Number One Flaw in Cessationism

[ICONO'CLAST]

I didn't say they did on this particular post. But there have been others for years where the mocking has been intense. You are not a new member, so you know.

The reason for this post is Covenant Theology. NOTHING inside a covenant ceases, just as not a jot or a tittle ended until all was fulfilled in the Old Covenant. We are in a New Covenant, and the same rules apply to everything inside our covenant.

I do not think you understand what the term Covenant theology means.

 

[CharismaticLady]

It is no theory, the plain reading of Acts 2 is indisputably foreign human languages. How does 1 Cor 14:2, taken in context, prove that tongues is a non-human language?

I agree it is in plain speech, but you are focusing on the speaking rather than on the hearing. That is your first mistake. Thinking that God is contradicting 1 Corinthians 14:2 is your biggest mistake, as you don't respect God. The languages of tongues is of men and of angels, they could even be new languages, as seen at the tower of Babel, God is the one who creates languages.

What are you referring to? An unsubstantiated claim of you commanding the instant healing someone of a broken back? Go on then tell us the story.

I have already, but I'll see if I can find it. I do agree with you that it is a command, not just praying or hoping for God's will to be done. He has already given us that power individually. Mark 16:16-18 is for EVERY believer, not just the apostles; otherwise, only they would have needed to be baptized. But that is off topic. Now, do you believe we can command healing, or not?

And what do you mean by hearing God's voice? A strong feeling or a thought popping into your head? Where in scripture is prophecy ever described as such? In scripture both public and personal prophecy is given as "Thus says the Lord..." (see Acts 21:11).

You make it sound like a formula. LOL If God tells me something that is going to happen to me, I don't have to say to myself, Thus says the Lord for it to happen.

 

[Acts2:38]

The Bible and the Spirit are joined as one thing to be authority, to teach, not just the Bible alone. The Bible says so.

Curious, do you believe the Holy Spirit is a thing or object?
Or do you believe the Holy Spirit is a he with personality etc?

 

[CharismaticLady]

Read the verses again. They did understand them.

Acts 2

7 And they were all amazed and marvelled, saying one to another, Behold, are not all these which speak Galilaeans?
8 And how hear we every man in our own tongue, wherein we were born?

11 Cretes and Arabians, we do hear them speak in our tongues the wonderful works of God.

Given the definition of the Greek word, the context, etc, one is forced to say that this is merely the Holy Spirit allowing the disciples to speak languages they have had no study in nor knew. They were Galilaeans.



γλῶσσα glōssa, gloce-sah'; of uncertain affinity; the tongue; by implication, a language (specially, one naturally unacquired):—tongue.

1. the tongue, a member of the body, an organ of speech
   
   
2. a tongue
   1. the language or dialect used by a particular people distinct from that of other nations

Because they were mocking them.
13 Others mocking said, These men are full of new wine.

People mock Christians all the time even today. When I was a worldly person, I've hung around the alcoholic scene plenty to know that they do not speak the gibberish people want to say "tongues" is today. They slur sure. Broken sentence structure, sure. But they were still able to speak their native language. Not the gibberish that goes on with people who want to believe miracles still happen now.

Since they were mocking them, it would be no surprise that they would state Peter and the others to be drunk off sweet wine grape juice.



120? Where did that number come in?

What is even more interesting, is that you believe in miracles, yet you somehow dont believe that these people could hear their own language. Also, it wasnt just Jews, verses 9-11 state many other different nations of people too.

Though, I personally do not find it that hard to differentiate my own language in crowded, diverse environments. Born in a heavy tourist happy location, we would get into events that were crowded full of people of different languages, all talking, and I can find out who is speaking English. Of course if they are close enough for my hearing in a crowed place. However, that is not a miraculous event either.

Because that was a miraculous event, it shouldn't be too hard to believe.



If you knew, why would we be discussing contrary to each other? Using scripture and the Greek wording, I have proven so. I am not using my opinions.

And so, I kindly refer you back to my very first posting. That is the evidence in scripture proving miracles are no longer.

Are you saying the devout Jews that heard them speaking in their languages were the mockers??? That's funny.

