Number One Flaw in Cessationism

[swordsman1]

Right, that is why I don't believe 1 Corinthians 14:15 about "praying with the understanding" is about praying in your native language, but rather is praying with the gift of interpretation of tongues.

For once I agree with you.

How are you lead by the Spirit if you can't hear what He is saying?

It means to dwell consciously in the presence of the Holy Spirit himself. So to pray “in the Spirit” is to pray with the conscious awareness of God’s presence.

Don't you know that it is through the gifts of the Spirit that you CAN hear His voice?

We hear his voice by reading scripture.

As far as praying intercession for the saints that might be in peril we don't know exactly what they need to pray 100% accurately, but God knows. That is when we use prayer language to pray His perfect will when we don't know, or if it is none of our business. For instance, someone I know might be involved with pornography, but I only know by the Spirit that he needs prayer, but I don't know what. I would pray in tongues.

Eph 6:18 "And pray in the Spirit on all occasions with all kinds of prayers and requests."

You can't make requests if you don't no what you are praying for.

 

[JAL]

Actually, the point of the whole chapter was about Love as the greatest gift among two others, and that that will not vanish. However, the others will vanish away; cease; stop from being used.

I have never heard your view point before, though comparing to scriptures, it is wrong.

So did the babe, of Paul's analogy in chapter 13:

(A) MATURE in the three faculties mentioned? OR
(B) did he permanently cease from those three faculties?

Because if A is correct, then the cessationist position seems to stand in utter conflict with Paul's motif.

I too could grab a handful of quotes from scholars that have "switch sides". I dont care really what they say, only scripture. Does it compare to what scripture says, is what I am about.

Actually I'd be surprised if you could show examples where a theologian who stands firmly - without ambivalence - on an issue for 20 years is still holding that position meanwhile conceding all the assumptions of his opponents.

Furthermore that's not a rebuttal of the arguments - the specifics of my exegesis at 1Cor 13:8-12.

 

[swordsman1]

Exactly. I was in church for 30 years, loving Jesus and never had any of these gifts. I didn't have an answer to prayer either in all that time. But since I was filled with the Spirit and exhibit these signs, my life is a witness of the truth of believing in Jesus.

You think "follow" means to follow in time sometime after they believe?

Think again. The word is parakoloutheō

to follow, or accompany closely; to accompany, attend, characterize, Mk. 16:17; to follow with the thoughts, trace, Lk. 1:3; to conform to, 1 Tim. 4:6; 2 Tim. 3:10*​

It means to accompany, which is why other translations have:

And these signs will accompany those who believe (NIV)

And these signs will accompany those who believe (ESV)

These signs will accompany those who have believed (NASB)

etc, etc​

 

[swordsman1]

Do you mean that it isn't a real cat in a real bag? LOL

I'll take that as a "No, I have no evidence. I just made up the idea about idioms in Mark 16".

 

[swordsman1]

No, it is speaking of our private prayer language, because it is TO God, not FROM God. It doesn't require interpretation.

Corinthian tongues DOES require interpretation. Carry on reading.... "The one who prophesies is greater than the one who speaks in tongues, unless someone interprets, so that the church may be edified."

Am I correct in assuming that you believe there is nothing supernatural about speaking in tongues or interpretation of tongues? That we are given a language we know and converse in; or we need to always have multi-lingual people in our church to interpret for a foreigner?

Tongues was the supernatural ability to speak a foreign language you have never learned. As Acts 2 makes clear. There is no other definition. The gift of Interpretation is the supernatural ability to translate a language you have never learned.

 

[swordsman1]

But MOST LIKELY this is because it's a language currently unknown to men (either an ancient human language or perhaps an angelic language - perhaps even a language known only to God Himself).

Where is your evidence that today's tongues is most likely an angelic language?

And if is an ancient human language why haven't the linguists who have studied glossolalia spotted it?

But doesn't that have a context? I don't think he's saying COMPLETE silence. Isn't he saying, 'Silent to the church' (speaking quietly to himself would qualify). Because the verse continues "...and speak to himself and God".

Silent means silent. It never means to speak quietly.

