• Starting today August 7th, 2024, in order to post in the Married Couples, Courting Couples, or Singles forums, you will not be allowed to post if you have your Marital status designated as private. Announcements will be made in the respective forums as well but please note that if yours is currently listed as Private, you will need to submit a ticket in the Support Area to have yours changed.

Number One Flaw in Cessationism

swordsman1

Well-Known Member
May 3, 2015
3,941
1,074
✟298,548.00
Faith
Christian
I don't know if it's happened in the past. But I believe that God is willing to do this it would benefit mankind.
Sure. I don't think that most people would do it, but it's not outside the realm of possibility.

Again, it need not be the norm. The question is whether Paul's hyperbole UTTERLY rules out all these things and, in so doing, rules out angelic tongues. That's just not the the case.

I never said the 5 parallel examples in 1 Cor 13:1-3 were impossibilities. I said they were hypothetical extremes, the highest conceivable degree of each of those gifts. All things are possible with God. He could cause someone to speak the language of dolphins if he wished. But there is no record of anyone doing so. Nor is there any record of Paul or anyone else speaking the tongues of angels or performing any other of those examples (apart from martyring yourself).

The point is Pentecostals and Charismatics use this verse to biblically justify their unintelligible utterances. They say Paul spoke in the language of angels and that is what they are doing. When the reality is that verse is just a wildly exaggerated hypothetical example.

There is no biblical justification for non-human tongues. What they practice is the phenomenon of the flesh known to linguists as free-vocalization or glossolalia.
 
Upvote 0

NBB

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Apr 19, 2013
3,996
1,874
46
Uruguay
✟645,686.00
Country
Uruguay
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
I never said the 5 parallel examples in 1 Cor 13:1-3 were impossibilities. I said they were hypothetical extremes, the highest conceivable degree of each of those gifts. All things are possible with God. He could cause someone to speak the language of dolphins if he wished. But there is no record of anyone doing so. Nor is there any record of Paul or anyone else speaking the tongues of angels or performing any other of those examples (apart from martyring yourself).

The point is Pentecostals and Charismatics use this verse to biblically justify their unintelligible utterances. They say Paul spoke in the language of angels and that is what they are doing. When the reality is that verse is just a wildly exaggerated hypothetical example.

There is no biblical justification for non-human tongues. What they practice is the phenomenon of the flesh known to linguists as free-vocalization or glossolalia.

So tongues are from the flesh, and prophecy is an extra sensory weird thing like physic or something?, and what else? People are being filled with the Holy spirit, like in the bible. Tell me you opinion on this? I never spoke in tongues, but i witnessed prophecy and being filled with the Holy spirit like something that not every christian has and its something that we need to seek.
 
Upvote 0

swordsman1

Well-Known Member
May 3, 2015
3,941
1,074
✟298,548.00
Faith
Christian
That's not what I said.

You said today's tongues was most likely a language unknown to men. Where is the evidence for that?

and 2ndly it is my opinion that many of today's examples are not genuine.

Well I would certainly agree with you there, except I would change "many" to "all".

Then how do you make sense of the rest of the verse?

I would say it means to stop speaking in tongues and pray silently.

Context. In that context Paul is probably referring to public manifestations, not private edification.

Yes the manifestations of the Spirit (gifts) are only for public use.

But ministring to God is a way of serving others. He inhabits the praises of His people. The more prayer/praise, the more blessing for all of us.

Yes, so long as others were being edified by the tongues speaking.

Nope. Act is prophecy, not the gift of tongues.

You don't think the disciples were speaking in foreign languages they had never learned? What were they doing then?
 
Upvote 0

swordsman1

Well-Known Member
May 3, 2015
3,941
1,074
✟298,548.00
Faith
Christian
No, it doesn't. Not exactly anyway. The only way for you to receive what you pray for is for you to know without doubt what God is saying. You CAN know what He is saying if you have one of the 'hearing' gifts of the Spirit, such as Word of Wisdom, Word of Knowledge, or Prophecy, which you don't believe are around today. So if you don't know what His will is in a situation, praying in tongues provides praying His perfect will.