The 120 was in Acts 1:15

 

[Acts2:38]

I will have to look for an apologist web page to find the apparent contradiction first hand. There is a decimal error.

I start looking here: Internal consistency of the Bible - Wikipedia

Statements like this show that you dont hold the bible as authoritative really at all. That it needs help.

Yet scripture blatantly states 2 Timothy 3:16-17. If there are inconsistencies, it is because they dismiss what the bible says and do not understand what is being said, thinking they couldnt be wrong, that God is more likely to be wrong than they. After all, it is God who wrote the bible by the Holy Spirit through men.

If one does not hold the bible as the only authority in these matters, discussing to them using scripture would be difficult. Just my assumption for now, but you may seem to think the Holy Spirit is just an object or thing.

 

[CharismaticLady]

I do not think you understand what the term Covenant theology means.

I know enough to know anyone who says anything that is part of a covenant ceases, doesn't know covenant theology at all.

 

[CharismaticLady]

If one does not hold the bible as the only authority

1 Corinthians 14:2 "For he who speaks in a tongue does not speak to men but to God, for no one understands him; however, in the spirit he speaks mysteries."

Now using this rule, you can know that believing that in Acts 2 the disciples were speaking the language of the devout Jews, has to be in error.

 

[Acts2:38]

Are you saying the devout Jews that heard them speaking in their languages were the mockers??? That's funny.

The 120 was in Acts 1:15

I am not saying it.
12 And they were all amazed, and were in doubt, saying one to another, What meaneth this?

13 Others mocking said, These men are full of new wine.

I told you, I am not speaking my opinions. That is what these verses are saying.

 

[Acts2:38]

1 Corinthians 14:2 "For he who speaks in a tongue does not speak to men but to God, for no one understands him; however, in the spirit he speaks mysteries."

Now using this rule, you can know that believing that in Acts 2 the disciples were speaking the language of the devout Jews, has to be in error.

Your not reading scripture. I keep putting it down for you.

6 Now when this was noised abroad, the multitude came together, and were confounded, because that every man heard them speak in his own language.

7 And they were all amazed and marvelled, saying one to another, Behold, are not all these which speak Galilaeans?

8 And how hear we every man in our own tongue, wherein we were born?

 

[swordsman1]

I agree it is in plain speech, but you are focusing on the speaking rather than on the hearing. That is your first mistake. Thinking that God is contradicting 1 Corinthians 14:2 is your biggest mistake, as you don't respect God. The languages of tongues is of men and of angels, they could even be new languages, as seen at the tower of Babel, God is the one who creates languages.

It says the foreigners heard the disciples speaking in foreign languages. It couldn't be clearer:

Acts 2:6 "each one of them was hearing them speak in his own language"​

1 Cor 14:2 is also referring to someone speaking a foreign human language in Corinth. If someone was speaking say Persian in a small Greek house church, it is no surprise that no one understood.

The reference of tongues of angels in 1 Cor 13:1 is hyperbole, not something Paul actually did. It is one of several other hyperbole listed in v1-3.

I have already, but I'll see if I can find it. I do agree with you that it is a command, not just praying or hoping for God's will to be done. He has already given us that power individually. Mark 16:16-18 is for EVERY believer, not just the apostles; otherwise, only they would have needed to be baptized. But that is off topic. Now, do you believe we can command healing, or not?

Well, let me know when you can think of your story where you commanded someone be to instantly healed of their diagnosed paralysis.

Mark 16:16-18 is a prophecy of Jesus that was fulfilled in the first century AD. Nobody today has the gift of healing.

You make it sound like a formula. LOL If God tells me something that is going to happen to me, I don't have to say to myself, Thus says the Lord for it to happen.

How does God give you these prophecies? Do you hear an audible voice? Or is it a strong feeling or thought popping into your head?

 

[CharismaticLady]

Your not reading scripture. I keep putting it down for you.

6 Now when this was noised abroad, the multitude came together, and were confounded, because that every man heard them speak in his own language.

