it with either the 2004 Irish BCP, or the new Scottish prayerbook, or the Canadian Book of Alternative Services, when conversing with @Paidiske about my enthusiasm for it; my only regret is that I don’t think it has a rubric like the 1979 BCP allowing for it to be rewritten into traditional language and used as such in the Episcopal Church, and it is also not in the Public Domain, but is rather under Crown Copyright and is new enough to be protected in the US (unlike the Book of Common Prayer, or the King James Bible, where every Episcopal version of the former and every traditional language international version except for the ponderous 1984 Welsh version, and the 1962 Canadian version, which I have fallen out of love with after realizing that aside from a Eucharist that was the product of compromise following fierce debate, and an edited Psalter, it also has a watered-down Compline compared to the 1915 American and 1928 English versions, and the KJV’s Crown Copyright is so not in effect that the Gideons, who I was preparing to join as a full member before resuming my ministry, which limits me to associate membership, prints free hardcover copies, and puts them in hotels, where they are replaced after one or two years and then rebound as paperbacks for use in prisons. The Gideons actually encourage people who need a Bible to take them from hotels, within reason, and distribute books with the New Testament, Psalms and Proverbs, and I myself place these in hotel rooms where they are absent.

One hotel which I like, a Quality Inn, like many hotels, is owned by Hindus and puts the Advaita Vedanta in its rooms (a huge number of hotel and motel owner-operators in the US are members of the Patels, who are either an informal caste or a massive endogamous family with two branches; I would call them a tribe at a minimum; the joke is if you are a Patel you can travel across the country without paying for accommodation, but I myself really like them), while even in Utah, the Book of Mormon tends only to show up in Marriott properties. By the way, hotel casinos in Las Vegas, my home town, usually have Gideons Bibles, while the W luxury hotels made a big deal about not having them (because publicity is more important than God, right?) and an atheist who bought a luxury resort in the English countryside decided it would be a good idea to replace the Gideons Bibles with copies of a bestselling novel most of us would regard as inappropriate contentography, of which most of us have probably heard, and which along with its sequels has been made into a major motion picture; I am not going to name it as I don’t want our younger readers looking it up (and I would ask other members to kindly refrain from asking me what it is or posting “Oh, you mean such and such” for the same reason). However I would encourage everyone to join the Gideons or the American Bible Society or the equivalent in your country.

At any rate mentioning the Book of Common Prayer is not just a liturgical tangent, but rather, I would encourage @Clare73 to read the 1662 English, 1929 Scottish, or 1892, 1928 American or 1979 American BCP editions, which can be found here along with many others: The Book of Common Prayer for the Episcopal Church These books provide an explanation

I particularly like these PDF recreations of the beautifully typset Standard Editions of the 1892 and 1928 editions, which were issued to each Diocese and a limit number of subscribers and are sadly the rarest of rare books, exquisitely designed by the legendary typographer JB Updike. The 1979 BCP is also elegant; I can’t find a good looking BCP edition from elsewhere in the world in PDF format. Sadly, a planned Standard Edition of it, a Prospectus for which was prepared by the talented Arrion Press in San Francisco, was never made. At any rate, these books explain, in 1970s Contemporary Modern English in the case of the 1979 BCP, and with somewhat more simplicity in 1550-1660s Jacobean Ecclesiastical Modern English with modernized spelling, the importance of Baptism and Holy Communion to Christians, written by Protestants, for Protestants. John Wesley was a huge fan and intended that all Methodists should use the BCP, even preparing a special recension for the Methodists in North America, his famed Sunday Service Book of 1784, which he sent with Thomas Coke after ordaining him Superintendent (which is the English translation of Episkopos, which is Anglicized as Bishop, just as Elder is the literal meaning of Priest, the Anglicization of Presbyter (so the majority of Bible editions that translate Hierus, Sacerdos or Kohanim as Priest are making an error that causes confusion around the doctrine of the Priesthood of All Believers; every Christian is a Sacerdos, in that we can all pray to God directly and offer intercessory prayer on the part of others, but not every Christian is an Elder.

I want to stress in endorsing the BCP for learning about sacramental theology I am not endorsing Anglicanism or a Methodist or suggesting anyone become an Anglican or a Methodist; I myself am a Congregationalist minister and an admirer of Eastern and Oriental Orthodoxy. Also, I am a member of an ecumenical traditional liturgical association that develops public domain liturgical texts; we are finishing a draft on a modular traditional language BCP we call Editio MMXXII intended as an alternative to the 2019 BCP for the ACNA, which I was really disappointed by, an expansion of the 1928 American BCP for Continuing Anglican churches, which is good, but lacks useful content found in other BCP editions, and as a candidate for possible use by some Anglicans elsewhere in the Commonwealth, and that project stemmed from our longest in development project, which predates our founding, a traditional language Methodist service book based on the BCP.