Thayers Greek Lexicon
σιγάω, σίγω; 1 aorist ἐσίγησα; perfect passive participle σεσιγημενος; (σιγή); from Homer down; to keep silence, hold one's peace: Luke 9:36; Luke 18:39 L T Tr WH; (Luke 20:26); Acts 12:17; Acts 15:12; 1 Corinthians 14:28, 30, 34; passive, to be kept in silence, be concealed, Romans 16:25. (Synonym: see ἡσυχάζω.)​

That sounds pretty sanctimonious. You honestly sound like a Pharisee. Self-edification isn't to the exclusion of ministering to God. When you pray or sing a tongue to God, you are fellowshipping with Him. That's an abuse? Let's get real. I'm beginning to suspect you have no idea how much God loves you and is dying to hear from you.

Not when it is plainly stated in scripture:

1 Cor 12:7 Now to each one the manifestation of the Spirit is given for the common good.

1 Peter 4:10 Each of you should use whatever gift you have received to serve others,

Right. No apodictic evidence. Just like there is no apodictic evidence that they did NOT.

But there is evidence that tongues was foreign human languages. Acts 2.

 

[swordsman1]

I personally believe in the possibility of:
- faith that removes mountains

You believe people have literally removed mountains?

- a man giving up all his possessions
- a man surrendering himself to the flames

A man would give up ALL of his possessions, including the clothes he is wearing?

Being martyred is the normal operation of the gift of giving?

 

[JAL]

You believe people have literally removed mountains?

I don't know if it's happened in the past. But I believe that God is willing to do this it would benefit mankind.

A man would give up ALL of his possessions, including the clothes he is wearing?

Sure. I don't think that most people would do it, but it's not outside the realm of possibility.

Being martyred is the normal operation of the gift of giving?

Again, it need not be the norm. The question is whether Paul's hyperbole UTTERLY rules out all these things and, in so doing, rules out angelic tongues. That's just not the the case.

 

[JAL]

Where is your evidence that today's tongues is most likely an angelic language?

That's not what I said.

And if is an ancient human language why haven't the linguists who have studied glossolalia spotted it?

That's a fair point but first of all it delves into the nature of the gift (might be a little more complex than you suspect) and 2ndly it is my opinion that many of today's examples are not genuine.

Silent means silent. It never means to speak quietly.

Then how do you make sense of the rest of the verse?

Not when it is plainly stated in scripture:
1 Cor 12:7 Now to each one the manifestation of the Spirit is given for the common good.

Context. In that context Paul is probably referring to public manifestations, not private edification.

1 Peter 4:10 Each of you should use whatever gift you have received to serve others,

But ministring to God is a way of serving others. He inhabits the praises of His people. The more prayer/praise, the more blessing for all of us.

But there is evidence that tongues was foreign human languages. Acts 2.

Nope. Act is prophecy, not the gift of tongues.

 

[CharismaticLady]

It means to dwell consciously in the presence of the Holy Spirit himself. So to pray “in the Spirit” is to pray with the conscious awareness of God’s presence.

No, it doesn't. Not exactly anyway. The only way for you to receive what you pray for is for you to know without doubt what God is saying. You CAN know what He is saying if you have one of the 'hearing' gifts of the Spirit, such as Word of Wisdom, Word of Knowledge, or Prophecy, which you don't believe are around today. So if you don't know what His will is in a situation, praying in tongues provides praying His perfect will.

We hear his voice by reading scripture.

Why even pray if your answer is in Scripture? It is interesting that Scripture tells us we will be able to hear His voice, and yet you don't believe the Scriptures you revere.

Eph 6:18 "And pray in the Spirit on all occasions with all kinds of prayers and requests."

You can't make requests if you don't no what you are praying for.

You purposefully stopped short. ROFL But I happen to have a good memory of the actual Scripture.

"for all God's people."

When you are in intercession for the people in your church or all your relatives, or whatever, you will not know what you need to specifically pray for; but, the Spirit does. And as I said before, sometimes, it's none of your business, but God wants you to pray His perfect will in that situation anyway, and has equipped you to do so - prayer language.

 

[CharismaticLady]

You think "follow" means to follow in time sometime after they believe?

