Number One Flaw in Cessationism

[CharismaticLady]

Depends. If your asking to get rich, or if you can have that car you wanted since you were a child, chances are that prayer will not be answered. God knows what we need, and is not inclined to give us what we desire.

Matthew 6
31 Therefore take no thought, saying, What shall we eat? or, What shall we drink? or, Wherewithal shall we be clothed?

32 (For after all these things do the Gentiles seek for your heavenly Father knoweth that ye have need of all these things.

Furthermore, if your family member has a life threatening cancer, or MS, whatever, God surely hears the prayer of the righteous. But there is something you are not considering. That family member will either get well through the providence of God (no miracles now days) or God will call upon their soul. In the end, it is Gods will be done regardless of the outcome whether favorable to you or not.

So I dont put down a whole heap of a post, here is a link showing you what I mean about Gods providence. Miracles are no longer existent.
A Study of Divine Providence

Oh, speaking of the "will of God", I leave you with 1 Peter 2:15 and John 7:17. And we do so by using the word of God, the bible, not miracles since they ceased.



Oh that's easy.

Acts 2
4 And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.

5 And there were dwelling at Jerusalem Jews, devout men, out of every nation under heaven.

6 Now when this was noised abroad, the multitude came together, and were confounded, because that every man heard them speak in his own language.

7 And they were all amazed and marvelled, saying one to another, Behold, are not all these which speak Galilaeans?

8 And how hear we every man in our own tongue, wherein we were born?

9 Parthians, and Medes, and Elamites, and the dwellers in Mesopotamia, and in Judaea, and Cappadocia, in Pontus, and Asia,

10 Phrygia, and Pamphylia, in Egypt, and in the parts of Libya about Cyrene, and strangers of Rome, Jews and proselytes,

11 Cretes and Arabians, we do hear them speak in our tongues the wonderful works of God.

12 And they were all amazed, and were in doubt, saying one to another, What meaneth this?

And if that isnt convincing enough for people that love to twist up grammar and context:
Greek word for Tongue(s)

γλῶσσα glōssa, gloce-sah'; of uncertain affinity; the tongue; by implication, a language (specially, one naturally unacquired):—tongue.

1. the tongue, a member of the body, an organ of speech
   
   
2. a tongue
   1. the language or dialect used by a particular people distinct from that of other nations

More information here as well
Can Christians Speak in Tongues Today?

Take note though, even in the secular world, the writers of those times like Herodotus use the word "tongues" when referring to speech or talk that others could understand.

The tongues now days is just a bunch of garbuldygook gibberish that none on earth could understand in any language.




Interesting. I give you scriptural evidence, and you reply with no evidence - "what if" type scenarios (we dont need what if's, we have scripture) - and then this lovely snarky, belittling, arrogant "P.S." note.

First, did I deserve that?
I don't think so. I merely congratulated you on all that was scriptural, and corrected you on all that was not scriptural.

Is that necessary to respond like that?
I dont think so. You post a thread knowing people will come, knowing they will discuss contrary to you. The lest you could do is hold composure.

Did I disrespect you in any way?
I dont see how, but maybe you could tell me if I did. All I really done was congratulate all the correct teaching and correct all the erroneous teaching.

So maybe next time we can have a more civil debate without the belligerence?

Why didn't the mockers understand their own language? Why did they think they were drunk? It is interesting that with 120 speaking in different languages at the same time as you think, that in that cacophony of sound, each of the devout Jews could pick out their own language from among them. How do you think that happened. I know, I just would like a discussion. Thanks.

 

[CharismaticLady]

1st and foremost! I have to search for the definition of "Cessationism" Then maybe, I might just find my way round.

Good point! Regarding the gifts of the Spirit, there are some who believe they 'ceased' while others believe they 'continued.' Therefore we have two groups: Cessationists and Continuists.

 

[CharismaticLady]

What you are missing is the Baptism of the Holy Spirit came only through the two outpourings, or through an apostle's hands.