God can answers prayers without audibly speaking to you. (and not by feelings or thoughts popping into your head either).

You purposefully stopped short. ROFL But I happen to have a good memory of the actual Scripture.

"for all God's people."

When you are in intercession for the people in your church or all your relatives, or whatever, you will not know what you need to specifically pray for; but, the Spirit does. And as I said before, sometimes, it's none of your business, but God wants you to pray His perfect will in that situation anyway, and has equipped you to do so - prayer language.

You seriously think that everytime we pray we have to pray for every single Christian in the world?

Anyway it is a moot point as "praying in the Spirit" does not occur in the 2nd sentence of that verse, it appears in the 1st, in context of making requests - which you cannot do if you don't know what you are saying. Hence "praying in the Spirit" cannot be exclusively tongues.
 
Upvote 0

NBB

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Apr 19, 2013
3,996
1,874
46
Uruguay
✟645,686.00
Country
Uruguay
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
God can answers prayers without audibly speaking to you. (and not by feelings or thoughts popping into your head either).



You seriously think that everytime we pray we have to pray for every single Christian in the world?

Anyway it is a moot point as "praying in the Spirit" does not occur in the 2nd sentence of that verse, it appears in the 1st, in context of making requests - which you cannot do if you don't know what you are saying. Hence "praying in the Spirit" cannot be exclusively tongues.

The problems is when God communicates something to us, he does in our inner being, you can say that is a 'feeling' because you are perciving something or feeling it, but those things are not your feelings, is like when someone touches you in the arm, you know someone touched you, you can 'feel' that.

Is precious moments like this that get me excited to live the christian life, when God does something to me, or communicates something, or gives me an ability or bless me spiritually,

Do you know the water of life that Jesus talks about, is an spiritual thing, you can receive in your soul and feel it too, so why this attitude against feeling something from God, feeling something from God is not your 'feelings' don't you know you can feel his presence? this is very precious and one the best things that can happen, when God interacts with us.
 
Upvote 0

swordsman1

Well-Known Member
May 3, 2015
3,941
1,074
✟298,548.00
Faith
Christian
No, I just thought you were kidding, so I made a joke. Evidently you are not aware of Hebrew idioms even though knowing what the authors are saying makes the Scriptures come alive. But Luke was part Greek so this may be clearer for you.

Luke 10:19
Behold, I give you the authority to trample on serpents and scorpions, and over all the power of the enemy, and nothing shall by any means hurt you.

I have had divine protection on many occasions since becoming born again of the Spirit.

Well then it is not an idiom. An idiom is a phrase like "letting the cat out of the bag". What you are now saying is the word "snakes" in Mark 16 are not real snakes, but a metaphor for something else - your enemies, right?

So the abilities listed in Mark 16:17-18 that don't fit into your theory, "picking up deadly snakes" and "drinking poison", you wriggle out of by declaring them to be metaphors. So what exactly does it mean to "pick up your enemies"? And how do you explain "drinking poison" - what is that a metaphor for?

It is obvious you are grasping at straws to try and twist this passage to fit your idea- that we can all speak in tongues, and heal people. But it is clear the other abilities listed, such as being bitten by deadly snakes and coming to no harm as Paul did in Malta, only occurred during the apostolic age. Mark 16:17-18 is clearly a prophecy by Jesus that was fulfilled in the 1st century AD.
 
Upvote 0

NBB

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Apr 19, 2013
3,996
1,874
46
Uruguay
✟645,686.00
Country
Uruguay
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Well then it is not an idiom. An idiom is a phrase like "letting the cat out of the bag". What you are now saying is the word "snakes" in Mark 16 are not real snakes, but a metaphor for something else - your enemies, right?

