#NunsToo

[Zoii]

The Catholic sex abuse you haven't heard of — yes, #NunsToo

Priests held nuns in 'sexual slavery', Pope admits

Child abuse, Sexual abuse of nuns, and general abuses of power - Is it time to acknowledge that the patriarchal and hierarchical constructs within Christianity, has failed 50% of the religious congregation.

To suppose these issues are aggregated only in the Catholic Church is not only incorrect, but perpetuates the problems existing.

 

[Dave-W]

I have heard such rumors since I was a child.

 

[FireDragon76]

To suppose these issues are aggregated only in the Catholic Church is not only incorrect, but perpetuates the problems existing.

1) The Catholic Church has unique issues due to its hierarchical, authoritarian structure that other Christian bodies simply do not have.

2) It is true that sexual abuse exists outside in other religious denominations but I believe that it is unrealistic to insist a religion's legitimacy is dependent on the moral perfection of its adherents.

 

[TuxAme]

Christianity has failed no one- people have failed those who were entrusted to their care. "The patriarchy" and the Church's hierarchy are not to blame for the poor choices of its members.

 

[Not David]

How is the Patriarchy responsible for that?

 

[dzheremi]

1) The Catholic Church has unique issues due to its hierarchical, authoritarian structure that other Christian bodies simply do not have.

My Church is just as hierarchical and 'authoritarian' (we had a Pope before the Romans or anyone else had one), and yet we don't have sex abuse crises. There was a case a few years ago of a monk in one of the monasteries in Egypt, may God have mercy on him, who apparently slept with female pilgrims in his dwelling, and upon being discovered he was laicized, banished from the monastery, and not allowed to join any of the neighboring communities for fear that he would spread his corruption there as well. After the more recent horrific murder of HG Bishop Epiphanius, may God receive Him, the monk under suspicion was handed over to the police, confessed, and is now awaiting some kind of sentencing (I'm not sure what stage they're at, honestly, because I'm not really aware of the intricacies of the Egyptian legal system). HH Pope Tawadros in response ordered all monastics off of social media, and himself left all social media platforms, and the Holy Synod suspended the intake of any new novice monks anywhere in the world for a full year, while the Church works to cleanse the rot from the affected monastic communities and contain this evil.

None of this changes what has already happened, but a lot depends on how those in authority respond. While it is possible that we may never know every detail of what appears to have been a plot to murder HG Bishop Epiphanius (what with another monk attempting suicide in the wake of the murder; the entire thing is extremely bizarre and hints at something very dark going on at the holy monastery of St. Macarius, where this all happened), but the authorities have been granted the necessary access to the scene and the people involved in order to do their jobs, and the Church is taking serious stock of what is going on, and enforcing some sensible controls in light of the details we do know about what has happened. I think this is the least we can expect to see happen, as laypeople. I would rather not hear absolutely everything, out of respect for the murdered bishop and the pain it is very obvious it is causing the Coptic people and their Church, but I am comforted that at least something is being done.

Just a counterpoint as to how other very hierarchical churches deal with their own problems. This is why I don't think the problem is in being hierarchical in itself, but in how the hierarchy responds. If the Holy Synod had not come together and issued its ban on receiving new monks, and gone with the order that all monastics get off of social media, and so on, then I'd feel much less confident that the leadership is taking this seriously.

2) It is true that sexual abuse exists outside in other religious denominations but I believe that it is unrealistic to insist a religion's legitimacy is dependent on the moral perfection of its adherents.

I hate to be crude, but not raping nuns and children is not a matter of "moral perfection" -- it's not being a monster.

 

[FireDragon76]

I don't think the Coptic Pope is exactly like the Roman Pope that inspired a religious culture of unquestioning clericalism for hundreds of years.

Those are the sort of structures in the RCC that I think are problematic. Catholics put clergy on pedestals, and the degree to which they did so is unique to Catholicism. I was watching an old movie from the 80's last week (Flashdance), and in one scene the protagonist goes into a confessional and confesses to thinking about sex, and dismisses the idea the priest even thinks about sex (as if he's not a human being). That's the sort of perception of clericalism that existed.

Nevertheless, point #2 is important. With a religion that encompasses billions of people, I do not think it is surprising that there will be a great deal of corruption, as human beings are generally prone to become corrupt. As Pr. Nadia Bolz-Weber used to inform her congregation, "We are the Church, and we will disappoint you". (why do you think I have the Ship of Fools as my icon?).

 

[dzheremi]

I don't think the Coptic Pope is exactly like the Roman Pope that inspired a religious culture of unquestioning clericalism for hundreds of years.

Certainly not. I just meant that as an example of how being hierarchical is not in itself the problem. I definitely agree that there is a certain obsequiousness in how some Catholics approach their Pope that can lead to very unhealthy situations and horrific abuses of power. I'm pretty sure even staunch Roman Catholics would agree with that, at least in principle/intellectually.

