Null/Voided Out

[mlepfitjw]

. Who were the people damned and chastened, was that but the pharisees, that said they had faith but showed no love to others?

Do they think of themselves sometimes as higher than thou attitude was when Jesus got angry with them, and Israel in Jerusalem where all his brothers and sisters, did not even believe. Jesus was just a Carpenter for 30 years then went to ministering the coming of the Kingdom.

To all the people and nations that he visited. Some he did miracles in and some he was unable. healing many who believed from their sickness, anxieties, and Jesus wants to make a connection with everyone but because of their lack of faith, and untrusting hearts, that need encouragement and show agape love regardless of who they are from time to time.

 

[Light of the East]

QUOTE="Dkh587

Destruction can be temporary or permanent. You can destroy something and build it again, or you can destroy something and never build it again.

____________________________________________________________________________

Do you realize you just described Apokatastasis? Perfect description of 1 Corinthians 3:

1Corinthians 3:13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is. 14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. 15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss (destruction of something) : but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire. 16 Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you? 17 If any man defile (φθείρει φθείρω phtheirō) the temple of God, him shall God destroy (φθείρει φθείρω phtheirō) ; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are.

Well!!!! This is interesting!! This is why I so much like challenges to what I believe. They make me work and when I work, I find out things. Here is yet another example of just how ATROCIOUS the KJV and other Western, Latin-based translations of the Sacred Scriptures really are!!! It is amazing to me how the KJV and other Western translators have played fast and loose with the Greek to make it say what they want it to say.

This is why I prefer Young's Literal Translation. Let's look:

1Corinthians 3:17 if any one the sanctuary of God doth waste, him shall God waste; for the sanctuary of God is holy, the which ye are.

That God would destroy that which He make to become a god is a foolishness you cannot ascribe to our Omniscient Father. Much rather that He would "destroy" (as per the wretched translation of the KJV) that which is in the man (or woman) that is contrary to His purposes so that the man or woman themselves might be saved, but so as by fire.

This is what Orthodoxy believes. There is no such "place" as hell. Romish fantasy. The fire is GOD!! (
Heb 12:29 for also our God is a consuming fire.). All people go to be in this fire. The fire of God's love consumes (DESTROYS) all that is not like Him, purging us, making us clean, and making us ready for being gods. For the wicked, this is both tormenting and can take a long, LONG time, depending on the severity of the wickedness in the soul.

The DESTRUCTION is not of the soul, but of the things that make up the false man, the "old self" that St. Paul spoke of.

The purpose of God is not destruction or torment. That was not the purpose or goal for which the Creation was made, and especially not that for which man was made.

It is glory!!!

EDIT: Just had a thought here. God destroyed me 50 years ago. 50 years ago, I was one of the most vile people on earth. I was 22 years old and lived for drugs, fornication, blaspheming His name, attacking His Church, etc.

That person is destroyed. He doesn't exist anymore. When I think of those things, rather than the thoughts giving me pleasure and desire, they revulse me. Why? Because that man has been destroyed. He is dead - gone - never to exist again.

Yet I still live.

That's what you said in your post. That's what I'm trying to say. And that's what Universal Salvation is. Some in this life (the easy way) some in the next (the very hard and painful way).

 

[Light of the East]

QUOTE="Dkh587,

It means that people are destroyed because of what they don’t know, which you argue against.

I don’t have a “going to heaven or hell” view.

I view things in terms of either entering into the kingdom of God & receiving eternal life, or not entering the kingdom of God and being destroyed forever.

You know, actually I agree with this. As I posted before, the "old me" that lived for wickedness has been destroyed forever. Now the new me shall live forever. The only thing that we disagee on is what it means to be destroyed. You post that it means cessation of existence. I say that it means destruction of the evil so that the good comes forth.

 

[Light of the East]

Christ plainly taught that the road to eternal life is narrow and only a few find it... it seems that you’re trying to build an idea of the God of Abraham based on what *you* feel he should or should not be like, rather than what his Jesus, his prophets and apostles teach that he is like.

No, Jesus didn't "plainly teach" what you are saying. Look, if you want to play "Bible Scholar" then do it honestly. The word "aionios" has been hideously mistranslated to mean "eternal" when it means nothing of the sort. The KJV and other Western translations are about as far from being good as they can be. Should be used to paper a parakeet's cage instead of teaching false doctrine.

