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Yes he did. And those that believe won't perish. Those that don't believe don't have eternal life.However, Jesus said in John 5:24 that those who believe HAVE (as in possess) eternal life.
Then, in John 10:28 He said that recipients of eternal life shall never perish.
Oh. The problem is that faith is a "gift thing"; the faith that we have in God involves both knowledge, the object of that faith, and the abilty to believe that knowledge to be true. And that ability, to believe, for example, that Christ died for our sins and was ressurected from the dead some 2000 yrs ago simply requires grace, even as it also involves my will. So God must draw and move our hearts towards Himself and yet will not override our wills to do so; we can always say "no" to Him. Calvinism has it wrong.I'm tired of having to repeatedly correct people on this "faith is a gift thing".
They've now entered a state of justice, the state that man was made for, of fellowship/communion with God, the state that Adam basically forfeited in his bid for autonmy from Him. And it's a state that we can forfeit ourselves all over again. We mock God unless we now remain and grow in the seed of righteousness He implants in us at justification with the indwelling of the Spirit. There are many verses in Scripture concerning this-we must consider all of them, along with the historic understanding of the church and early fathers. Salvation is spoken of in Scripture in more than one tense-and the Church as aleays understood this quite well:John 5:24 is very clear. Those who believe HAVE eternal life, which is a gift. Both "believe" and "have" in that verse are present tense, meaning that the MOMENT one believes, being now a believer, they possess eternal life.
Lol, just ridiculous reasoning!Both verses have the same words: "have not believed". Those are the ones who will be condemned.
The words "have not believed" means "have never believed".
I'll prove it.
Let's say that you have not murdered anyone. Therefore, it can legitimately be said that you have NEVER murdered anyone.
iow, if you "have not" done something, you NEVER did it.
However, if you EVER did something, you cannot say that you "have not done it". Because you actually did it.
To be "cut off" as the Jews of Jesus' day would have understood it, meant either physical death, which does not fit the text, or being banished from Jewish society. iow, no longer useful in the Jewish system. As very proud "chosen people" this would have been a horrible thought to any Jew.
It is just so sad that you have chosen to not believe what Jesus taught in John 5:24, that those who believe HAVE eternal life, and in 10:28, that recipients of eternal life shall never perish.
Nonsense. You are just forcing a metaphor to be literal. It was never meant to be.
Yeah, I know WHAT it is, and WHERE it is. But you don't believe that those given eternal life shall never perish. In spite of what Jesus said in very clear words.
What do you think of this verse?
1 Cor 3:13 - their work will be shown for what it is, because the Day will bring it to light. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test the quality of each person’s work.
The problem is that you default to hell when you read "fire". So explain 1 Cor 3:13 then.
YOU HAVE NOT! What you have provided doesn't say or mean what you think and claim.
In effect, all that you list as requirements to receive eternal life amounts to a works based salvation, which the Bible totally rejects.
We have (are given) eternal life on the basis of faith in Christ. John 3:15,16, 5:24, 10:28.
Actually, there are quite a few. You have but to read the Scriptures. Let’s see:I have been asking (begging) anyone who has claimed this to show me the verse that teaches this. And guess what; no one has.
Why is that? Because there are no such verses. Your claim amounts to a false gospel.
I can not take this seriously. It doesn't answer the question.
The parable of the sower shows that you can stop believing, and it will cost your salvation.
Man was not created to be imperfect, to sin IOW. So there must be something wrong, something missing in him. And that something is God, Himself, with whom all things are possible. So, yes, man will ultimately achieve his perfection, his teleos, at the hands of God providing we remain in Him even as that process won't be completed until the next life. And man's will is, at God's discretion according to His wisdom, intrinsically involved in that process.If that's your view, we're done because that is simply absurd and outlandish.
Yes!! But also it's not a pretend or imputed rightouenss-it's the real thing. And yet we still sin. And this is precsely where grace and the will of man meet, where salvation is worked out together with he who works in us, where man must do good and put to death the deeds of the flesh, more expected from those given more in terms of whaterver: grace revelation/knowledge, oppotunity, time, intelligence, maturity, background, etc. God knows the heart of man far better than we do.But how can you believe v.22 after all you've claimed about the law? Righteousness is given "to all who believe".