After much discussion we finally agreed on a Lutheran project: a consolidation of the Common Service, the text, adapted from the 1789 American BCP that most traditional Lutheran hymnals are adapted from combined with Luther’s Shorter Catechism and other material, intended to reduce the number of Lutheran service books from three (the Hymnal, or Service Book, also called the Lutheran Book of Worship, Lutheran Worship, Christian Worship, the Evangelical Lutheran Hymnary, and several other names, one for each denomination, and two used by clergy, the Altar Book and Agenda) to two (The Common Service Book and a Hymnal), which is the pattern the Methodists and the Episcopalians have, despite having in the case of the Episcopalians a more complex liturgy than many Lutheran churches, but I expect Altar Books and Agendas will still be needed, and that’s fine; the main advantage will be to the laity. If we had the Lutheran book, I would link to it, because Luther’s Catechisms, the Books of Concord, and his liturgical texts, combined with the Cranmerian texts retained by the Lutherans in their Common Service, would provide an alternative to the Anglican work, but as it stands now you would have to get them from different sources (as far as any of us on the LiturgyWorks team can work out, perhaps @ViaCrucis or @MarkRohfrietsch knows of something like the BCP for Lutherans which combines both the liturgical texts, with the scripture lessons and collects, and the most important parts of the Formula of Concord, like the Longer and Shorter Catechism.

One of our other projects is fitting the Divine Office, the Eucharistic liturgy and the Propers (variable parts of the service) of the Assyrian Church of the East into one volume; presently there are like 17 but a lot of it is duplicated, and the overall liturgy is much simpler than say the Byzantine Rite, which if you include the whole thing with all possible services, would take 20 Folio-sized (very big) books to contain, although we have an Eaatern Orthodox priest who is trying to cram the essentials down into three (this has been done before, but never by one publisher in one set of books; in particular the Orthodox Prayer Book by Fr. Seraphim Nasser of 1947, nicknamed the “Nasser Five Pounder,” and the Prayers and Services of the Orthodox Church translated by Isabel Florence Hapgood in the late 19th century, have nearly everything except a Psalter and the Scripture Lessons.
 
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Athanasius377

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Yes, that is pretty much the definition that I gave some time ago. "scripture is the only infallible source of doctrine and practice" implies that scripture is either
  • perspicuous and therefore capable of accurate interpretation by any who read it
or
  • obscure and difficult to interpret and only a few can hope to arrive at a partial understanding of it
or
  • neither perspicuous nor obscure but wholly spiritual and only the Spirit led can hope to understand
The abundance of differing theologies and practises among the dozens of denominations and thousands of independent churches suggests that the holy scriptures are not perspicuous. And the claims of several participants in this thread suggests that the scriptures are wholly spiritual and only a Spirit led person can hope to understand it. Of course this view raises the question "Who are these Spirit led persons?" And what is their Spirit led interpretation on the matter of Sola Scriptura?
The Roman response is that they have the magisterium to interpret the scriptures. So if this is so, where can I find say a commentary where the Roman Magisterium has given its interpretation?
Or, is Rome in the same position as others with differing theologies derivative of the same source material? Rome is a rather large tent as observed by @chevyontheriver and there are differing theologies depending on time and rite.

To be clear I follow the magisterial reformers in asserting that scripture is the only God Breathed source of doctrine and practice. And it (Scripture) alone is ontologically is infallible, sufficient, and the vast majority is perspicuous.
 
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concretecamper

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Or, is Rome in the same position as others with differing theologies derivative of the same source material?
this comment would be false if it was said 1,500 years ago, just as it is false today.
 
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Xeno.of.athens

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The Roman response is that they have the magisterium to interpret the scriptures.
The Magisterium is exercised when disputes arise and some arbiter is required to settle the dispute. So the Magisterium has offered definitive interpretation guidance only for a few passages and left the rest of the holy scriptures open for discussion and interpretation by the church as the ordinary magisterium requires and as need arises. Hence there is no definitive "commentary" on the whole of scripture. And no one should expect such a commentary to be produced this side of the last day. Because the Church is not here to bind everything tightly and restrictively. The Church is here to build the body of Christ and demonstrate the freedom of the sons and daughters of God.

That being said the Catholic Church is not in the same position as Protestant denominations because the Catholic Church has Tradition as its source material and Tradition is wider than the 73 books of canonical scripture and obviously considerably wider than the 66 books of Protestantism. The 73 books of canonical holy scripture are core teaching for the Church but not exhaustive teaching for the Church.