So the abilities listed in Mark 16:17-18 that don't fit into your theory, "picking up deadly snakes" and "drinking poison", you wriggle out of by declaring them to be metaphors. So what exactly does it mean to "pick up your enemies"? And how do you explain "drinking poison" - what is that a metaphor for?

It is obvious you are grasping at straws to try and twist this passage to fit your idea- that we can all speak in tongues, and heal people. But it is clear the other abilities listed, such as being bitten by deadly snakes and coming to no harm as Paul did in Malta, only occurred during the apostolic age. Mark 16:17-18 is clearly a prophecy by Jesus that was fulfilled in the 1st century AD.

Serpents and scorpions is about the devil obviously there.
 
Upvote 0

swordsman1

Well-Known Member
May 3, 2015
3,941
1,074
✟298,548.00
Faith
Christian
Paul is talking about both types of tongues in 1 Corinthians 14, not just the gift in 1 Corinthians 12, but the prayer language without interpretation of Mark 16.

Paul is saying, our prayer language that no one can understand, that is just TO God, is not for inside the congregation; that is for the gift of diverse kinds of tongues that requires interpretation. And the gift should only be limited to 2-3 and 1 interprets them.

No, there are not 2 types of tongues in 1 Cor 14. Paul makes no such distinctions. The distinctions are only in your mind. "The one who speaks in tongues" in v5 is the same "one who speaks in tongues" in v2.

Inventing multiple types of tongues is just a ruse to wriggle out of verses that do not fit Charismatic theory. "Hmm. The tongues in this verse doesn't fit in with our theory - I know, we'll change it to another type of tongues and the problem is solved!"


You are not comprehending how the emphasis was on the hearing in Acts 2. All your brain is focused on is the speaking, and you are blinded to the real truth. Each person of different countries heard them (like a choir) speaking is own language. Like, I was hearing a different language than the language you were hearing. To one the 'choir' was speaking Japanese. Another heard the 'choir' speaking Russian, as examples.

So what exactly did the foreigners hear? A voice in their ears automatically translating the disciples words? That's not what v6 says. It wasn't a voice they heard...

"each one of them was hearing them speak in his own language"

There is no doubt the disciples were miraculously speaking in foreign languages.

You didn't answer my previous response so I will ask it again.

Consider the following statement:

"A group of European tourists visited an American city where the policemen spoke in other languages. Each tourist heard the policemen speak in their own language."

What would you naturally understand that to mean?

Would you understand it mean that the policemen were speaking gobbledegook but the tourists experienced a miracle of hearing and the words were automatically translated in their ears as their own native language?

Or would you understand it to mean the policemen separately spoke in the native languages of the tourists?

Now go and read Acts 2:4-6.


It is called the gift of interpretation of tongues, not the gift of translation of tongues. When spoken it could be a commentary of the message. It is equal with prophecy. It is like when God speaks to me. I will hear a few words, but the wisdom and knowledge that accompanies those words are what those few words mean in my case, and how they apply to me. That is "interpretation." (Like Luke's interpretation of the Hebrew idiom that Mark wrote.)

The word herméneia, in the context of languages, means to translate.

ἑρμηνεία,
capacity of doing translation, translation (BGU 326 I, 1; II, 15; POxy 1466, 3; Sir prol. 20; EpArist 3; 11 al.; Just.) γλωσσῶν 1 Cor 12:10; cp. 14:26.

product of interpretive procedure, interpretation, exposition of words of Jesus Papias (2:3), on this cp. Mel., P. 41, 282; 42, 296.—DELG s.v. ἑρμηνεύς. M-M. TW. Spicq. Sv.
 
Upvote 0

swordsman1

Well-Known Member
May 3, 2015
3,941
1,074
✟298,548.00
Faith
Christian
I realize this post was largely facetious and frankly I don't even know what your beliefs are but I decided to use it as an occasion to vent. Here's my beef with cessationism. Paul defined a church like this:

"And God has placed in the church first of all apostles, second prophets, third teachers, then miracles, then gifts of healing, of helping, of guidance, and of different kinds of tongues" (1Cor 12).