Actually, it does. Notice that in verse 22, the third soil “becomes unfruitful”. And John 15:2 says that every branch “in Me” (that is, in Christ) that does not bear fruit, He takes away. Verse 6 goes on to say that any unfruitful branch is removed and cast into the fire (Hell).No it does not, nowhere in the parable does it state the 2nd and 3rd soils lost their Eternal Life.
You are terribly misreading John 10:28. Jesus gives eternal life to believers. And says that recipients of eternal life shall never perish.Yes he did. And those that believe won't perish.
Right. Those that don't believer never got eternal life because they never believed.Those that don't believe don't have eternal life.
Right. Unbelievers have NEVER believed and obviously reject the Son."Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God’s wrath remains on them."
Your choice of words is childish.What is so hard to understand about this? It doesn't say that, if once upon a Time you believed in 5th grade, you still have eternal life.
Well, it's not. Believing is NOT a gift. Believing comes from the heart, not God. Rom 10:10.Oh. The problem is that faith is a "gift thing"
This obviousy refers to progressive sanctification, or the present tense of salvation, and is spiritual maturity.present:
"...continue to work out your salvation with fear and trembling," Phil 2:12
The problem with your view is that in NONE of these warnings do we find anything about losing salvation. If salvation could be lost, Jesus would NEVER have said John 10:28 AND there would be at least 1 very clear verse stating that.And warnings and admonitions and encouragements to believers to remain in the faith, remain in Christ, persevere, be vigilant, be holy, be perfect, do good, obey the commandments wash one's robes, purify oneself, clean the inside so the outside will be clean, are replete in Scripture, with eternal life at stake.
I'll just bet you can't prove your claim.Lol, just ridiculous reasoning!
That changes nothing. My example could be about anything.Murder is something you do at one point in time, belief and unbelief can change daily, or moment by moment.
Not true at all. They knew exactly what Jesus meant. Go through the Pentateuch and see how many times the words "cut off" were used.As we know, the first century Jews did not understand Jesus most of the time, because He was most often referring to spiritual matters and they were thinking physical.
This is impossible because man is BORN spiritually dead. There's no way to spiritually die AGAIN. If there were, there would be a verse. Once being born again, that new birth CANNOT DIE.As the parable says at the beginning, “The Kingdom of God is like…”. He was referring to the Kingdom which is spiritual in nature, not physical.
Jesus was not referring to being thrown out of the Jewish nation, or physical death. He is referring to spiritual death; eternal spiritual death.
OH, so Jesus LIED in John 5:24 then??We do not possess eternal life until we receive it at Judgement.
Quote Scripture. I don't believe you.We have the guarantee of it IF we endure, but we do not get it if we do not endure to the end.
There is NO WAY for a born again person, who HAS eternal life, to die again.You fail to see the applicability of the metaphor. Christ is the vine, the root, the life giving power in us. If we (the branches) are cut off from Him, we lose life. Dead branches are thrown into the fire (Hell). There is no life in the branches if they are cut off and not grafted back in.
Who says mental assent is "passise". That might be your own opinion, but it's wrong.Yes, active, action producing FAITH in Christ, not passive mental assent.
yep. And NONE of the warnings contain anything about losing salvation.These are 15 distinct passages, and there are many more, warning that we remain, abide, endure, in Christ, steadfast, and not drawn away by false teaching.
The "there must be something wrong" gives away your own flawed opinions. Who says something must be wrong?Man was not created to be imperfect, to sin IOW. So there must be something wrong, something missing in him.
Huh? Are you suggesting that God was "missing in him"? Absurd.And that something is God, Himself, with whom all things are possible.
No, only believers, not "man" will reach perfection. But not in this lifetime. Only when they step into eternity without their sin nature.So, yes, man will ultimately achieve his perfection, his teleos, at the hands of God providing we remain in Him even as that process won't be completed until the next life. And man's will is, at God's discretion according to His wisdom, intrinsically involved in that process.
I know you're only trying to cheapen the idea of eternal security, but Jesus clearly taught it from John 5:24 and John 10:28. Like it or not.Either way, faith and grace are not get-out-of-hell free cards. They're simply the authentic means, the pathway, to that end, to salvation, to God.