Think again. The word is parakoloutheō

to follow, or accompany closely; to accompany, attend, characterize, Mk. 16:17; to follow with the thoughts, trace, Lk. 1:3; to conform to, 1 Tim. 4:6; 2 Tim. 3:10*​

It means to accompany, which is why other translations have:

And these signs will accompany those who believe (NIV)

And these signs will accompany those who believe (ESV)

These signs will accompany those who have believed (NASB)

etc, etc​

And that is what I meant. Sorry, if you don't know what I'm talking about. Ever since February 9, 1977 I immediately had gifts of the Spirit, and in time, they have increased, and my life is a walking testimony.

 

[CharismaticLady]

I'll take that as a "No, I have no evidence. I just made up the idea about idioms in Mark 16".

No, I just thought you were kidding, so I made a joke. Evidently you are not aware of Hebrew idioms even though knowing what the authors are saying makes the Scriptures come alive. But Luke was part Greek so this may be clearer for you.

Luke 10:19
Behold, I give you the authority to trample on serpents and scorpions, and over all the power of the enemy, and nothing shall by any means hurt you.

I have had divine protection on many occasions since becoming born again of the Spirit.

 

[CharismaticLady]

Corinthian tongues DOES require interpretation. Carry on reading.... "The one who prophesies is greater than the one who speaks in tongues, unless someone interprets, so that the church may be edified."

Paul is talking about both types of tongues in 1 Corinthians 14, not just the gift in 1 Corinthians 12, but the prayer language without interpretation of Mark 16.

Paul is saying, our prayer language that no one can understand, that is just TO God, is not for inside the congregation; that is for the gift of diverse kinds of tongues that requires interpretation. And the gift should only be limited to 2-3 and 1 interprets them.

Besides not everyone has the gift of tongues for the profit of all as 1 Corinthians 12:30 says. And not everyone can interpret tongues either. They are special gifts for only those the Spirit gives them to. They are like an office in the church, same as the rest of the offices in that passage. But as in Mark 16 the signs following those who believe and are baptized is for all of us, and no mention of interpretation is mentioned.

27 Now you are the body of Christ, and members individually. 28 And God has appointed these in the church: first apostles, second prophets, third teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, administrations, varieties of tongues. 29 Are all apostles? Are all prophets? Are all teachers? Are all workers of miracles? 30 Do all have gifts of healings? Do all speak with tongues? Do all interpret?

Tongues was the supernatural ability to speak a foreign language you have never learned. As Acts 2 makes clear. There is no other definition.

You are not comprehending how the emphasis was on the hearing in Acts 2. All your brain is focused on is the speaking, and you are blinded to the real truth. Each person of different countries heard them (like a choir) speaking is own language. Like, I was hearing a different language than the language you were hearing. To one the 'choir' was speaking Japanese. Another heard the 'choir' speaking Russian, as examples.

The gift of Interpretation is the supernatural ability to translate a language you have never learned.

It is called the gift of interpretation of tongues, not the gift of translation of tongues. When spoken it could be a commentary of the message. It is equal with prophecy. It is like when God speaks to me. I will hear a few words, but the wisdom and knowledge that accompanies those words are what those few words mean in my case, and how they apply to me. That is "interpretation." (Like Luke's interpretation of the Hebrew idiom that Mark wrote.)

 

[JAL]

The question was asked what is the number one flaw in cessationism?

Number 1 Answer is

it’s Flawless.

now proceed

hope this helps !!!

I realize this post was largely facetious and frankly I don't even know what your beliefs are but I decided to use it as an occasion to vent. Here's my beef with cessationism. Paul defined a church like this:

"And God has placed in the church first of all apostles, second prophets, third teachers, then miracles, then gifts of healing, of helping, of guidance, and of different kinds of tongues" (1Cor 12).

Rejecting the biblical definition of the church, inevitably culminates in replacing it with some OTHER definition - a man-made definition. And once we decided to shove our man-made definitions of the church down God's throat, we pretty much closed the door on revival. Here's how God feels about man-made ordinances:

"Aaron’s sons Nadab and Abihu took their censers, put fire in them and added incense; and they offered unauthorized fire before the Lord, contrary to his command. So fire came out from the presence of the Lord and consumed them, and they died before the Lord" (Lev 10).