Those are the sort of structures in the RCC that I think are problematic. Catholics put clergy on pedestals, and the degree to which they did so is unique to Catholicism. I was watching an old movie from the 80's last week (Flashdance), and in one scene the protagonist goes into a confessional and confesses to thinking about sex, and dismisses the idea the priest even thinks about sex (as if he's not a human being). That's the sort of perception of clericalism that existed.

Hmm. Is that a result of clericalism in itself (power concentrated in the hands of clergy), or is that something that has built up around the uniquely Roman discipline of clerical celibacy? Because I could see that not being the case with Eastern Catholics, whose clergy are married just as they are in their mother Orthodox churches. When you meet the priest, and his wife, and their kids it's kinda hard to maintain any illusions that he's not a normal man, in that regard...

I don't want to go on and on, but I think the Roman Catholic Church needs to take a serious look at its "indellible mark" theology concerning its sacraments, particularly that of ordination. They have, as I understand it from their catechism, this idea that there is a kind of ontological change in the man upon his ordination that could be said to contribute to the sense of spiritual (and temporal/legal) invulnerability that surrounds their priesthood, sometimes to very bad ends. If the holy orders were understood, as they historically have been (and still are, in the Orthodox faith), to be positions given by the Church to be taken away by the Church in cases where they need to be, maybe people would not be hesitant to speak up in cases of abuse for fear that nobody will believe them or that it will be seen as challenging the Church theologically or whatever. I don't know. It wouldn't stop bad men from becoming priests (that's something that desperately needs oversight in seminaries, apparently), but it would certainly stop them from continuing to be priests, and would send a strong signal that there's more than words behind the calls for reform.

 

[Jonaitis]

I believe one of the problem surrounding this particular issue isn't some sort of "patriarchal and hierarchical constructs," but likely due to the celibate nature of the clergy (as well as our inherent corruption). We don't hear as much about this in the Eastern Orthodox Churches to the same degree as the Roman Catholic Church.

 

[FireDragon76]

For a while over a decade ago I was hanging out in an Anglican parish that was serious contemplating becoming Catholic- more Catholic than the Pope, even. The reason I did not do so was I did not care for the demeanor of the priests at all. They were very much authoritarians. They spent more time preaching about the catechism than about Jesus. And one of the priests was into Opus Dei, which I had heard about and it sounded pretty much like a cult (and the leader of Opus Dei himself was accused of sexual abuse).

Yes, Orthodox are relatively authoritarian as well, but it's nothing compared to what Catholic traditionalists accept as normal.

 

[Sketcher]

The Catholic sex abuse you haven't heard of — yes, #NunsToo

Priests held nuns in 'sexual slavery', Pope admits

Child abuse, Sexual abuse of nuns, and general abuses of power - Is it time to acknowledge that the patriarchal and hierarchical constructs within Christianity, has failed 50% of the religious congregation.

To suppose these issues are aggregated only in the Catholic Church is not only incorrect, but perpetuates the problems existing.

But when it comes to hierarchies especially, the Catholic one is very different from many Protestant ones, and much older. So it's really an apples and oranges comparison when you compare the Catholic hierarchy with almost any other. And while sexual abuse is a sin that does not depend on denominational hierarchies, the Catholic sexual abuse that we're hearing more and more about developed within the context of the Catholic hierarchy, so we have special considerations. One of them being, with the organized rings that we are now discovering, how long have they been around? The hierarchy that allowed that to grow and perpetuate in the shadows has been around for hundreds of years. I shudder to think that there might have been organized rings of sexual predators that have been around for hundreds of years.

And I wouldn't be surprised to hear credible stories of nuns sexually abusing boys at this point, either.

 

[Zoii]

"The patriarchy" and the Church's hierarchy are not to blame for the poor choices of its members.

That is not the determination of the Royal Commission into Child Sexual Abuse.

 

[zephcom]

1) The Catholic Church has unique issues due to its hierarchical, authoritarian structure that other Christian bodies simply do not have.

2) It is true that sexual abuse exists outside in other religious denominations but I believe that it is unrealistic to insist a religion's legitimacy is dependent on the moral perfection of its adherents.

It is true that sexual abuse exists outside and in other denominations. But I think it is wrong to structure the argument around whether a religion's legitimacy is dependent on the moral perfection of its adherents. I'm not aware of anyone who thinks the Catholic Church, the SBC or the local city council should display 'moral perfection'.

The issue is completely about -HOW- the institution responds when sexual abuse is discovered. Does the institution respond by hiding the abuse and protecting the abuser and the institution or does it respond by alerting civil authorities and cooperating fully with those authorities?

It is a simple distinction. And for decades the Catholic Church has pretended that they don't need to get civil authorities involved in what they consider an 'internal issue'. They can deal all they like with an offending priest's soul, but until they start turning to the civil authorities to handle the secular aspect of the abuse, they will continue to receive my scorn and the scorn of much of the world.