Null/Voided Out

[Saint Steven]

why did Hosea say God’s people were destroyed? It was from a lack of what?

Hosea 4:6

Do you think that meant they went to hell?

 

[Dkh587]

As opposed to what? Temporary destruction? Destruction is destruction.

Destruction can be temporary or permanent. You can destroy something and build it again, or you can destroy something and never build it again.

 

[Dkh587]

Do you think that meant they went to hell?

It means that people are destroyed because of what they don’t know, which you argue against.

I don’t have a “going to heaven or hell” view.

I view things in terms of either entering into the kingdom of God & receiving eternal life, or not entering the kingdom of God and being destroyed forever.

 

[Saint Steven]

Destruction can be temporary or permanent. You can destroy something and build it again, or you can destroy something and never build it again.

True. I keep coming back to the idea that it is not us being destroyed, but aspects about us. Cleansing, purifying, refining. I can't imagine what heaven would be like, knowing that there were souls in the basement being tormented forever. Or that God in a fit of rage incinerated those who never knew him, or his law. Both of which he could have prevented.

Malachi 3:2
But who can endure the day of his coming? Who can stand when he appears?
For he will be like a refiner’s fire or a launderer’s soap.

 

[Saint Steven]

It means that people are destroyed because of what they don’t know, which you argue against.

Which I argue against?
I was questioning how you defined "destroyed" in Hosea 4:6.
It seems unlikely that Hosea was saying they were eternally destroyed due to a lack of knowledge.

Dkh587 said: ↑
why did Hosea say God’s people were destroyed? It was from a lack of what?

Hosea 4:6

 

[Shrewd Manager]

It's the ol' fine distinction expressed in the adage 'God loves the sinner and hates the sin'.

So God takes aim at this hideous sickness, this death-dealing leprosy that enslaves and blinds man, that threatens to mar His image and distort His creation.

No wonder, I get hopping mad when I see the devil holding the world to ransom in a death-grip of Babylonian sorceries. Or when I see millions of lab animals being tortured to death for no scientific benefit. Plenty of grist for that mill in today's world, the work is plentiful, days of Noah-stuff.

Yes, we're called to burn with passion to put right injustice and wrestle hard against those powers and principalities. Really, like we mean it. For His ministers are flames of fire.

In order to recover his stolen goods, Jesus home-invades the strongman's apartment and hogties him. Everything God does is with passion and commitment to a depth beyond our comprehension. For your God is a jealous God, Israel.

So don't think it's beyond the reach of the Great Physician to destroy the sin and deliver the new man in Christ for healing. Fire purifies, water heals.

That's our hope and our faith, gold refined in the fire.

 

[Saint Steven]

I don’t have a “going to heaven or hell” view.

I view things in terms of either entering into the kingdom of God & receiving eternal life, or not entering the kingdom of God and being destroyed forever.

Was Jesus a success, or a failure?
The Father sent his Son to be the Savior of the world.

1 John 4:14
And we have seen and testify that the Father has sent his Son to be the Savior of the world.

 

[Dkh587]

So God created mankind for the specific purpose of annihilating the most of them forever? You get to be alive, experience life, then get snuffed out?

Kinda makes the Cross an exercise in futility, wouldn't you say? Unless, of course, it was God's plan from the beginning to either exterminate 95% of the people who would ever live. Or torment them forever.

Which would make Him a sadist.

Christ plainly taught that the road to eternal life is narrow and only a few find it... it seems that you’re trying to build an idea of the God of Abraham based on what *you* feel he should or should not be like, rather than what his Jesus, his prophets and apostles teach that he is like.

 

[Shrewd Manager]

Universalism is bogus.

God can’t and won’t tolerate the evil or corrupt in His presence, which is why it says in Revelation that no one who is a liar or does what is wrong will be allowed into the city where God and men shall dwell forever in Revelation 21:27.

Is universalism bogus, or just your concept of it?

You see, universalism says that sin is destroyed in the presence of God. Who can stand? All things are subdued to Christ, so that God may be all in all (1 Cor 15:28). Rev 21 forecasts a giant baptism of fire in the mikveh outside the New Jerusalem.