In point of fact I'm not opposed to man-made institutions since, after all, we cannot force God to raise up fresh apostles. All we can do is pray and wait on Him and thus, in the meantime, we must settle for man-made institutions. But when these leaders and institutions pretend (insist) that they are the real thing, they cause the sheep to support, celebrate, and perpetuate unauthorized fire.

Cessationism seems to defy credulity. Why so? Most Christians would probably regard the OT as an instruction manual reasonably valid for about 1,000 years. Does the cessationist have equal confidence in the NT? Not at all. In his eyes, its ecclesiological system became obsolete less than 50 years from the day it was penned! Is God such a poor instructor that He couldn't find a way to define a governmental system for us? All we got from Him is an obsolete definition? Really?

The rest of the believers can preach whatever definition they want. As for me, I stand by Paul's definition:

"And God has placed in the church first of all apostles, second prophets, third teachers, then miracles, then gifts of healing, of helping, of guidance, and of different kinds of tongues" (1Cor 12).

 

[GoldenKingGaze]

Funny how you think this is your answer.

I have applied the Greek language multiple times for you and you refuse to accept them. Nowhere in the Greek language does this ever mean gibberish utterances.

γλῶσσα glōssa, gloce-sah'
the tongue, a member of the body, an organ of speech; a tongue; the language or dialect used by a particular people distinct from that of other nations.

of uncertain affinity; the tongue; by implication, a language (specially, one naturally unacquired):—tongue.


"In order for the first question to be understood, the Bible student must get a picture of the overall context of 1 Corinthians 14, and the circumstances that prevailed in the assemblies of those Christians.

Information that is provided by several passages within the chapter reveals that some of the Corinthian saints, who possessed the divine gift of being able to speak in foreign languages [ordinary human tongues] in a supernatural manner, were abusing that gift. If, therefore, a person had the divinely bestowed gift of speaking in a “tongue,” he was to exercise that gift only in an assembly where the same language was known — unless there was an interpreter present.

Let us illustrate the matter more concretely. Suppose a brother had been granted the ability to speak the Punic language, as the people of Melita did (where Paul was shipwrecked — Acts 28:1). He could exercise that gift only in a setting where the people who spoke that tongue were present — unless there was another brother nearby who possessed the gift of interpretation. In such a case, the message could be conveyed intelligibly through the interpreter.

With this background in mind, consider now the fact that Paul, in 1 Corinthians 14:2, addresses an abuse of this procedure. If we may be permitted to expand and paraphrase the apostle’s admonition, this would be the sense of it.

For the one who speaks in a tongue [to an audience unfamiliar with his language], is not speaking to men [in any meaningful way], but to God [since only God would be able to know what was being said]; for no one [in this audience] would understand, but in his spirit he [the speaker] would be speaking mysteries [that which could not be understood due to the language barrier] to his alien audience.

In the circumstance just described, the group would hear a sound, but since they could not comprehend the message, nothing would be revealed; the message would remain a mystery (obscured).

The tongue thus contemplated was not some mysterious, ecstatic utterance by which the speaker personally communicated with God (as modern Pentecostals claim); instead, it was a language inaccessible to the audience by virtue of the circumstances, but one which the speaker might exercise in personally speaking to God in prayer.

Finally, verse 28 reiterates the same point. If the person who possesses the tongue gift is within an audience that is unacquainted with the language he is able to speak, and there is no interpreter available, he must keep silent. He may commune with God silently [i.e., mentally], but his speaking would be of no use to the congregation in such a situation as that contemplated above, and thus was prohibited.

These texts, then, properly understood, provide no support for the use of so-called ecstatic tongues." - Wayne Jackson
What Are the So-called "Mystery" Tongues of 1 Corinthians 14?

Oh, and dont think I didnt notice your avoidance of the main point, that miracles have ceased, post #3 I believe. Not to mention your deflection of Acts 2 and its clear and precise context and grammar usage. That's why you had to attempt to pull what you thought was your "Ace in the hole", but really did more damage to your stance than good. It also still has no proof that the audience of the disciples in Acts 2 had any powers whatsoever. Because they didnt. I know it, and deep down you know it (seem to be suffering "denial in psychology").

Wikipedia has an interesting article on this. "Glossolalia".

