Number One Flaw in Cessationism

[GoldenKingGaze]

Read some other translations. Not the horrendously obscure YLT.

I like the ESV and KJV.
1Co 12:7 To each is given the manifestation of the Spirit for the common good.

1Pe 4:10 As each has received a gift, use it to serve one another, as good stewards of God's varied grace:

 

[swordsman1]

Paul if rebuking at all, was showing them his wisdom of maturity, and offering service, which Paul did so greatly. He expresses that he wished we all speak in tongues literally. And the setting and the context of the passage is the Pauline church service in a congregation of many others, not alone.

Paul is clearly rebuking the Corinthians for speaking uninterpreted tongues. The tongues that Paul desired for the Corinthian church was interpreted tongues.

 

[swordsman1]

I don't agree with the exaggeration or hyperbole interpretation of 1 Cor 13. Those things were great things but not lies.

Who said they were lies? In 1 Cor 13:1-3 Paul is portraying an exaggerated scenario to make a point. He is saying even if someone could speak in tongues to the ultimate degree conceivable (speaking the language of angels), but not have love, it would be worthless. We can tell this because he does the same with 3 other gifts in the following verses - having the gift of prophesy to the ultimate degree of knowing ALL mysteries and ALL knowledge (ie. omniscience); having the gift of faith to the ultimate degree of moving mountains; and having the gift of giving to the ultimate degree of giving up ALL you possess to the poor and even giving up your own life. Paul is saying that even if someone had those gifts to such a superlative degree, without love, it would be to no avail.

 

[swordsman1]

I like the ESV and KJV.
1Co 12:7 To each is given the manifestation of the Spirit for the common good.

1Pe 4:10 As each has received a gift, use it to serve one another, as good stewards of God's varied grace:

....which makes it clear that spiritual gifts are to be used to serve others. (my bold)

 

[Saint Steven]

I like the ESV and KJV.
1Co 12:7 To each is given the manifestation of the Spirit for the common good.

1Pe 4:10 As each has received a gift, use it to serve one another, as good stewards of God's varied grace:

Cessationism cost the church an arm and a leg. - lol

1 Corinthians 12:12-14
Just as a body, though one, has many parts, but all its many parts form one body, so it is with Christ. 13 For we were all baptized by one Spirit so as to form one body—whether Jews or Gentiles, slave or free—and we were all given the one Spirit to drink. 14 Even so the body is not made up of one part but of many.

 

[GoldenKingGaze]

Paul is clearly rebuking the Corinthians for speaking uninterpreted tongues. The tongues that Paul desired for the Corinthian church was interpreted tongues.

1Co 14:4 He that speaketh in an unknown tongue edifieth himself; but he that prophesieth edifieth the church.

1Co 14:18 I thank my God, I speak with tongues more than ye all:
1Co 14:19 Yet in the church I had rather speak five words with my understanding, that by my voice I might teach others also, than ten thousand words in an unknown tongue.

1Co 14:28 But if there be no interpreter, let him keep silence in the church; and let him speak to himself, and to God.

1Co 14:39 Wherefore, brethren, covet to prophesy, and forbid not to speak with tongues. KJV

Verse 19, has Paul saying either an unknown tongue or one of the three languages he knew.

 

[GoldenKingGaze]

....which makes it clear that spiritual gifts are to be used to serve others. (my bold)

Yes but even the one who receives a word of wisdom can profit himself with all.

 

[GoldenKingGaze]

Who said they were lies? In 1 Cor 13:1-3 Paul is portraying an exaggerated scenario to make a point. He is saying even if someone could speak in tongues to the ultimate degree conceivable (speaking the language of angels), but not have love, it would be worthless. We can tell this because he does the same with 3 other gifts in the following verses - having the gift of prophesy to the ultimate degree of knowing ALL mysteries and ALL knowledge (ie. omniscience); having the gift of faith to the ultimate degree of moving mountains; and having the gift of giving to the ultimate degree of giving up ALL you possess to the poor and even giving up your own life. Paul is saying that even if someone had those gifts to such a superlative degree, without love, it would be to no avail.

I would say Paul could pray in the tongues of angels at home. And speak angelic tongues for interpretation. That he knew people who for their faith and obedience as under Roman penalties, who were burned at the stake. Paul quotes Jesus in regards to moving mountains, and figuratively that is what he was trying to do, to move the Roman government. Omniscience is a man made idea. But Paul given time could fathom mysteries with prophecy, and wrote about times to come, future people...

 

[swordsman1]

Verse 19, has Paul saying either an unknown tongue or one of the three languages he knew.