Now let's get down to the real question: every action taken by a person is ordered to a goal. There is an end in sight, a goal to be achieved. Answer me this: what was the goal of creating man? To damn the majority of them or to glorify them?

 

[Light of the East]

What is the problem with the hellists? Tell me, you hellists and annihilationists who are here, why does it so bother you to think that God is so wise, so powerful, and so loving that He can find a way to bring even the most wicked of people to repentance and do it in a manner which satisifies justice?

I mean, you guys really get your knickers in a knot when it is suggested that God is just, that the punishment fits the offense (meaning that hell does not last forever) and that God loves His children and wills that all of them be home.

Why?

 

[Dkh587]

Right, the majority of professing believers in this case.

And the majority clearly believe in damnation or annihilation, limited atonement, salvation of the few etc.

Does this concern you personally, in light of Mt 7:14?

I mean, what if God's plan of salvation is much bigger than you'd thought, and you later discovered you'd short-changed Him? Much wailing and gnashing, I daresay.

what’s concerning is that many people think they know Jesus and will get into the kingdom, yet he will tell them on judgement day, I never knew you.

Matthew 7:21-23 ESV

Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.

On that day many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?’

And then will I declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.’

 

[Dkh587]

And Jesus was a Damnationist and Paul was a Universalist. Take your pick.
Sometimes David was a Universalist (Psalm 118), as was Christ. (John 5:24-26)

Saint Steven said: ↑
Well... maybe we are in a similar boat here.
You don't believe in a forever burning hell. But isn't that what "Jesus, his prophets and apostles teach"? (in the Damnationist biased Bible they gave us)

If, as according to you, Jesus is a damnationist, and Paul is an universalist, who is correct?

 

[Navair2]

WHERE does it say anything about Jesus' wrath and vengeance when He returns to finalize the Kingdom?

Revelation 19:11-21.

 

[Dkh587]

What is the problem with the hellists? Tell me, you hellists and annihilationists who are here, why does it so bother you to think that God is so wise, so powerful, and so loving that He can find a way to bring even the most wicked of people to repentance and do it in a manner which satisifies justice?

I mean, you guys really get your knickers in a knot when it is suggested that God is just, that the punishment fits the offense (meaning that hell does not last forever) and that God loves His children and wills that all of them be home.

Why?

You’re the only person acting bothered in here, as far as I can tell.

 

[Light of the East]

what’s concerning is that many people think they know Jesus and will get into the kingdom, yet he will tell them on judgement day, I never knew you.

Matthew 7:21-23 ESV

First of all, this is in the Gospel of Matthew, which is specifically the gospel to the Jews. The whole thrust of this story is that the Messiah came, shown by the lineage in Matthew 1, He offered Himself to them, and they rejected Him. The end speaks of God's rejection of them as a nation (Matthew 21: 33-46) and the destruction of Jerusalem. (Matthew 23-25).

The warnings therefore are specifically towards those Jews listening to Jesus at that time. Jesus is telling them that the Kingdom is coming, the age is coming to an end, and if they do not listen to Him, they will not see the coming of the new age and the New Covenant.

 

[Light of the East]

Revelation 19:11-21.

Destruction of Jerusalem. AD 70. Fulfillment of Matthew 21: 33-46 and Matthew 23-25. Has nothing to with some idea of "rapture of the Church" "finalizing the kingdom" etc?

 

[Light of the East]

You’re the only person acting bothered in here, as far as I can tell.

Nice dodge. Now would you mind telling me what you reject Apokatastasis?

 

[Navair2]

It's the ol' fine distinction expressed in the adage 'God loves the sinner and hates the sin'.

He doesn't just hate the sin...
He actually hates the sin and the sinner:

" For thou [art] not a God that hath pleasure in wickedness: neither shall evil dwell with thee.
5 The foolish shall not stand in thy sight: thou hatest all workers of iniquity.
6 Thou shalt destroy them that speak leasing: the Lord will abhor the bloody and deceitful man." ( Psalms 5:4-6 ).

He loves whom He loves, and hates whom He hates ( Romans 9:13-18 ).

 

[Navair2]

To answer the OP, God is indeed a God of wrath and of judgment, a God of love and of mercy and compassion...
But those all have a context.

Sometimes I marvel at threads like this, that discuss the Lord as being all love and not also perfectly willing to show wrath and to make His power known to all of His creatures.