I agree, it is the Holy Spirit that is in charge, and knows when are the early and latter rains.

 

[Albion]

There was a reason why God made tongues to be peculiar sounding. It is easy to mock, so don't tell me cessationists don't want it to have ended.

LOL No one here is mocking. No one here has said a thing about tongues sounding peculiar.

and complete unbelievers dare to call a gift of God, "gibberish" as if they have no fear of the Lord at all!

Is that the argument for continuationism in a nutshell--your interpretation of Scripture must stand because, well, some people may have been mean towards charismatics, just as some charismatics have been mean towards other Christians but...none of them are posting on this thread anyway???

 

[CharismaticLady]

LOL No one here is mocking. No one here has said a thing about tongues sounding peculiar.


Is that the argument for continuationism in a nutshell--your interpretation of Scripture must stand because, well, some people may have been mean towards charismatics, just as some charismatics have been mean towards other Christians but...none of them are posting on this thread anyway???

I didn't say they did on this particular post. But there have been others for years where the mocking has been intense. You are not a new member, so you know.

The reason for this post is Covenant Theology. NOTHING inside a covenant ceases, just as not a jot or a tittle ended until all was fulfilled in the Old Covenant. We are in a New Covenant, and the same rules apply to everything inside our covenant.

 

[swordsman1]

Interesting how you left off HOW they differ. Statements without fact.

Okay, as you wish....this is how the modern 'gifts' differ from the biblical descriptions:

The only description of the phenomenon of tongues we have in scripture is Acts 2 which clearly describes it as people having the miraculous ability to speak a foreign human language they have never learned. The idea of tongues being a non-human language was unheard of until the start of the twentieth century.

Although God can and sometimes does heal today in response to prayer, that is not the gift of healing as seen in the NT. The gift of healing is the supernatural ability to miraculously heal someone of a permanent/acute disability instantly and completely by simply a command or a touch, just as disciples did. If you have to pray for healing it proves you do not have the gift of healing.

Prophecy in the bible is God speaking real words to a prophet who then relays that message to the people, usually in the form "Thus says the Lord....", or something. That formula applies to both NT and OT prophets.

 

[Dave L]

I agree, it is the Holy Spirit that is in charge, and knows when are the early and latter rains.

What are your references?

 

[swordsman1]

They seemed to, yes. But on the Day of Pentecost Peter prophesied from the prophecy in Joel 2. In that prophecy there is the early and latter rain. That is the outpourings of the Holy Spirit in connection with the first and second comings of Christ.

The Day of Pentecost was the early rain. Then as you pointed out, tongues did seem to cease; however, they were found sprinkled throughout that time of church history. But now is the time of the latter rain, and now we see tongues flourishing again before the second coming.

Again, you don't know Covenant Theology which is the number one flaw in Cessationism. If you did, you wouldn't say anything ceased completely.

The 'latter rain' theory is a false interpretation of scripture. Charismatics have latched onto the term to try to give legitimacy to their movement which they regard as a new outpouring of the Holy Spirit. But the latter rain prophecy in Joel has nothing to do with tongues or the Holy Spirit. It is a seperate earlier prophecy by Joel which Peter did not quote at Pentecost. In the latter rain prophecy there is no indication that Joel was referring to anything other than God blessing the physical land of Israel as the context dictates. Rain had never been used as a metaphor for the Holy Spirit. If you are trying to symbolize the rain, then you must also symbolize everything else in that passage. What does the "beasts of the field" symbolize? The "pastures of the wilderness", the "tree has borne its fruit", the "fig tree and the vine" etc? You can't symbolize the rain with symbolizing those aspects too. It is simply a case of finding something, anything, that kind of fits to try and symbolize the charismatic movement and so justify it. If you look hard enough you can always find something in scripture to symbolize absolutely anything you care to think of.

