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[disciple Clint]

They're saying that those who haven't heard are justly condemned. A lot of the issue boils down to whether we recognize that God is just, or if we try to force our own definitions of justice from our limited understanding. If God is just, and those who never hear are truly condemned, their condemnation is just because God would not unjustly condemn. Their hearing the gospel or not is not something that is outside of God's control, and the knowledge that they are given of God is sufficiently understood that they may be condemned. If God saves more than those He explicitly states He is saving, He remains just(think Romans 9) so the argument over whether they must recognize fully His existence as a human and such wouldn't exclude them. We simply cannot teach that because God in no way indicates that acceptance of the gospel is optional or that salvation occurs in any other way, and we must preach the gospel as if them not hearing it is the same as being condemned.

“Those also can attain to everlasting salvation who through no fault of their own do not know the gospel of Christ or his Church, yet sincerely seek God and, moved by grace, strive by their deeds to do his will as it is known to them through the dictates of conscience. Nor does divine Providence deny the help necessary for salvation to those who, without blame on their part, have not yet arrived at an explicit knowledge of God, but who strive to live a good life, thanks to his grace” (Lumen Gentium, no. 16). Who Can Be Saved?

 

[disciple Clint]

Actually, that article refutes what you believe concerning this subject.

Yes I see that and I provided a different source.

 

[Sovereign Grace]

And God understands that they were not given access to that information and He is not going to condemn them for something that they had no control over. God is just.

Wrong. God being just is not Him being fair. God is just in punishing them. Ppl are condemned already in Adam[John 3:18].

 

[Sovereign Grace]

So Abraham was righteous and knew nothing of Jesus. Salvation is through Faith, Abraham had faith in the future Messiah but he certainly did not know Him, did he?

YHWH is Jesus.

 

[Dave L]

If you are submitting that to rebut a Bible Commentary that has been reviewed my countless scholars and found accurate, it would not be accepted. And again the subject is salvation through faith, the Gospel that it makes reference to is not the full Gospel story as we know it, if it had been the the Jews would have had no trouble recognizing Jesus for who He was but that is not the case is it. Their expectation of a Messiah was very different from what they saw in Jesus.

If you cannot see the gospel in the OT, you need more study. But remember, God, blinded many Jews so they could not see it.

 

[Dave L]

We covered that read the commentary I provide for you and you will see that the Gospel was not preached to Abraham

“And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed.” Galatians 3:8 (KJV 1900)

 

[Dave L]

Are Israel and the church the same thing? Does God still have a plan for Israel? | GotQuestions.org

These are Dispensationalists. They didn't exist until the 1800s and are at odds with the entire historic Church.

 

[Dave L]

Funny. I always thought this way of Calvinism. It simply does not seem fair that God would choose some to be saved and others to not be saved based on no real rhyme or reason. To me: It seems unjust. But some Calvinists have told me that I am thinking with my feelings. But they fail to understand that God has emotions and He is a just, and good God.

Think of it this way. If God wants to make his mercy known, he arbitrarily chooses some and suffers in their place on the cross. If he wants to make his goodness and wrath known, he leaves the rest to their sin and measured punishment.

 

[Gregory Thompson]

Was the faith of the saints expressed throughout the whole world?


“First, I thank my God through Jesus Christ for you all, that your faith is spoken of throughout the whole world.

For God is my witness, whom I serve with my spirit in the gospel of his Son, that without ceasing I make mention of you always in my prayers;”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭1:8-9

My wondering is if this is true.

Hebrews 8:11 And they will not need to teach their neighbors, nor will they need to teach their relatives, saying, ‘You should know the LORD.’ For everyone, from the least to the greatest, will know me already.

Does everyone already know the Lord, at least even just a little bit, heard of the LORD through the ‘grapevine’?

The whole Roman world.

 

[Fervent]

“Those also can attain to everlasting salvation who through no fault of their own do not know the gospel of Christ or his Church, yet sincerely seek God and, moved by grace, strive by their deeds to do his will as it is known to them through the dictates of conscience. Nor does divine Providence deny the help necessary for salvation to those who, without blame on their part, have not yet arrived at an explicit knowledge of God, but who strive to live a good life, thanks to his grace” (Lumen Gentium, no. 16). Who Can Be Saved?

Catholics tend to base more of the theology on philosophy than Biblical exegesis. There are ways to philosophize a pathway but the Bible doesn't support salvation apart from the gospel, and what we teach must come from it rather than our own thoughts. That God may save people beyond what is written in it, that is His domain but if we teach such we risk giving the wrong impression and treating the gospel as unnecessary. Which can be seen in the Catholic position on evangelism.

 

[AbbaLove]

The full gospel. God preached the gospel to Abraham... remember?