The word "unknown" doesn't mean non-human. That word doesn't appear in the original Greek, it was added by the KJV translators to emphasize that the tongues Paul was was referring to was unrecognized, ie unknown to the congregation.

 

[GoldenKingGaze]

The word "unknown" doesn't mean non-human. That word doesn't appear in the original Greek, it was added by the KJV translators to emphasize that the tongues Paul was was referring to was unrecognized, ie unknown to the congregation.

Around this thought there is no sense of Paul speaking a tongue unknown to himself to someone who could understand.

 

[swordsman1]

I would say Paul could pray in the tongues of angels at home. And speak angelic tongues for interpretation. That he knew people who for their faith and obedience as under Roman penalties, who were burned at the stake. Paul quotes Jesus in regards to moving mountains, and figuratively that is what he was trying to do, to move the Roman government. Omniscience is a man made idea. But Paul given time could fathom mysteries with prophecy, and wrote about times to come, future people...

Being burned at the stake is the ultimate degree of the gift of giving. Not the normal everyday operation of the gift.

Nobody ever moved mountains. Jesus and Paul were both exaggerating when they used that term.

Paul is making the point that even having spiritual gifts to the highest conceivable degree would be worthless without love.

 

[swordsman1]

Around this thought there is no sense of Paul speaking a tongue unknown to himself to someone who could understand.

Why not? That's what the disciples did at Pentecost.

 

[GoldenKingGaze]

Being burned at the stake is the ultimate degree of the gift of giving. Not the normal everyday operation of the gift.

Nobody ever moved mountains. Jesus and Paul were both exaggerating when they used that term.

Paul is making the point that even having spiritual gifts to the highest conceivable degree would be worthless without love.

Paul speaks of the extremes, not fiction, exaggerations. Jesus spoke in parables but he could literally move mountains. He made them. They are figurative of government.

 

[GoldenKingGaze]

Why not? That's what the disciples did at Pentecost.

Pentecost was a momentous event. Paul spoke of giving and building up and of a sense of maturity and his order.

 

[JAL]

Although God can and sometimes does heal today in response to prayer, that is not the gift of healing as seen in the NT. The gift of healing is the supernatural ability to miraculously heal someone of a permanent/acute disability instantly and completely by simply a command or a touch, just as disciples did. If you have to pray for healing it proves you do not have the gift of healing.

That's an unwarranted conclusion. It doesn't follow and arguably runs contrary to verses that prioritize prayer such as, "This kind cometh not out but by prayer and by fasting". Also it arguably ignores this verse, "Fan into flame the gift of God that is in you through the laying on of my hands."

Further you are assuming that the healer 'has' the gift of healing. That's only one possible interpretation. Another interpretation, proposed by Howard Ervin, is that the sick person receives the gift of healing.

Your conclusion is dubious, at best, in light of this passage:

"Peter sent them all out of the room; then he got down on his knees and prayed. Turning toward the dead woman, he said, “Tabitha, get up.” She opened her eyes, and seeing Peter she sat up."

One more passage. James 5:

Is anyone among you in trouble? Let them pray. Is anyone happy? Let them sing songs of praise. 14Is anyone among you sick? Let them call the elders of the church to pray over them and anoint them with oil in the name of the Lord. 15And the prayer offered in faith will make the sick person well; the Lord will raise them up. If they have sinned, they will be forgiven. 16Therefore confess your sins to each other and pray for each other so that you may be healed. The prayer of a righteous person is powerful and effective. 17Elijah was a human being, even as we are. He prayed earnestly that it would not rain, and it did not rain on the land for three and a half years. 18Again he prayed, and the heavens gave rain, and the earth produced its crops.


Scripture made an effort to persuade us that Jesus and His apostles were men of prayer. For you to assume that there was no connection between their prayer life and their healing power is a wholly gratuitous claim that flies in the face of the biblical data.

 

[swordsman1]

Paul speaks of the extremes, not fiction, exaggerations. Jesus spoke in parables but he could literally move mountains. He made them. They are figurative of government.

Right. They were hypothetical extremes. The highest conceivable degree of each gift. Not the normal operations of those gifts - to make the point that even if someone had a gift to such a superlative degree, it would be worthless without love.

 

[swordsman1]

That's an unwarranted conclusion. It doesn't follow and arguably runs contrary to verses that prioritize prayer such as, "This kind cometh not out but by prayer and by fasting". Also it arguably ignores this verse, "Fan into flame the gift of God that is in you through the laying on of my hands."

Apples and oranges. Jesus did not say that in respect of a healing, but of casting out demons.

