Null/Voided Out

[mlepfitjw]

Yes.



Yes; I don't believe in predestination.



Yes.



No.
I don't believe that God who made everyone in his image and who is love, would destine some of those he had made in his image, to never know him. And especially not then punish them for rejecting him, when he had already decided, and planned, that they would never be allowed to know him.

Strong in him, why do you not believe in predestination? For you would to say you were predestined would that give you a sense of being prideful?

In my early days of my first walk, learning the Gospels I became very prideful. Looking down on others, and harshly judging against them.

You make a good ending statement about God not ending up punishing them. To me that would not seem right either.

It's complex.

The Bible doesn't say much about Matthew choosing or not.

For me I battled becoming a Christian for 10 years. I didn't want to believe. As I got convinced about the biblical truth about Jesus I wanted to be a Christian and I chose to give my life to Jesus. Where was my choice in all that? Hard to tell. I needed to be convinced that it was true first, to choose Jesus. The evidence had to be strong, since I took all escape routes possible.

A good question is, if someone acknowledges the Bible to be true, could he still choose to not become a Christian?

Hey Zoidar, how are you feeling? Hope you been doing better lately friend. I believe you did make a great question with the wording you chose. You are right it is only speculation about Matthew. Also in your 10 year search solid case evidence is needed to be able to choose whether or not a person accepts Gods forgiveness.

We have a choice what to accept or what to reject. Jesus made it clear, as does the entire Bible, that we are to choose the self serving ways of man (as Eve once did) or choose the will of God (as Jesus did in never putting His will ahead of the will of the Father.) That basically sums up the whole thing.

All people through various ways, from outside teachings to self introspect, can come to understand the difference and make a choice. Jesus' first followers were not even deep into the Jewish 'religion' but were simply oppressed and saw the causes of their oppression and dreamt of a what if situation for a way out. These were women, servants and slaves familiar with oppression. However, until they heard Jesus proclaim it, it was only a dream, not a reality that a way out had been created as told in the Gospel of the Kingdom.

But these people and many before no doubt had already condemned the self serving ways of man without even having heard of an option. They had repented without reward. What does that say of people today who know of the reward but are still hesitant to reject the self serving ways of man.

BUT... were they predestined to feel this way or did their situation create a longing for another way, such as the counter-culture of the Kingdom that Jesus offered. Was God even on their radar? Who knows? Speaking for myself, the farthest back I can remember being curious about God was about four years old thanks to Christmas. That was long before (although already practised as seen in era Christmas carols) it became politically incorrect to discriminate between various types of celebration. People were content with a blend.

That beginning has lead to decades and decades of seeking God, going through all the angles from reverse engineering Him to seeing how the world as a whole sought Him out, how He related to humans, and what He meant to the world of man. Religion played little part after the early Sunday school days which taught basics with out any nourishment. Too much do as we say and not as we do. The search was for God and not the details of self serving religious institutions that were more concerned about retaining followers to their particular agenda and following their rules, than teaching what the oppressed of Jesus' time already knew. Oppressors teaching the oppressed, blind leading the blind.

Was that search predestined? Has all I have learned and all I have rejected been part of my pre-destiny? Is the continual desire to still learn choice or controlled? Who knows? I'm just enjoying the ride and have no idea whether my name is in the book of life. One thing I have learned is ultimately, it is not about me. It is about God telling us in no uncertain terms that He will have His will done ahead of ours at some point soon, whether we like it or not.

Timothyu, what a powerful story here sharing your experience allows people to get an idea of your mind over the years from when you were just a young child. How awesome you got to live and experience all of these things, searching for God. Very awesome and insightful. You are most certainly right about Gods will he will be able to do what he needs to be done, I agree with you on that. You are also right it's about having a relationship with God, while enjoying your life that God has given you!

Study John 17. The Greek word for 'apostle' means to be 'sent'. Not everyone is an Apostle. There has to be a leadership, and at Jesus' 1st coming there was, His Apostles He chose that were 'sent' into the world just as He was. Within Lord Jesus' prayer in John 17, He defines two groups, the first group being those who are chosen sent ones, and then the other group being those who believe by hearing their preaching of The Gospel (the other disciples, and us).

There are still chosen ones today that are 'sent', but not in the same sense as Christ's Apostles at His 1st coming.