 

[swordsman1]

There was a reason why God made tongues to be peculiar sounding. It is easy to mock, so don't tell me cessationists don't want it to have ended. Only they and complete unbelievers dare to call a gift of God, "gibberish" as if they have no fear of the Lord at all!

What is practiced today in Pentecostal/charismatic circles is not the true gift of tongues as defined in scripture. What people call 'tongues' today is a natural phenomenon of the flesh known to linguists as 'free vocalisation' or glossolalia, where the speech organs go into 'auto-pilot' and produce strings of random syllables. Professional linguists have been studying glossolalia for years. The most respected study is by Dr. William Samarin of the University of Toronto who did a 10 year study of Pentecostal tongues. Here are some excerpts from his study:

"There is no mystery about glossolalia. Tape recorded samples are easy to obtain and to analyze. They always turn out to be the same things: strings of syllables made up of sounds taken from among all those that the speaker knows, put together more or less haphazardly but which nevertheless emerge as word-like or sentence-like units”

"The speaker controls the rhythm, volume, speed and inflection of his speech so that the sounds emerge as pseudo- language -- in the form of words and sentences. Glossolalia is language-like because the speaker unconsciously wants it to be language-like. Yet in spite of superficial similarities, glossolalia fundamentally is not language.”

"All specimens of glossolalia that have ever been studied have produced no features that would even suggest that they reflect some kind of communicative system.”

"When the full apparatus of linguistic science comes to bear on glossolalia, this turns out to be only a facade of language; although at times a very good one indeed. For when we comprehend what language is, we must conclude that no glossa, no matter how well constructed, is a specimen of human language, because it is neither internally organized nor systematically related to the world man perceives."

“And it has already been established that no special power needs to take over a person's vocal organs; all of us are equipped with everything we need to produce glossolalia”

"Glossolalia is not a supernatural phenomenon....It is similar to many other kinds of speech humans produce in more or less normal circumstances, in more or less normal psychological states. In fact, anybody can produce glossolalia if he is uninhibited and if he discovers what the "trick" is"​

 

[Albion]

I didn't say they did on this particular post. But there have been others for years where the mocking has been intense. You are not a new member, so you know.

Yes, I know that both sides mock and sneer at the other one. Or I should say that some people on each side do that. However, it doesn't have anything to do with our exchange of posts here.

The reason for this post is Covenant Theology. NOTHING inside a covenant ceases, just as not a jot or a tittle ended until all was fulfilled in the Old Covenant. We are in a New Covenant, and the same rules apply to everything inside our covenant.

I appreciate the point and am satisfied that we've said what we thought we needed to say, so thanks for the conversation.

 

[CharismaticLady]

The only description of the phenomenon of tongues we have in scripture is Acts 2 which clearly describes it as people having the miraculous ability to speak a foreign human language they have never learned. The idea of tongues being a non-human language was unheard of until the start of the twentieth century.

We've gone over this before and it didn't make a dent in your thinking. 1 Corinthians 14:2 proves your theory of what happened on the Day of Pentecost is false. There are two gifts regarding tongues in 1 Corinthians 12. The disciples were speaking in tongues, and guess how the devout Jews understood what they were saying. (Without contradicting scripture as you have now, and in the past.)

Although God can and sometimes does heal today in response to prayer, that is not the gift of healing as seen in the NT. The gift of healing is the supernatural ability to miraculously heal someone of a permanent/acute disability instantly and completely by simply a command or a touch, just as disciples did. If you have to pray for healing it proves you do not have the gift of healing.

You are right. If you don't have faith or know who you are in Christ, then pass the buck in prayer. But when I used healing, I simply commanded the back to be healed in Jesus name. Then I left. The back was broken and she was paralyzed from the waist down with no feeling in her legs. She was walking by the next day.

Prophecy in the bible is God speaking real words to a prophet who then relays that message to the people, usually in the form "Thus says the Lord....", or something. That formula applies to both NT and OT prophets.