Why would anyone assume/presume that means loss of salvation.Actually, it does. Notice that in verse 22, the third soil “becomes unfruitful”.
You are simply spiritualize Jesus' metaphor to fit your own unbiblical theology.And John 15:2 says that every branch “in Me” (that is, in Christ) that does not bear fruit, He takes away. Verse 6 goes on to say that any unfruitful branch is removed and cast into the fire (Hell).
Yet there's plenty of verse saying if you don't believe ( present tense) you don't have eternal life.The point remains that "have not believed" means "have NEVER believed" whether or not you grasp that concept
Quote Scripture. I don't believe you.
Hmm. You must have skipped over it, since it was right in the middle (not that all of them didn’t say so), but let me repeat one verse out of those.yep. And NONE of the warnings contain anything about losing salvation.
Since both terms can be used interchangeably, this is a matter of hair-splitting at this point IMO -and I'm not sure the reason why. A basic concept of the faith is that man (Adam) broke relationship with God, whatever that relationship consisted of, by a willful act of disobedeince. He had become his own "god" for all practical purposes, having appropriated the authority to determine right and wrong for himself-and God allowed him the freedom to do just that-with the consequences that followed. Man had dis-fellowshipped, excommunicated himself from God-it can be stated in many ways. And that separation is the basis of man's death. And that separation is the reason we don't know God from birth now, the personal knowledge spoken of in Jer 31:34, John 17:3, John's 1 letter, etc. Man is lost. Jesus came to reconcile man with God, first of all by revealing His true "face" so that we may know Him, and by knowing Him we may believe in, hope in, and, most importantly, come to love Him. Relationship/fellowship restored-and brought to an even higher level yet.You misunderstand the difference between fellowship and relationship.
Let's use the prodigal for an example. The father and son have a permanent relationship. iow, there is no way to undo that relationship. And in the parable the son continued to be his son. However, what died and was lost was fellowship. In first Century Palestine, any idiot kid who asked for his inheritance while his father was still alive was in essence telling ol' dad that he wished he were dead. That's how shocking Jesus' parable was for those He told it to. The prodigal was very rude and disgusting by what he was asking for. That's the reason the older son had so little regard for his idiot brother. But the parable was about God's grace, plus confession of sin and repentance (returning) which is restoration of fellowship.
So, the relationship continued because it is PERMANENT. But fellowship is the state of the relationship.
Or take marriage as another example. In God's economy, marriage is to be PERMANENT. However, within that relationship, there can be loss of fellowship when one offends the other.
Sure, until one reads the rest of Scripture.The only requirement for salvation is trusting in Jesus Christ as Savior.
Ok, although the passage says otherwise.The obligation is in NO PART a requirement for salvation.
You are simply conflating two different issues. Salvation and spiritual growth.
Of course, the virtues of faith, hope, and love, and man's particaption in accepting and expressing those gifts, are not part of salvation.This is not related to getting saved in any way.
No, I read what Christ said explicitly. He said that any branch that is “IN HIM” that does not produce fruit will be “CUT OFF FROM HIM” and thrown into the fire. To be cut off from the tree (Jesus, the LIFE) is to be cut off from Heaven (where there will be no more death). And to be thrown into the fire is to be thrown into Hell (the second death).Why would anyone assume/presume that means loss of salvation.
It simply means the plant failed to produce fruit, a metaphor for a believer to produce works. The plant didn't die, or the text would have said so.
You are simply spiritualize Jesus' metaphor to fit your own unbiblical theology.
Jesus used a farming metaphor. When a branch fails to produce, the farmer discards it from service. Removes from the tree. Nothing about hell.
But, your opinions clearly show that you reject what Jesus taught about those who receive eternal life.
Actually, it does. Notice that in verse 22, the third soil “becomes unfruitful”. And John 15:2 says that every branch “in Me” (that is, in Christ) that does not bear fruit, He takes away. Verse 6 goes on to say that any unfruitful branch is removed and cast into the fire (Hell).
Several?? Rather than just say you did, please do it again.I already quoted several.
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