Davy I had no idea about that, though I believe angel is a messanger, and apostle is different. I kind of disagree about there being any apostle but they are most certainly Angels 'messangers' out there doing their work for God, in unknowing good ways that glorify Him.

 

[PaulCyp1]

If salvation and condemnation are preordained, then earthly life is totally meaningless. Why follow Jesus? Why go to Church? Why try to live a moral life? Eat, drink and be merry, get all you can for yourself, and use other people in whatever way will benefit you - for tomorrow you die, and what happens next is completely unrelated to how you lived your life on Earth. Fortunately, that is not what Jesus Christ taught.

 

[FutureAndAHope]

What are your thoughts on this subject.

Is following Christ Jesus Christ a choice?

Did Matthew when Jesus stated ‘follow me’ make the choice to do so? Maybe this one was predestined?

Either way, can people make the choice to follow God or completely reject him in this life? Or is it a preordained thing and only some people get to the choice to?

First we need to blow out of the water the idea that God predestines people's choices. See the following verse from Genisis.

Gen 6:5-6 And GOD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. And it repented the LORD that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart.

Here we see that God was unable to "foresee", man's behavior. This shows us that God has given man free will.

It makes sense that man has free will, otherwise God is a tyrant. If God truly forces people to hell, gives them no choice, is God not unjust?

But we see from scripture:

2Pe 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

So who perish? Those who love not the truth, but take pleasure in unrighteousness.

2Th 2:10-12 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

 

[Jamdoc]

What are your thoughts on this subject.

Is following Christ Jesus Christ a choice?

Did Matthew when Jesus stated ‘follow me’ make the choice to do so? Maybe this one was predestined?

Either way, can people make the choice to follow God or completely reject him in this life? Or is it a preordained thing and only some people get to the choice to?

Good question, and difficult to answer.
We know for sure that God has foreknowledge of everyone that will follow Him, so when Jesus asked Matthew to follow Him, while Matthew still had the choice to reject, Jesus already knew He'd follow. So that foreknowledge of course influences who Jesus would approach, He didn't tell other tax collectors to follow Him, He chose Matthew, because He knew Matthew would follow and be a faithful disciple, knew He'd write one of the gospels

Because of the foreknowledge, it's hard to say if we really had a choice because God already knows what we'll choose.
"Many are called, few are chosen"
We know we can't come to faith on our own, God has to draw us close to Him first.
I see the evidence of this in my own family. I can tell my mom about the Gospel but she utterly rejects it as foolishness. She doesn't like "religion".
My sister knows the gospel, wants to believe, but can't.
Her words about it were kind of telling, she is conscious that until God does a work in her life, she cannot have faith, she recognizes that people who have come to faith have had a work done by God to them first, then they come to faith. So she doesn't even believe in God. Because so far God has not chosen her, she cannot choose Him.
Please pray for that to change for her.

 

[Neogaia777]

It's both, from our perspective it is a choice that we either make or do not make or take, but it is a choice one cannot make (or else not make) unless they are already predestined or foreordained to do so (or not do so) by the Father...

God Bless!

 

[ladodgers6]

What are your thoughts on this subject.

Is following Christ Jesus Christ a choice?

Did Matthew when Jesus stated ‘follow me’ make the choice to do so? Maybe this one was predestined?

Either way, can people make the choice to follow God or completely reject him in this life? Or is it a preordained thing and only some people get to the choice to?

Yes, but remembering its his calling us to come forward. Do you understand and believe the Gospel?

 

[Mark Quayle]

What are your thoughts on this subject.

Is following Christ Jesus Christ a choice?

Did Matthew when Jesus stated ‘follow me’ make the choice to do so? Maybe this one was predestined?

Either way, can people make the choice to follow God or completely reject him in this life? Or is it a preordained thing and only some people get to the choice to?

If anything is predestined/ preordained, it all is. But, yes, we do choose, and that according to our own will. Either cause-and-effect rules, or it does not and all is chaos. I personally see no chaos --it is all by the purpose of God.

 

[timothyu]

Either cause-and-effect rules, or it does not and all is chaos. I personally see no chaos --it is all by the purpose of God.

We never knew the chaos until Eve and we weren't meant to. But once we did know it, the ol' cause and effect game, what was the choice? Destroy us or let us spend millennia figuring out how troublesome it could be if misused and leave the thinking to the adults?

 

[Religiot]

What are your thoughts on this subject.