That can also be personal prophecy, and is not to the whole world, and "Thus says the Lord" is not necessary when you know God's voice. It just MUST come to pass. There is also a difference between the office of prophet who obviously has the gift of prophecy, and anyone else who can hear God's voice. Peter was given the gift of prophecy on Pentecost when he interpreted an Old Testament prophecy as being fulfilled that day. Understanding what the only correct interpretation of scripture is also prophecy. It is not foretelling, but forth-telling. I've experienced both kinds.

 

[CharismaticLady]

What is practiced today in Pentecostal/charismatic circles is not the true gift of tongues as defined in scripture. What people call 'tongues' today is a natural phenomenon of the flesh known to linguists as 'free vocalisation' or glossolalia, where the speech organs go into 'auto-pilot' and produce strings of random syllables. Professional linguists have been studying glossolalia for years. The most respected study is by Dr. William Samarin of the University of Toronto who did a 10 year study of Pentecostal tongues. Here are some excerpts from his study:

"There is no mystery about glossolalia. Tape recorded samples are easy to obtain and to analyze. They always turn out to be the same things: strings of syllables made up of sounds taken from among all those that the speaker knows, put together more or less haphazardly but which nevertheless emerge as word-like or sentence-like units”

"The speaker controls the rhythm, volume, speed and inflection of his speech so that the sounds emerge as pseudo- language -- in the form of words and sentences. Glossolalia is language-like because the speaker unconsciously wants it to be language-like. Yet in spite of superficial similarities, glossolalia fundamentally is not language.”

"All specimens of glossolalia that have ever been studied have produced no features that would even suggest that they reflect some kind of communicative system.”

"When the full apparatus of linguistic science comes to bear on glossolalia, this turns out to be only a facade of language; although at times a very good one indeed. For when we comprehend what language is, we must conclude that no glossa, no matter how well constructed, is a specimen of human language, because it is neither internally organized nor systematically related to the world man perceives."

“And it has already been established that no special power needs to take over a person's vocal organs; all of us are equipped with everything we need to produce glossolalia”

"Glossolalia is not a supernatural phenomenon....It is similar to many other kinds of speech humans produce in more or less normal circumstances, in more or less normal psychological states. In fact, anybody can produce glossolalia if he is uninhibited and if he discovers what the "trick" is"​

What you call "according to scripture" is your faulty opinion based on just what you think happened on the Day of Pentecost, but so wrong its funny. There is a rule in scripture that you completely contradict. 1 Cor. 14:2.

 

[Jesus is YHWH]

Good point! Regarding the gifts of the Spirit, there are some who believe they 'ceased' while others believe they 'continued.' Therefore we have two groups: Cessationists and Continuists.

Actually that is a half truth they believe the charismatic gifts of tongues, healings, prophecy , miracles given to individuals have ceased and ended with the Apostlic age.

hope this helps !!!

 

[swordsman1]

Tongues and the other gifts didn't cease. They were just less prevalent.

A search on "spiritual gifts through the ages" yields historic info on this.

A.D. 100 - Eusebius (Church Historian):
Writing to the preaching evangelists who were yet living, Eusebius says:
"Of those that flourished in these times, Quadratus is said to have been distinguished
for his prophetical gifts. There were many others, also, noted in these times who held
rank in the apostolic succession... the Holy Spirit also wrought many wonders as yet
through them, so that as the Gospel was heard, men in crowds voluntarily and eagerly
embraced the true faith with their whole minds."

A.D. 115-202 - Irenaeus:
Irenaeus was a pupil of Polycarp, who was a disciple of the apostle John.
He wrote in his book "Against Heresies", Book V, vi.: "In like manner do we also hear
many brethren in the church who possess prophetic gifts, and who through the Spirit
speak all kinds of languages, and bring to light, for the general benefit, the hidden
things of men and declare the mysteries of God, who also the apostles term spiritual."