Rejecting the biblical definition of the church, inevitably culminates in replacing it with some OTHER definition - a man-made definition. And once we decided to shove our man-made definitions of the church down God's throat, we pretty much closed the door on revival. Here's how God feels about man-made ordinances:

"Aaron’s sons Nadab and Abihu took their censers, put fire in them and added incense; and they offered unauthorized fire before the Lord, contrary to his command. So fire came out from the presence of the Lord and consumed them, and they died before the Lord" (Lev 10).

In point of fact I'm not opposed to man-made institutions since, after all, we cannot force God to raise up fresh apostles. All we can do is pray and wait on Him and thus, in the meantime, we must settle for man-made institutions. But when these leaders and institutions pretend (insist) that they are the real thing, they cause the sheep to support, celebrate, and perpetuate unauthorized fire.

Cessationism seems to defy credulity. Why so? Most Christians would probably regard the OT as an instruction manual reasonably valid for about 1,000 years. Does the cessationist have equal confidence in the NT? Not at all. In his eyes, its ecclesiological system became obsolete less than 50 years from the day it was penned! Is God such a poor instructor that He couldn't find a way to define a governmental system for us? All we got from Him is an obsolete definition? Really?

The rest of the believers can preach whatever definition they want. As for me, I stand by Paul's definition:

"And God has placed in the church first of all apostles, second prophets, third teachers, then miracles, then gifts of healing, of helping, of guidance, and of different kinds of tongues" (1Cor 12).

If you have accepted that scripture-writing, miracle-working, eye-witness Apostles of Christ are no longer with us then you too are a cessationist - at least to a degree.
 
Upvote 0

NBB

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Apr 19, 2013
3,996
1,874
46
Uruguay
✟645,686.00
Country
Uruguay
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Obviously. We all pick up the devil with our bare hands, right.

When it says: they are going to step on serpents and scorpions and every force of the enemy and nothing will harm them, yes its talking about the devil. "every force of the enemy".
 
Upvote 0

JAL

Veteran
Site Supporter
Oct 16, 2004
10,778
928
Visit site
✟343,550.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
I never said the 5 parallel examples in 1 Cor 13:1-3 were impossibilities. I said they were hypothetical extremes, the highest conceivable degree of each of those gifts. All things are possible with God. He could cause someone to speak the language of dolphins if he wished. But there is no record of anyone doing so. Nor is there any record of Paul or anyone else speaking the tongues of angels or performing any other of those examples (apart from martyring yourself).

The point is Pentecostals and Charismatics use this verse to biblically justify their unintelligible utterances. They say Paul spoke in the language of angels and that is what they are doing. When the reality is that verse is just a wildly exaggerated hypothetical example.
Dolphins are not fully sentient creatures. No dolphin has ever spoken a human or human-like language. Angels on the other hand appeared to men, spoke human languages, and presumably have their own languages similar to ours. In fact men have entertained angels without knowing it (Heb 13). Even if 1Cor 13:1 didn't exist, the theory of speaking an angelic tongue is an entirely plausible notion.

There is no biblical justification for non-human tongues.
Yes there is biblical justification for non-human languages. The justification is this:

"Indeed, no one understands them; they utter mysteries by the Spirit" (14:2).

This isn't apodictic proof but it's at least a reasonable basis for suspecting it's a language unknown to men. An angelic language would qualify. I just don't get it. I don't see how someone can claim to categorically rule out the possibility of angelic tongues.

What they practice is the phenomenon of the flesh known to linguists as free-vocalization or glossolalia.
I wasn't focusing primarily on what the churches practice, but rather on the possibilities indicated by exegesis.