Is following Christ Jesus Christ a choice?

Did Matthew when Jesus stated ‘follow me’ make the choice to do so? Maybe this one was predestined?

Either way, can people make the choice to follow God or completely reject him in this life? Or is it a preordained thing and only some people get to the choice to?

According to Moses, it is a choice:

"See, I have set before thee this day life and good, and death and evil; in that I command thee this day to love the Lord thy God, to walk in his ways, and to keep his commandments and his statutes and his judgments, that thou mayest live and multiply: and the Lord thy God shall bless thee in the land whither thou goest to possess it. But if thine heart turn away, so that thou wilt not hear, but shalt be drawn away, and worship other gods, and serve them; I denounce unto you this day, that ye shall surely perish, and that ye shall not prolong your days upon the land, whither thou passest over Jordan to go to possess it. I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live: that thou mayest love the Lord thy God, and that thou mayest obey his voice, and that thou mayest cleave unto him: for he is thy life, and the length of thy days: that thou mayest dwell in the land which the Lord sware unto thy fathers, to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob, to give them." --Deuteronomy 30:15-20

According to Joshua, it is a choice:

"Now therefore fear the Lord, and serve him in sincerity and in truth: and put away the gods which your fathers served on the other side of the flood, and in Egypt; and serve ye the Lord. And if it seem evil unto you to serve the Lord, choose you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the Lord. And the people answered and said, God forbid that we should forsake the Lord, to serve other gods; for the Lord our God, he it is that brought us up and our fathers out of the land of Egypt, from the house of bondage, and which did those great signs in our sight, and preserved us in all the way wherein we went, and among all the people through whom we passed: and the Lord drave out from before us all the people, even the Amorites which dwelt in the land: therefore will we also serve the Lord; for he is our God. And Joshua said unto the people, Ye cannot serve the Lord: for he is an holy God; he is a jealous God; he will not forgive your transgressions nor your sins. If ye forsake the Lord, and serve strange gods, then he will turn and do you hurt, and consume you, after that he hath done you good. And the people said unto Joshua, Nay; but we will serve the Lord. And Joshua said unto the people, Ye are witnesses against yourselves that ye have chosen you the Lord, to serve him. And they said, We are witnesses. Now therefore put away, said he, the strange gods which are among you, and incline your heart unto the Lord God of Israel. And the people said unto Joshua, The Lord our God will we serve, and his voice will we obey. So Joshua made a covenant with the people that day, and set them a statute and an ordinance in Shechem." --Joshua 24:14-25

According to David, it is a choice:

"I have chosen the way of truth: thy judgments have I laid before me." --Psalms 119:30

"Let thine hand help me; for I have chosen thy precepts." --Psalms 119:173

According to Solomon, it is a choice:

"For that they hated knowledge, and did not choose the fear of the Lord: they would none of my counsel: they despised all my reproof. Therefore shall they eat of the fruit of their own way, and be filled with their own devices. For the turning away of the simple shall slay them, and the prosperity of fools shall destroy them. But whoso hearkeneth unto me shall dwell safely, and shall be quiet from fear of evil." --Proverbs 1:29-33

According to Elijah, it is a choice:

"And Elijah came unto all the people, and said, How long halt ye between two opinions? if the Lord be God, follow him: but if Baal, then follow him. And the people answered him not a word." --1 Kings 18:21

According to Isaiah, it is a choice:

"Neither let the son of the stranger, that hath joined himself to the Lord, speak, saying, The Lord hath utterly separated me from his people: neither let the eunuch say, Behold, I am a dry tree. For thus saith the Lord unto the eunuchs that keep my sabbaths, and choose the things that please me, and take hold of my covenant; even unto them will I give in mine house and within my walls a place and a name better than of sons and of daughters: I will give them an everlasting name, that shall not be cut off." --Isaiah 56:3-5

I must digress, otherwise, I will be copy and pasting the entire bible; which leads me to my point: I have found the entire bible to both present and maintain this theme, without equivocation, nor variance, whatever.

I don't understand how this is maintained in theological discussions, when it cannot be maintained in the bible, without immediately generating an internal contradiction.

How can this be? am I really this stupid? --I must be, cause for the life of me, I cannot get the scriptures to say that we do not choose God, and that by His foreknowledge, through our faith, by His grace, He predestined us.

What's the deal folks?