Paul was careful not to rebuke praying in tongues altogether but just gave his order. For the Corinthians public style ministry, open to non believers... a certain order. He also in that setting or context said women must not speak in the service, and we'd have to be there to know exactly what that meant, or find a good commentary. Like Gordon Fee's works.

We know Paul used the Greek word for tongues in association with angelic tongues. This is not so extraordinary. Angels fight against the dark angels. For spiritual warfare this is the best language we can obtain.

My tongues have been interpreted during prayer and were prayers. The AOG as linked in wikipedia has a view of tongues being spoken in public or used in private prayer.

 

[GoldenKingGaze]

#225



Yes, I do see that. I agree with the scripture. I disagree with how you are reporting it only do to the context and other scripture that relates.

γλῶσσα glōssa, gloce-sah'; of uncertain affinity; the tongue; by implication, a language (specially, one naturally unacquired):—tongue; the language or dialect used by a particular people distinct from that of other nations

Both Acts 2 and 1 Corinthians 14 use the same word for "tongue(s)". This definition above is the Koine Greek meaning for that word in the NT. The entire NT was written in that Greek.

By the definition alone, people with this gift spoke languages of a nation(s) that they had not spoken before. Not some gibberish people do now days. So it stands to reason even more so by context, and the definition of the word, that this gift granted someone the ability to speak at least one language that the user had not know before, that the language granted was understood by at least that one nation of people.

Acts 2
6 Now when this was noised abroad, the multitude came together, and were confounded, because that every man heard them speak in his own language.

7 And they were all amazed and marvelled, saying one to another, Behold, are not all these which speak Galilaeans?

8 And how hear we every man in our own tongue, wherein we were born?

In 1 Corinthians, the Corinthians were abusing their gifts. Paul had to straighten them out. Paul went on a tangent from at least 1 Corinthians 12 to 14 about gifts.

If you continue in 1 Corinthians 14 you find that you need another person who can speak that nations language and the language you speak so he can interpret.

27 If any man speak in an unknown tongue, let it be by two, or at the most by three, and that by course; and let one interpret.

28 But if there be no interpreter, let him keep silence in the church; and let him speak to himself, and to God.

If you only speak English, and you go to people who only speak German....
2 For he that speaketh in an unknown tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth him; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries.

Well yeah God understands you and knows what your saying, but the people who speak German have no clue what you say. So you need an interpreter. One who knows both German and English. If you dont have that interpreter....

6 Now, brethren, if I come unto you speaking with tongues, what shall I profit you, except I shall speak to you either by revelation, or by knowledge, or by prophesying, or by doctrine?

27 If any man speak in an unknown tongue, let it be by two, or at the most by three, and that by course; and let one interpret.

28 But if there be no interpreter, let him keep silence in the church; and let him speak to himself, and to God.

The gift of tongues is merely the ability to speak a language one has had no study or knowledge of, and is able to speak it suddenly with the Holy Spirits granting. A language of any number of nations on earth. Not this unintelligible gibberish they do now days.

It is not gibberish. It is sometimes poetic, can be sung, can be in harmony, and leads onto the revealing of secret thoughts with encouragement according to the scriptures.

It has been know to be a foreign language.

I have heard interpretations several times and then it is like prophecy.

It is practical, about giving peace and growing in love, not rules. People can use words of knowledge for work. It is not like Paul's decency is Moses' law.

 

[GoldenKingGaze]

Yes, reason....
Acts 2
4 And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues,
Acts 10
44 While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word.

45 And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost.

46 For they heard them speak with tongues
Acts 19
6...the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied.


Scripture doesnt say. But all the people heard their language Acts 2

because that every man heard them speak in his own language.

7 And they were all amazed and marvelled, saying one to another, Behold, are not all these which speak Galilaeans?

8 And how hear we every man in our own tongue, wherein we were born?

9 Parthians, and Medes, and Elamites, and the dwellers in Mesopotamia, and in Judaea, and Cappadocia, in Pontus, and Asia,

10 Phrygia, and Pamphylia, in Egypt, and in the parts of Libya about Cyrene, and strangers of Rome, Jews and proselytes,

11 Cretes and Arabians, we do hear them speak in our tongues the wonderful works of God.

In this chapter, the Holy Spirit has just been sent to replace Jesus. All were speaking at once in known tongues until the observation was made and they commented. Following this Peter calls to speak and explains they are not drunk... Prophesying is not drunken. We don't exactly know why they looked drunk that morning. This is not like Paul's church in Corinth.