But I will make one comment on current practice because you might be overlooking something. Prayer can be a laborious process if we're trying to find words to say. This is similar to a writer who has writer's cramp. As a result, sometimes we don't pray due to the sheer effort involved. And yet, ultimately all of us, as Christians, want to pray the same basic things, namely, "God be glorified. Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done." As I understand it, then, God empowers prayer-in-tongues as a way of relieving us from the struggle of finding words to say. He gives us confidence that uttering the tongue is satisfactory because, deep down, He KNOWS what types of things we want to say.

Now for the point that critics tend to overlook. Technically, He need only do this one time. All we need is a set of syllables to forever pull us out of writer's cramp. It does't matter if, from then on, we remix them in meaningless ways ('free-vocalization'). God is more interested in the things that we are trying to say with our hearts. Regardless of whether you dislike present-day utterances, it makes for a lot of prayer and praise otherwise repressed.

To summarize my views: ideally the initial experience of tongues should be truly inspired. What happens subsequently is less important. And I'll be the first to suspect that many of today's Pentecostals never even had an authentic initial experience. Even so, let's not be so Pharisaical that we prematurely discount their utterances as useless. In this dark world, any heartfelt attempt to supplicate God is potentially invaluable.

What I DO find annoying,on the other hand, is that some Pentecostals seem to presume their "babbling" to be a higher form of prayer than intelligible words. I don't think that's a reliable assumption.
 
Upvote 0

Albion

Facilitator
Dec 8, 2004
111,127
33,262
✟583,992.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Anglican
Marital Status
Married
Dolphins are not fully sentient creatures. No dolphin has ever spoken a human or human-like language. Angels on the other hand appeared to men, spoke human languages, and presumably have their own languages similar to ours. In fact men have entertained angels without knowing it (Heb 13). Even if 1Cor 13:1 didn't exist, the theory of speaking an angelic tongue is an entirely plausible notion.

No, it isn't. Angels are spirits, without tongues or vocal boxes. The fact that some angels have appeared among men means only that they have taken on human form for that purpose.

That being the case, there is no reason to assume that they would speak to humans in some language that no humans would understand--even if there WERE such a thing as an "angelic language."

This isn't apodictic proof but it's at least a reasonable basis for suspecting it's a language unknown to men. An angelic language would qualify. I just don't get it. I don't see how someone can claim to categorically rule out the possibility of angelic tongues.
See the above.
 
Upvote 0

swordsman1

Well-Known Member
May 3, 2015
3,941
1,074
✟298,548.00
Faith
Christian
Angels on the other hand appeared to men, spoke human languages, and presumably have their own languages similar to ours. In fact men have entertained angels without knowing it (Heb 13). Even if 1Cor 13:1 didn't exist, the theory of speaking an angelic tongue is an entirely plausible notion.

But that is not evidence that humans can or ever have spoken in the language of angels.

Yes there is biblical justification for non-human languages. The justification is this:

"Indeed, no one understands them; they utter mysteries by the Spirit" (14:2).

This isn't apodictic proof but it's at least a reasonable basis for suspecting it's a language unknown to men. An angelic language would qualify. I just don't get it. I don't see how someone can claim to categorically rule out the possibility of angelic tongues.

And equally, an unrecognized human language would also apply to 1 Cor 14:2. So that verse is not proof that tongues is a non-human language.


But I will make one comment on current practice because you might be overlooking something. Prayer can be a laborious process if we're trying to find words to say. This is similar to a writer who has writer's cramp. As a result, sometimes we don't pray due to the sheer effort involved. And yet, ultimately all of us, as Christians, want to pray the same basic things, namely, "God be glorified. Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done." As I understand it, then, God empowers prayer-in-tongues as a way of relieving us from the struggle of finding words to say. He gives us confidence that uttering the tongue is satisfactory because, deep down, He KNOWS what types of things we want to say.

Now for the point that critics tend to overlook. Technically, He need only do this one time. All we need is a set of syllables to forever pull us out of writer's cramp. It does't matter if, from then on, we remix them in meaningless ways ('free-vocalization'). God is more interested in the things that we are trying to say with our hearts. Regardless of whether you dislike present-day utterances, it makes for a lot of prayer and praise otherwise repressed.