Of course the Catholic Church attributes inspiration to the sacred writings alone and not to the decisions of councils or popes yet the canons of ecumenical councils which are received and approved by a successor of Saint Peter are authoritative and so are the ex cathedra decisions of popes. So these things together with the consensus of the Church Fathers give the Catholic Church a rich body of authoritative teaching from which commentaries can benefit. So if you seek a good commentary which makes good use of Catholic Church magisterial teaching then try one of the older "Catholic Commentaries" on the scriptures. And be cautious of individual commentaries by Catholic authors. The commentary work of Emeritus Pope Benedict XVI is worth consulting.
 
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Valletta

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Good Day, Eleos

I would have to go back and read "I Think" Ratzinger make the (functional) distinction here:

“It is important to note that only Scripture is defined in terms of what is: it is stated that Scripture is the word of God consigned to writing. Tradition, however, is described only functionally, in terms of what it does: it hands on the word of God, but is not the word of God.” See Joseph Ratzinger’s “The Transmission of Divine Revelation” in Herbert Vorgrimler, ed., Commentary on the Documents of Vatican II (New York: Herder and Herder, 1969), Vol. 3, p. 194.

I see that ( what you quoted) P15 would be in line with the statement that the Roman Church made at Trent.

Not so sure that functional they even in the mind of a member of the Roman Catholic members mind it works. Where the Roman Catholic member assets that the "word of God" come from tradition of the Church, seem logically to assert (functionally) that the Word of God is at some level dependent on the Church for it's existence.

Now I need to be clear here, I do believe that the RC denomination can create a Canon for it's self no problem at all. I also accept that the members have granted that authority to the (RC) leadership. I am not a member of that church so it has little impact on me.

In Him,

Bill
Our Catholic Church is not a denomination. Sacred Tradition is referred to by the Catholic Church as a perpetual "living transmission" of the Word of God. The Word of God comes from God and exists, it is not dependent upon anything but God to exist, whether transmitted orally or in written form. Now the Bible and Sacred Tradition did come through Christ's Church, that is the medium God chose.
 
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chevyontheriver

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The Roman response is that they have the magisterium to interpret the scriptures. So if this is so, where can I find say a commentary where the Roman Magisterium has given its interpretation?
Or, is Rome in the same position as others with differing theologies derivative of the same source material? Rome is a rather large tent as observed by @chevyontheriver and there are differing theologies depending on time and rite.
I think you have taken me a bit out of context. First, the role of the magisterium is not to write a Scripture commentary. There are only about two handfuls of magisterially defined verses among all of Scripture. Second, within a doctrinal core there are multiple acceptable spiritualities and theologies in the Catholic Church. Which isn’t exactly what ‘big tent’ means. You won’t find me saying the Catholic Church is a ‘big tent’ particularly in the way Episcopalianism might be described in that way. We have liturgical diversity, spiritual diversity, and theological diversity but common doctrine. I can attend a Latin mass using the Roman Canon or even the Ordinariate liturgy (I do both in addition to attending at my regular parish), follow a classical Ignatian spirituality when I read my Bible, and follow the theological method of Bernard Lonergan, St Basil, or St Thomas Aquinas. I can pray a rosary or do the liturgy of the hours, even following the 1928 BCP. Same doctrines. Different approaches. We don’t have to frog march.
 
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chevyontheriver

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At any rate mentioning the Book of Common Prayer is not just a liturgical tangent, but rather, I would encourage @Clare73 to read the 1662 English, 1929 Scottish, or 1892, 1928 American or 1979 American BCP editions, which can be found here along with many others: The Book of Common Prayer for the Episcopal Church These books provide an explanation

I particularly like these PDF recreations of the beautifully typset Standard Editions of the 1892 and 1928 editions, which were issued to each Diocese and a limit number of subscribers and are sadly the rarest of rare books, exquisitely designed by the legendary typographer JB Updike.

Also, I am a member of an ecumenical traditional liturgical association that develops public domain liturgical texts; we are finishing a draft on a modular traditional language BCP we call Editio MMXXII intended as an alternative to the 2019 BCP for the ACNA, which I was really disappointed by, an expansion of the 1928 American BCP for Continuing Anglican churches, which is good, but lacks useful content found in other BCP editions, and as a candidate for possible use by some Anglicans elsewhere in the Commonwealth, and that project stemmed from our longest in development project, which predates our founding, a traditional language Methodist service book based on the BCP.
I’m interested in this. I’ll have to check it out. The Ordinariates have been active in working out liturgical texts as well and I have their latest North American version. I have been looking for one of those 1928 BCPs as a supplement but to no avail yet.
 
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