Satan won't counterfeit giving people peace, with no catches, like, they must worship an idol... peace, faith, courage, love, come from tongues and won't come from Satan, and these things happen where tongues are used.

 

[GoldenKingGaze]

Granted by the Holy Spirit, yes. Peter knew it as he begins his preaching here....

14 But Peter, standing up with the eleven, lifted up his voice, and said unto them, Ye men of Judaea, and all ye that dwell at Jerusalem, be this known unto you, and hearken to my words

The problem is people want to say these gifts still happen. They dont. If one is still around, the others are,

And I dont see people healing stage 4 cancers and such.

Also, the gifts were to confirm the word, and show that Jesus was the Christ. Mark 16:20 for example.

We do not need to confirm the word. We already have a complete bible. It was finished with the last apostle John. Bam. No more gifts needed.

The Bible was not composed using gifts of the Spirit, or at least not mainly. The writers had a , revelation of God, and an anointing. Timothy found his calling through gifts of prophecy and was empowered to minister. People today still need this. These words to Timothy did not create the Bible wording. They are lost from our reading.

Revelation last chapter tells us not to omit or add to the book of Revelation. The same principle can apply to 1 Corinthians and Acts... We should not omit spiritual gifts saying they ceased. We should not say their purpose was to write the NT and that they have no use now. Young men today need gifts, there is a bad suicide rate. People are lost. Many families with one or two Bibles on their book shelves are agnostic or atheist. Some antitheists. The old church with the word alone and maybe the altar calls or the confirmation crumble. Many leave, and they are not bad people. When they are found by God, it is the Spirit not the word that captures them. As in Acts.
Act 17:24 The God who made the world and everything in it, being Lord of heaven and earth, does not live in temples made by man,
Act 17:25 nor is he served by human hands, as though he needed anything, since he himself gives to all mankind life and breath and everything. ESV
Act 17:26 And he made from one man every nation of mankind to live on all the face of the earth, having determined allotted periods and the boundaries of their dwelling place,
Act 17:27 that they should seek God, and perhaps feel their way toward him and find him. Yet he is actually not far from each one of us,
Act 17:28 for “‘In him we live and move and have our being’; as even some of your own poets have said, “‘For we are indeed his offspring.’

So we need to Spirit first and the word, together, in order to grow as Christians.

How many ordinary people do we meet who pray to God regularly? And those who don't have lost their way, with a Bible at home they may have read, but now they live for their pleasures or for food... They are lovers and drinkers. They lost their eternal values.

Gifts of the Spirit can inspire people to repent, to appreciate their own lives... They can direct individual where they are at in that moment, and have many uses. For love, wisdom, courage, clarity, direction, hope, confirmation of what they think, or correction, sometimes to quote a verse of scripture.

The Bible has missing books, and limitations. People by testimony of their choice, do not find it enough.

We need the blood of Jesus. We need the living water, as from Revelation, the last chapter. We need the Spirit rain. We need the anointing. We need the fire, especially the missions and the ministers.

We need the teacher of all Truth to teach us the Bible. The Spirit and for some the anointing. Some call Him Him others it.

1Jn 2:20 But you have been anointed by the Holy One, and you all have knowledge.

1Jn 2:27 But the anointing that you received from him abides in you, and you have no need that anyone should teach you. But as his anointing teaches you about everything, and is true, and is no lie—just as it has taught you, abide in him. ESV

 

[GoldenKingGaze]

Corinthian tongues DOES require interpretation. Carry on reading.... "The one who prophesies is greater than the one who speaks in tongues, unless someone interprets, so that the church may be edified."



Tongues was the supernatural ability to speak a foreign language you have never learned. As Acts 2 makes clear. There is no other definition. The gift of Interpretation is the supernatural ability to translate a language you have never learned.

Swordsman, private tongues can mean, there is no one else around to hear you pray.

Acts 2 and Paul in Corinth are much of a different context.

 

[GoldenKingGaze]

Do you fellows who are cessationists think Peter and Paul dying under Nero's rule in 66 AD was God's predestined will?