What is your point regarding Paul's exhortation to Timothy?

Further you are assuming that the healer 'has' the gift of healing. That's only one possible interpretation. Another interpretation, proposed by Howard Ervin, is that the sick person receives the gift of healing.

Healing was one of the gifts given to believers.

1 Cor 12:8 "For to one is given through the Spirit the utterance of wisdom, and to another the utterance of knowledge according to the same Spirit, 9 to another faith by the same Spirit, to another gifts of healing by the one Spirit"​

Your conclusion is dubious, at best, in light of this passage:

"Peter sent them all out of the room; then he got down on his knees and prayed. Turning toward the dead woman, he said, “Tabitha, get up.” She opened her eyes, and seeing Peter she sat up."

Again apples and oranges. Peter was raising someone from the dead, not healing them of an illness.

One more passage. James 5:

Is anyone among you in trouble? Let them pray. Is anyone happy? Let them sing songs of praise. 14Is anyone among you sick? Let them call the elders of the church to pray over them and anoint them with oil in the name of the Lord. 15And the prayer offered in faith will make the sick person well; the Lord will raise them up. If they have sinned, they will be forgiven. 16Therefore confess your sins to each other and pray for each other so that you may be healed. The prayer of a righteous person is powerful and effective. 17Elijah was a human being, even as we are. He prayed earnestly that it would not rain, and it did not rain on the land for three and a half years. 18Again he prayed, and the heavens gave rain, and the earth produced its crops.

Scripture made an effort to persuade us that Jesus and His apostles were men of prayer. For you to assume that there was no connection between their prayer life and their healing power is a wholly gratuitous claim that flies in the face of the biblical data.

Yes. We are to pray for healing. God can and does heal in response to prayer. But if you have to pray for healing it proves you do not have the gift of healing.

 

[GoldenKingGaze]

There is healing from Jesus, of immense faith and anointing, and there was the disciples powers with the seventy Jesus sent out. The 12 at Pentecost, and event under God's control, made the disciples apostles. They then did what Jesus did. Gifts of healing are dependent on obedience. A person may have the faith to see healings and it varies from one to another what talents they have, inner healing, body or creative miracles...

 

[GoldenKingGaze]

In Acts 2, The Holy Spirit came down from Heaven to Earth and was moving mightily, He was in control. The apostles all were speaking at once. They were understood by seven different language groups all at once.

In 1 Corinthians Paul's learning and maturity came forward, with his brand of order. This was not like Pentecost. It was more tame.

 

[JAL]

What is your point regarding Paul's exhortation to Timothy?

That the gifts do not necessarily operate automatically, contrary to your assumptions. A gift may need to be fanned into flame,and prayer is conceivably the best way to do that.

Healing was one of the gifts given to believers.

1 Cor 12:8 "For to one is given through the Spirit the utterance of wisdom, and to another the utterance of knowledge according to the same Spirit, 9 to another faith by the same Spirit, to another gifts of healing by the one Spirit"​

Already refuted. Again, you're making an unwarranted assumption. The sick person arguably receives a gift of healing. Isn't it odd that the plural is used here? Why would one person need multiple gifts of healing? More likely, it is because he's healing multiple sick people and thus dispenses multiple gifts of healing. It's a gift, and gifts come by prayer, for "How much more will your father in heaven give good gifts (plural) to those who ask him?" (Mat 7:11).

Healing refers to the restoration of a body part to its proper functionality. You gratuitously assume that raising someone up from the dead doesn't count as healing. That doesn't make sense. Again, unwarranted assumptions.

Again apples and oranges. Peter was raising someone from the dead, not healing them of an illness.

Do not divide asunder what God has united. Paul collectively calls them manifestations of the Holy Spirit. They are all in the same category - apples.

"Now to each one the manifestation of the Spirit is given for the common good. 8To one there is given through the Spirit a message of wisdom, to another a message of knowledge by means of the same Spirit, 9to another faith by the same Spirit, to another gifts of healing by that one Spirit, 10to another miraculous powers, to another prophecy, to another distinguishing between spirits, to another speaking in different kinds of tongues, a and to still another the interpretation of tongues. b 11All these are the work of one and the same Spirit, and he distributes them to each one, just as he determines."

Yes. We are to pray for healing. God can and does heal in response to prayer. But if you have to pray for healing it proves you do not have the gift of healing.

See above. You have established nothing of the kind. You haven't even established whether it is the healer who 'has' the gift of healing, on the one hand, or the sick person who receives the gift of healing, on the other. You've simply jumped to an unwarranted conclusion that flies in the face of multiple verses suggesting otherwise.