In fact, it seems to me that there are many people in the world that have their own ideas about the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob;
Yet the Scriptures declare that He is not only a God of love ( 1 John 4:7-21 ), but a God of wrath and judgment ( Matthew 25:31-46, Romans 9:22 and many others ).

His love is reserved for those He has decided to have mercy and compassion on ( Exodus 33:19, Romans 9:14-18 ), while everlasting torment ( Revelation 20:10 ) and the mists of darkness ( 2 Peter 2:17, Jude 1:13 ) are reserved for those He does not have compassion on and who hate Him and refuse to repent of their sins.


All,
This is not a post condemning you for your opinions...
It is an appeal to you to search the Scriptures for the answers to your questions;

The Lord is not Someone to be trifled with, and Hell is a very real place with a very real purpose:
To serve as a place of imprisonment and weeping, a place of anguish and pain to those who trample on His commands and upon His grace...

For those of us who have believed on His Son, that penalty has been removed and we are going to see His justice meted out on our fellow man at the Judgment;
For those who have not believed on His Son, the wrath of God abides upon them ( John 3:36 ) and they will indeed receive the justice that the Lord Jesus redeemed us out of ( Romans 5:9 ).


My friends,
Be grateful for His unspeakable gift of eternal life through His Son...

It's not everyone that will be afforded such an unmerited gift.

 

[Saint Steven]

If, as according to you, Jesus is a damnationist, and Paul is an universalist, who is correct?

Not our biased and conflicted translation of the Bible evidently. The RCC cooked the book. We are fortunate that they overlooked a few verses that tell us the truth about Universal Salvation.

 

[Saint Steven]

You’re the only person acting bothered in here, as far as I can tell.

Seriously, you didn't BOTHER to put me on the "bothered" list? - LOL
If I wasn't a Universal Restorationist, I would say that was unforgivable. - ha, ha

 

[Saint Steven]

He doesn't just hate the sin...
He actually hates the sin and the sinner:

Who created sin?

 

[mlepfitjw]

Thank you all for your responses. May God bless you with his grace, and may the joy, peace, mercy, peace, love, kindness, gentleness, forgiveness even after we get angry, and the spirit that comes from God who raised the Lord Jesus Christ from the dead whos raised spirit is with us as believers.

 

[Clare73]

Who created sin?

Satan, when he rebelled against God in heaven. . .and was cast down to earth.

 

[St_Worm2]

It is clear to me that this is about the first advent. The coming of Christ after the forerunner. (John) The purification of the individuals is made clear in verse three. This is not about a final judgment or a destruction of the individuals. (which I don't buy either)

Malachi 3:1-5
“I will send my messenger, who will prepare the way before me. Then suddenly the Lord you are seeking will come to his temple; the messenger of the covenant, whom you desire, will come,” says the Lord Almighty.
2 But who can endure the day of his coming? Who can stand when he appears? For he will be like a refiner’s fire or a launderer’s soap. 3 He will sit as a refiner and purifier of silver; he will purify the Levites and refine them like gold and silver. Then the Lord will have men who will bring offerings in righteousness, 4 and the offerings of Judah and Jerusalem will be acceptable to the Lord, as in days gone by, as in former years.
5 “So I will come to put you on trial. I will be quick to testify against sorcerers, adulterers and perjurers, against those who defraud laborers of their wages, who oppress the widows and the fatherless, and deprive the foreigners among you of justice, but do not fear me,” says the Lord Almighty.

Hello again St. Steven, first off, HAPPY NEW YEAR

As for your post, I agree with you, that the passage from Mal 3 is (first and foremost) about the purification of individuals on this side of the grave, not about their eternal destruction (though the secondary meaning seems inescapable to me because of v2 .. then again, the presupposition that I hold to does not deny the existence of Hell/the Lake of Fire for individuals like yours does ).

That's why I also posited the passage from Matthew 13 in a couple of my posts as well, as that text talks plainly about the existence of "tares", and of the angelic "reapers" who will gather them together at the end of the age and throw them into a "furnace of fire" (which will be a place of "weeping and gnashing of teeth" for the tares who are sent there).

Finally (for what it's worth), looking back again at Mal 3, I believe that you left out one of the strongest arguments for that passage being about the purification & cleansing of individuals (instead of their destruction .. at least principally) .. v6.

Malachi 3
6 “For I, the LORD, do not change; therefore you, O sons of Jacob, are not consumed."
​

God bless you!

--David