To summarize my views: ideally the initial experience of tongues should be truly inspired. What happens subsequently is less important. And I'll be the first to suspect that many of today's Pentecostals never even had an authentic initial experience. Even so, let's not be so Pharisaical that we prematurely discount their utterances as useless. In this dark world, any heartfelt attempt to supplicate God is potentially invaluable.

That's fine. But that is not tongues. Tongues in the New Testament is a language that has a meaning, one that can be translated into another native language. And the only description of the phenomenon we have in scripture is in Acts 2 where it is foreign human languages.
 
Upvote 0

JAL

Veteran
Site Supporter
Oct 16, 2004
10,778
928
Visit site
✟343,550.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
No, it isn't. Angels are spirits, without tongues or vocal boxes. The fact that some have appeared among men means only that they have taken on human form. That being the case, there is no reason to assume that they would speak to humans in some language that would be understood by no one they might contact--even if there WERE such a thing as an "angelic language."
See the above.
Like the church father Tertullian, I'm a staunch materialist. You're dead wrong that angels are spirits. And in fact a number of church fathers regarded angels as physical. Furthermore to claim that an immaterial substance becomes material and then immaterial again is logically incoherent and therefore does not, in my book, count as a legitimate theory. It's like saying, "Yesterday I sat on my chair. But today I couldn't sit on it because it had become immaterial substance. Maybe tomorrow it will become material substance again." This is gibberish.

There is plenty of biblical evidence for the physicality of angels. There is no substantive evidence for the contrary - and the burden of proof falls on those who would postulate a fantastical theory of this magical concept called "immaterial substance". Extraordinary claims require extraordinary degrees of evidence.

Materialism isn't an extraordinary claim. Matter is something we see everyday.
 
Upvote 0

JAL

Veteran
Site Supporter
Oct 16, 2004
10,778
928
Visit site
✟343,550.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
But that is not evidence that humans can or ever have spoken in the language of angels.
Shifting the burden of proof. God can pick any random language that He wants, for the unknown tongue. Who are you to dictate to Him what languages He can and cannot use? Show me in Scripture where it says He is NOT allowed to utilize angelic tongues? This is ridiculous.


And equally, an unrecognized human language would also apply to 1 Cor 14:2. So that verse is not proof that tongues is a non-human language.
(Sigh) Again, the Pentecostal doesn't NEED to prove that it is a non-human-language. The gift of tongues doesn't stand or fall on that. You're the one with the axe to grind here. You're the one insisting that it CANNOT be non-human and you've proven nothing of the kind. All you've proven is that you see yourself as having some kind of papal authority to dictate what God can and cannot do.

That's fine. But that is not tongues. Tongues in the New Testament is a language that has a meaning, one that can be translated into another native language.
I didn't deny that fact. And?

And the only description of the phenomenon we have in scripture is in Acts 2 where it is foreign human languages.
Acts isn't the gift of tongues. It is the gift of prophecy.
 
Upvote 0

Albion

Facilitator
Dec 8, 2004
111,127
33,262
✟583,992.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Anglican
Marital Status
Married
Like the church father Tertullian, I'm a staunch materialist. You're dead wrong that angels are spirits. And in fact a number of church fathers regarded angels as physical. Furthermore to claim that an immaterial substance becomes material and then immaterial again is logically incoherent and therefore does not, in my book, count as a legitimate theory. It's like saying, "Yesterday I sat on my chair. But today I couldn't sit on it because it had become immaterial substance. Maybe tomorrow it will become material substance again." This is gibberish.
So, is the Incarnation gibberish as well?

The idea that God can cause spirits to appear to humans and speak to them is standard Christian belief grounded in Scripture. Why wouldn't God be able to do this?

In fact, it is almost taken for granted that all the archangels who are mentioned by name in Scripture are ones especially designated as messengers (that's the meaning of the word angel in both Hebrew and Greek--messenger) from God to men.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0