7 And they were all amazed and marvelled, saying one to another, Behold, are not all these which speak Galilaeans?

8 And how hear we every man in our own tongue, wherein we were born?

Read it again carefully.

every man heard them speak in his own language.

It was like a choir. Now do you understand what was really happening? What other supernatural ability lets you understand tongues?

 

[CharismaticLady]

It says the foreigners heard the disciples speaking in foreign languages. It couldn't be clearer:

Acts 2:6 "each one of them was hearing them speak in his own language"​

1 Cor 14:2 is also referring to someone speaking a foreign human language in Corinth. If someone was speaking say Persian in a small Greek house church, it is no surprise that no one understood.

The reference of tongues of angels in 1 Cor 13:1 is hyperbole, not something Paul actually did. It is one of several other hyperbole listed in v1-3.

Read my answer above this. I just answered it.

 

[CharismaticLady]

Well, let me know when you can think of your story where you commanded someone be to instantly healed of their diagnosed paralysis.

Let me know if you believe in commanding healing in Jesus name is for today.

 

[swordsman1]

Read my answer above this. I just answered it.

What did the foreigners hear? It tells us exactly what they heard:

Acts 2:6 "each one of them was hearing them speak in his own language"

 

[CharismaticLady]

What did the foreigners hear? It tells us exactly what they heard:

Acts 2:6 "each one of them was hearing them speak in his own language"

Read it again carefully.

every man heard them speak in his own language.

It was like a choir. Now do you understand what was really happening? What other supernatural ability lets you understand tongues?

 

[swordsman1]

I have read it carefully. It plainly says the foreigners heard them speaking in their own language. It can't be much clearer.

There is no mention of any other supernatural ability in Acts 2.

 

[Acts2:38]

Read it again carefully.

every man heard them speak in his own language.

It was like a choir. Now do you understand what was really happening? What other supernatural ability lets you understand tongues?

Um, you just proved the point I was trying to get across.

6 Now when this was noised abroad, the multitude came together, and were confounded, because that every man heard them speak in his own language.

7 And they were all amazed and marvelled, saying one to another, Behold, are not all these which speak Galilaeans?

8 And how hear we every man in our own tongue, wherein we were born?

That IS the gift of tongues. To be able to speak a language you have never studied nor knew before until the Holy Spirit gave that gift.

I am glad you finally agree. We can rest this case then? Refer back to my very first post that miracles ceased after the bibles completion. Therefore they do not happen today.

 

[Saint Steven]

'No,' is not an answer according to the scriptures that I have read.

What do you make of this?

James 4:3
When you ask, you do not receive, because you ask with wrong motives, that you may spend what you get on your pleasures.

 

[CharismaticLady]

Um, you just proved the point I was trying to get across.

6 Now when this was noised abroad, the multitude came together, and were confounded, because that every man heard them speak in his own language.

7 And they were all amazed and marvelled, saying one to another, Behold, are not all these which speak Galilaeans?

8 And how hear we every man in our own tongue, wherein we were born?

That IS the gift of tongues. To be able to speak a language you have never studied nor knew before until the Holy Spirit gave that gift.

I am glad you finally agree. We can rest this case then? Refer back to my very first post that miracles ceased after the bibles completion. Therefore they do not happen today.

Let's try this again. Let's say that three disciples were praising God in tongues all at the same time.

One was speaking German.
One was speaking French
One was speaking Japanese.

Three devout Jews were listening but came from different countries.

The Chinaman heard THEM speaking Chinese.
The American heard THEM speaking English.
The Mexican heard THEM speaking Spanish.

Understand? I don't know how to make it any clearer. I thought the highlighting would work, but, oh well.

Not only did the disciples speak supernaturally, the devout Jews heard them supernaturally. My question to you now is how?

 

[CharismaticLady]

What do you make of this?

James 4:3
When you ask, you do not receive, because you ask with wrong motives, that you may spend what you get on your pleasures.

Right. They were not praying God's will, so He wasn't listening, and they didn't receive anything.

Look at 1 John 5:14-15. It implies that God doesn't always hear us, otherwise we would always get what we prayed for, whether it was His will or not.