The early church fathers (c. 100 AD) did indeed say that tongues was still active. But that was before the completed canon was distributed among the churches. Notice that Iranaeus says he has only heard of such events - he hasn't witnessed them first hand. So already they were becoming rare. But the later church fathers (>c.300 AD) were unanimous that the miraculous gifts had ceased:

Augustine - The Homilies On John
In the earliest time, “the Holy Ghost fell upon them that believed; and they spake with tongues,” which they had not learned, “as the Spirit gave them utterance.” These were the Sign adapted to the time. For there behooved to be that betokening of the Holy Spirit in all tongues, to show that the Gospel of God was to run through all tongues over the whole earth. That thing was done for a betokening, and it passed away.​

Augustine - Retractions
For not even now, when a hand is laid on the baptized, do they receive the Holy Spirit in such a way that they speak with the tongues of all nations; nor are the sick now healed by the passing shadow of the preachers of Christ. Even though such things happened at that time, manifestly these ceased later. ​

Chrysostom - Commentary on 1 Corinthians 12
This whole passage is exceedingly obscure; and what creates the obscurity is both ignorance of these matters and the cessation of things which happened then but do not now occur.

Chrysostom - Commentary on 1 Cor 13:8
For if both these [gifts of prophecy and tongues] were brought in for the sake of the faith; when that is every where sown abroad, the use of these is henceforth superfluous. . . . It is no marvel that prophecies and tongues should be done away.

Theodoret - Commentary on the First Epistle to the Corinthians:
In former times those who accepted the divine preaching and who were baptized for their salvation were given visible signs of the grace of the Holy Spirit at work in them. Some spoke in tongues which they did not know and which nobody had taught them, while others performed miracles or prophesied. The Corinthians also did these things, but they did not use the gifts as they should have done. They were more interested in showing off than in using them for the edification of the church. ​

A.D. 300 - The Early Martyrs:
The early martyrs enjoyed these gifts. Dean Ferrar, in his book "Darkness to Dawn" states:
"Even for the minutest allusions and particulars I have contemporary authority." He refers
to the persecuted Christians in Rome singing and speaking in unknown tongues.

Some guy in his book claiming the early martyrs spoke in tongues is not acceptable proof. What are his sources?

A.D. 390 - Chrysostom of Constantinople:
Chrysostom, Bishop of Constantinople, writes: "Whoever was baptised in apostolic days,
he straightway spoke with tongues, for since on their coming over from idols, without any
clear knowledge or training in the Scriptures, they at once received the Spirit, not that
they saw the Spirit, for He is invisible, but God's grace bestowed some sensible proof of
His energy, and one straightway spoke in the Persian language, another in the Roman,
another in the Indian, another in some other tongues, and this made manifest to them that
were without that it was the Spirit in the very person speaking. Wherefore the apostle
calls it the manifestation of the Spirit which is given to every man to profit withal."

Your quote by Chrysostom is referring to those "in apostolic days", not his present time. It was written in the past tense. You have unwittingly quoted a source that argues FOR cessationism.

A.D. 400 - Augustine of Hippo:
Augustine, Bishop of Hippo, one of the four great fathers of the Latin Church and
considered the greatest of them all: "We still do what the apostles did when they laid
hands on the Samaritans and called down the Holy Spirit on them in the laying-on of hands.
It is expected that converts should speak with new tongues."

This quote from Augustine is bogus. This quote first appeared in a Pentecostal publication and has since been reproduced in several other articles and websites, but nobody can cite the work of Augustine's that it comes from. It is an example of pentecostal/charismatic dishonesty. Augustine said that tongues had ceased.

 

[Albion]

Actually that is a half truth they believe the charismatic gifts of tongues, healings, prophecy , miracles given to individuals have ceased and ended with the Apostlic age.

hope this helps !!!

Technically, that isn't quite accurate either, but maybe there is nothing to be accomplished by going into it any further.