In case you're wondering:
On the Mikveh Trail, follow the rugged path of Jerusalem’s ancient pilgrims

 

[Shrewd Manager]

Christ plainly taught that the road to eternal life is narrow and only a few find it.

So what does that say about those who walk the path of mainstream theology?

 

[Dkh587]

Was Jesus a success, or a failure?
The Father sent his Son to be the Savior of the world.

1 John 4:14
And we have seen and testify that the Father has sent his Son to be the Savior of the world.

Someone being a savior of a group of people doesn’t mean everybody in the group will be saved.

Isaiah 43:1-3 ESV

But now thus says Yahweh, he who created you, O Jacob, he who formed you, O Israel:

“Fear not, for I have redeemed you; I have called you by name, you are mine. When you pass through the waters, I will be with you; and through the rivers, they shall not overwhelm you; when you walk through fire you shall not be burned, and the flame shall not consume you. For I am Yahweh your God, the Holy One of Israel, your Savior.”

yet the same God, the savior of Israel, declares that only a remnant of the group of people he is a savior of, will return.

Isaiah 10:22 ESV

For though your people Israel be as the sand of the sea, only a remnant of them will return.

Many are called, but few are chosen.

Jesus is a success, btw.

 

[Saint Steven]

Christ plainly taught that the road to eternal life is narrow and only a few find it... it seems that you’re trying to build an idea of the God of Abraham based on what *you* feel he should or should not be like, rather than what his Jesus, his prophets and apostles teach that he is like.

Well... maybe we are in a similar boat here.
You don't believe in a forever burning hell. But isn't that what "Jesus, his prophets and apostles teach"? (in the Damnationist biased Bible they gave us)

 

[Dkh587]

So what does that say about those who walk the path of mainstream theology?

It says they should seriously consider what they believe, and test it against the scripture to see if it holds up.

Luke 13:24 ESV

Strive to enter through the narrow door.

For many, I tell you, will seek to enter and will not be able.

 

[Saint Steven]

Jesus is a success, btw.

Not in your world.
A world where at best maybe 1 in million are saved.
Sounds like a complete failure to me.

 

[Saint Steven]

It says they should seriously consider what they believe, and test it against the scripture to see if it holds up.

Luke 13:24 ESV

I think this is where "each in turn" comes into play.
Those who enter through the narrow gate are only the firstfruits.
Verse 22 says ALL will be made alive. The same ALL that died in Adam.

1 Corinthians 15:22-24
For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive. 23 But each in turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him. 24 Then the end will come, when he hands over the kingdom to God the Father after he has destroyed all dominion, authority and power.

 

[Shrewd Manager]

It says they should seriously consider what they believe, and test it against the scripture to see if it holds up.

Luke 13:24 ESV

Even more basically, doesn't it say the majority is wrong?

 

[Dkh587]

Well... maybe we are in a similar boat here.
You don't believe in a forever burning hell. But isn't that what "Jesus, his prophets and apostles teach"? (in the Damnationist biased Bible they gave us)

No, that’s not what they taught. David, for example, was an annihilationist - Psalm 37

 

[Dkh587]

Even more basically, doesn't it say the majority is wrong?

Christ sure did teach that the majority is wrong.

 

[Shrewd Manager]

Christ sure did teach that the majority is wrong.

Right, the majority of professing believers in this case.

And the majority clearly believe in damnation or annihilation, limited atonement, salvation of the few etc.

Does this concern you personally, in light of Mt 7:14?

I mean, what if God's plan of salvation is much bigger than you'd thought, and you later discovered you'd short-changed Him? Much wailing and gnashing, I daresay.

 

[Saint Steven]

No, that’s not what they taught. David, for example, was an annihilationist - Psalm 37

And Jesus was a Damnationist and Paul was a Universalist. Take your pick.
Sometimes David was a Universalist (Psalm 118), as was Christ. (John 5:24-26)

Saint Steven said: ↑
Well... maybe we are in a similar boat here.
You don't believe in a forever burning hell. But isn't that what "Jesus, his prophets and apostles teach"? (in the Damnationist biased Bible they gave us)