Can someone please explain what it is they think I'm missing?

 

[BrotherDave]

What are your thoughts on this subject.

Is following Christ Jesus Christ a choice?

I don’t believe we can choose because as sinners we will not / cannot choose the path of righteousness (Ro 3:10, Ps 14:3, Ecc 7:20, ). We love our sin, we are spiritually dead in sin (Col 2:13) and cannot choose to follow God the way He requires. Even if we could choose to follow God the problem here is that this gives us a role in our salvation. Making a choice is a work we do and our works are as filthy rags (Is 64:6). We would like to believe that we have the power to affect our spiritual condition but we cannot take any credit. It all belongs to God.

We will only truly follow Christ if He first saves us (Ro 1:6, Phil 2:13, II Thes 3:5) . After that miracle we become prisoners of Christ, slaves of righteousness (Eph 3:1, Ro 6:18) that will keep His commandments and hunger and thirst after righteousness (Matt 5:6). Before salvation we naturally follow the way of man, after, we become uncomfortable with those ways and follow Christ, giving him all the glory he deserves (John 6:29). As we mature as a Christian our lives become a witness of Him and we bring hope to other sinners (1 John 2:3) that they may be saved as well. This is true love, the desire that others may know Christ the way we do and have eternal life with our Savior.

 

[Mark Quayle]

We never knew the chaos until Eve and we weren't meant to. But once we did know it, the ol' cause and effect game, what was the choice? Destroy us or let us spend millennia figuring out how troublesome it could be if misused and leave the thinking to the adults?

Huh?

 

[John Mullally]

Even if we could choose to follow God the problem here is that this gives us a role in our salvation. Making a choice is a work we do and our works are as filthy rags (Is 64:6).

Fortunately, Peter led by the Holy Spirit on the day of Pentecost made it simple in Acts 2:38-39:

Acts 2:36 “Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly that God has made this Jesus, whom you crucified, both Lord and Christ.” 37 Now when they heard this, they were cut to the heart, and said to Peter and the rest of the apostles, “Men and brethren, what shall we do?” 38 Then Peter said to them, “Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. 39 For the promise is to you and to your children, and to all who are afar off, as many as the Lord our God will call.” 40 And with many other words he testified and exhorted them, saying, “Be saved from this perverse generation.” 41 Then those who gladly received his word were baptized; and that day about three thousand souls were added to them​

 

[SamanthaAnastasia]

What are your thoughts on this subject.

Is following Christ Jesus Christ a choice?

Did Matthew when Jesus stated ‘follow me’ make the choice to do so? Maybe this one was predestined?

Either way, can people make the choice to follow God or completely reject him in this life? Or is it a preordained thing and only some people get to the choice to?

Yes.

 

[aiki]

What are your thoughts on this subject.

Is following Christ Jesus Christ a choice?

Did Matthew when Jesus stated ‘follow me’ make the choice to do so? Maybe this one was predestined?

Either way, can people make the choice to follow God or completely reject him in this life? Or is it a preordained thing and only some people get to the choice to?

www.soteriology101.com

 

[ladodgers6]

What are your thoughts on this subject.

Is following Christ Jesus Christ a choice?

Did Matthew when Jesus stated ‘follow me’ make the choice to do so? Maybe this one was predestined?

Either way, can people make the choice to follow God or completely reject him in this life? Or is it a preordained thing and only some people get to the choice to?

Do you understand why you have to follow Christ?

 

[Goodhuman]

We are completely free.

 

[Mark Quayle]

We are completely free.

You are saying this in answer to whom -- what post?

 

[Goodhuman]

The first.

 

[Mark Quayle]

The first.

I expect that was in answer to me asking to whom you were responding. Ok..

Anyhow, I'll bite. What is your point in saying we are completely free? Who is completely free --all people, or just the regenerated?

What are your implications, that you didn't say anything about --as if they are obvious by simply saying we are completely free?

 

[mlepfitjw]

No need in questioning anyone’s motives here. No need to be angry or prove your point right. People are free to see how they do, believe how they do, respond like they do.

We can choose to love or hate. I read all of your post. Some come from doctrinal stand point, in which I disagree with, some post come from the Bible saying it is a choice. So it’s up to people and what they decide to do about believing God, or rejecting.

Sometimes it takes years, even past 60 for someone to finally accept the forgiveness God offers through Jesus Christ our Lord.