 

[CharismaticLady]

Actually that is a half truth they believe the charismatic gifts of tongues, healings, prophecy , miracles given to individuals have ceased and ended with the Apostlic age.

hope this helps !!!

Yes, they do, and they were wrong. What do you believe for yourself?
How do you explain the same things happening now?

 

[swordsman1]

Why didn't the mockers understand their own language? Why did they think they were drunk? It is interesting that with 120 speaking in different languages at the same time as you think, that in that cacophony of sound, each of the devout Jews could pick out their own language from among them. How do you think that happened. I know, I just would like a discussion. Thanks.

The mockers were not the foreign pilgrims, they were the local inhabitants who didn't recognize that foreign languages were being spoken, so it is unsurprising they thought they were drunk when the only language expected to be heard in the Temple Courts was Hebrew.

Acts 2:14 But Peter, taking his stand with the eleven, raised his voice and declared to them: “Men of Judea and all you who live in Jerusalem, let this be known to you and give heed to my words. For these men are not drunk, as you suppose, for it is only the third hour of the day;​

 

[swordsman1]

1 Corinthians 14:2 proves your theory of what happened on the Day of Pentecost is false.

It is no theory, the plain reading of Acts 2 is indisputably foreign human languages. How does 1 Cor 14:2, taken in context, prove that tongues is a non-human language?

But when I used healing, I simply commanded the back to be healed in Jesus name. Then I left. The back was broken and she was paralyzed from the waist down with no feeling in her legs. She was walking by the next day.

What are you referring to? An unsubstantiated claim of you commanding the instant healing someone of a broken back? Go on then tell us the story.

That can also be personal prophecy, and is not to the whole world, and "Thus says the Lord" is not necessary when you know God's voice. It just MUST come to pass. There is also a difference between the office of prophet who obviously has the gift of prophecy, and anyone else who can hear God's voice.

And what do you mean by hearing God's voice? A strong feeling or a thought popping into your head? Where in scripture is prophecy ever described as such? In scripture both public and personal prophecy is given as "Thus says the Lord..." (see Acts 21:11).

 

[Albion]

It is no theory, the plain reading of Acts 2 is indisputably foreign human languages. How does 1 Cor 14:2, taken in context, prove that tongues is a non-human language?

The Bible passage itself attests to the languages being actual languages, not "ecstatic languages," "angelic languages," or some sort of "prayer language."

 

[Acts2:38]

Why didn't the mockers understand their own language?

Read the verses again. They did understand them.

Acts 2

7 And they were all amazed and marvelled, saying one to another, Behold, are not all these which speak Galilaeans?
8 And how hear we every man in our own tongue, wherein we were born?

11 Cretes and Arabians, we do hear them speak in our tongues the wonderful works of God.

Given the definition of the Greek word, the context, etc, one is forced to say that this is merely the Holy Spirit allowing the disciples to speak languages they have had no study in nor knew. They were Galilaeans.



γλῶσσα glōssa, gloce-sah'; of uncertain affinity; the tongue; by implication, a language (specially, one naturally unacquired):—tongue.

1. the tongue, a member of the body, an organ of speech
   
   
2. a tongue
   1. the language or dialect used by a particular people distinct from that of other nations

Why did they think they were drunk?

Because they were mocking them.
13 Others mocking said, These men are full of new wine.

People mock Christians all the time even today. When I was a worldly person, I've hung around the alcoholic scene plenty to know that they do not speak the gibberish people want to say "tongues" is today. They slur sure. Broken sentence structure, sure. But they were still able to speak their native language. Not the gibberish that goes on with people who want to believe miracles still happen now.

Since they were mocking them, it would be no surprise that they would state Peter and the others to be drunk off sweet wine grape juice.

It is interesting that with 120 speaking in different languages at the same time as you think, that in that cacophony of sound, each of the devout Jews could pick out their own language from among them.

120? Where did that number come in?

What is even more interesting, is that you believe in miracles, yet you somehow dont believe that these people could hear their own language. Also, it wasnt just Jews, verses 9-11 state many other different nations of people too.

Though, I personally do not find it that hard to differentiate my own language in crowded, diverse environments. Born in a heavy tourist happy location, we would get into events that were crowded full of people of different languages, all talking, and I can find out who is speaking English. Of course if they are close enough for my hearing in a crowed place. However, that is not a miraculous event either.

Because that was a miraculous event, it shouldn't be too hard to believe.

I know, I just would like a discussion.

If you knew, why would we be discussing contrary to each other? Using scripture and the Greek wording, I have proven so. I am not using my opinions.

And so, I kindly refer you back to my very first posting. That is the evidence in scripture proving miracles are no longer.

Hello,

I really enjoyed your explanation and scriptural truth up until the "miracles/gifts" part. This section here I put in quoting you:



This is the one part I would say is in scriptural error. The rest seemed spot on.

#1 First error, you compared "prayer" as a miraculous gift on the same level as tongues and what have you. It is not. "Prayer" is a "spiritual blessing" reserved for those who are in Christ. There is a huge difference there. Everyone (unsaved and saved) has the "physical blessing" of "being fruitful and multiplying" which is quite obviously not a miracle (supernatural going against what is natural or normal). However only the saved are granted access to prayer.

Ephesians 1
1 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, to the saints which are at Ephesus, and to the faithful in Christ Jesus:

2 Grace be to you, and peace, from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ.

3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:

It continues to list a broad spectrum of the blessings, in the following verses in which prayer would fall under.

It is clear that God would listen to any with that blessing of prayer so long as they are "in Christ" (Galatians 3:26-27;Ephesians 1:3) when looking at 1 Peter 3:12. The reason I mention this is because when it came to miracles, people granted the miracles gifts didnt typically have ALL of the miracles, hence when Paul mentioned:

9 For we know in part, and we prophesy in part. (1 Cor. 13)

Elsewhere we also see Paul said:
1 Cor. 12
8 For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit;

9 To another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit;

10 To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues:

So it would be obvious prayer is not a miraculous gift, but a spiritual blessing, which is different, because everyone "in Christ" has access to prayer to God through Jesus.


#2 The second error, is you imply miraculous gifts still happen today.

Paul was quite clear that these would vanish away when a certain event happened. John and Mark also support this.

First Paul.
1 Cor. 13
8 Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away.

9 For we know in part, and we prophesy in part.

10 But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.

Since Christ is not a "that", but a "he", it would stand to reason that the "that which is perfect" is the bible, which was not fully written out until around 96 AD. We know for a fact as well that scripture from God written by men through the Holy Spirit, makes scripture just that, perfect 2 Timothy 3:16-17.

So I dont leave any loose ends, the "knowledge" talked about in verse 8 is merely the miraculous gift of knowledge mentioned in 1 Corinthians 12:8. Not to be confused with just normal simple knowledge we can obtain, but knowledge granted by the Holy Spirit. Some people get hung up on that one so I jotted it in here.

Paul even states this here to the Ephesians in chpt 4
11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;

12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:

13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:

14 That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;

15 But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ:

16 From whom the whole body fitly joined together and compacted by that which every joint supplieth, according to the effectual working in the measure of every part, maketh increase of the body unto the edifying of itself in love.

This supports 1 Cor 13 in the fact that miracles (supernatural against what is normal/natural process) will cease "when that which is perfect comes".

Miracles were only used to "confirm the word", show the world that Jesus was the Christ, and to "perfect the saints for ministry and edify the body of Christ (Eph 4:12)"

John says,
20:30 And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book:

31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.

Mark says,
16:20 And they went forth, and preached every where, the Lord working with them, and confirming the word with signs following. Amen.

All 4 gospels witness that Jesus is the Christ.

So, do we need to have the word confirmed now days?

The bible is completed. There wont be any more revelations. There is no need for miracles anymore. It has all been confirmed now. It's our job to be messengers with this completed word.