There's no indication in the Bible that we should believe Abraham had the Gift of speaking in an unknown language or an unknown private prayer/praise tongue (supernatural gift) such as first occurred in the NT.

Actually the expression "full gospel" didn't come into it's own until the beginning of the 20th century with Pentecostalism and then Charismatic Christianity (aka the Holiness Movement). More recently the advent of "full gospel" Baptist and Catholic assemblies having members that believe speaking in an unknown tongue is still active today as it was in the 1st Century AD/CE.

Romans 1:16-17
16 For I am not ashamed of the Good News, since it is God’s powerful means of bringing salvation to everyone who keeps on trusting, to the Jew especially, but equally to the Gentile.
17 For in it is revealed how God makes people righteous in His sight; and from beginning to end it is through trust — as the Tanakh puts it, “But the person who is righteous will live his life by trust.” (Habakkuk 2:4; Proverbs 3:5-6)

 

[John Helpher]

Was the faith of the saints expressed throughout the whole world?


“First, I thank my God through Jesus Christ for you all, that your faith is spoken of throughout the whole world.

I think there are two interpretations, here, both of which apply. One, is that the "whole world" was much smaller back then than it is for us now, meaning, much less of it was explored and known. The whole world, back then, would have been mostly just the middle east, Europe, and some parts of Asia, all of which experienced missionaries of Christ.

The other is that it is an idiomatic expression, like when we say we ate all kinds of food at the buffet, we do not literally mean every kind of food in existence. I believe the author is trying to express his joy, and some encouragement, that the message is getting out to a wide audience, that their efforts are not in vain and they really are making a difference.

 

[Dave L]

​

There's no indication in the Bible that we should believe Abraham had the Gift of speaking in an unknown language or an unknown private prayer/praise tongue (supernatural gift) such as first occurred in the NT.

Actually the expression "full gospel" didn't come into it's own until the beginning of the 20th century with Pentecostalism and then Charismatic Christianity (aka the Holiness Movement). More recently the advent of "full gospel" Baptist and Catholic assemblies having members that believe speaking in an unknown tongue is still active today as it was in the 1st Century AD/CE.

Romans 1:16-17
16 For I am not ashamed of the Good News, since it is God’s powerful means of bringing salvation to everyone who keeps on trusting, to the Jew especially, but equally to the Gentile.
17 For in it is revealed how God makes people righteous in His sight; and from beginning to end it is through trust — as the Tanakh puts it, “But the person who is righteous will live his life by trust.” (Habakkuk 2:4; Proverbs 3:5-6)

This conversation is about the gospel in the OT.

 

[Stone-n-Steel]

We covered that read the commentary I provide for you and you will see that the Gospel was not preached to Abraham

Ryrie is dispensational so your reply is good. Many controversies in scripture are resolved if taken in the proper context.

 

[Sovereign Grace]

And God understands that they were not given access to that information and He is not going to condemn them for something that they had no control over. God is just.

So, ppl are going to be saved w/o ever hearing the gospel? So, God moves the goalposts for those who never heard the gospel and saves them outside the gospel proclamation?

 

[disciple Clint]

Catholics tend to base more of the theology on philosophy than Biblical exegesis. There are ways to philosophize a pathway but the Bible doesn't support salvation apart from the gospel, and what we teach must come from it rather than our own thoughts. That God may save people beyond what is written in it, that is His domain but if we teach such we risk giving the wrong impression and treating the gospel as unnecessary. Which can be seen in the Catholic position on evangelism.

Point in fact we have no idea who God will save and who He will not save. It is not that I disagree with your post but my concept of God does not include having Him send people for an eternity in hell just because they have not had the opportunity to hear the Gospel.

 

[disciple Clint]

So, ppl are going to be saved w/o ever hearing the gospel? So, God moves the goalposts for those who never heard the gospel and saves them outside the gospel proclamation?

Well you are free to believe that the alternative if you wish but understand that what you are saying if you do that. You are saying that you believe in a God who sends people to hell for eternity simply because they never had access to the Gospel. My God is not like that, nothing in the Gospel indicates that He is anything like that, show me where He judges people unfairly, or withholds forgiveness or fails to love anyone or holds anyone responsible for things they had no control over, quite the contrary He forgives the guilty let alone the innocent. The purpose of the Bible is to reveal God, if we miss knowing God the rest of Scripture is useless.

 

[Sovereign Grace]

Well you are free to believe that the alternative if you wish but understand that what you are saying if you do that. You are saying that you believe in a God who sends people to hell for eternity simply because they never had access to the Gospel. My God is not like that, nothing in the Gospel indicates that He is anything like that, show me where He judges people unfairly, or withholds forgiveness or fails to love anyone or holds anyone responsible for things they had no control over, quite the contrary He forgives the guilty let alone the innocent. The purpose of the Bible is to reveal God, if we miss knowing God the rest of Scripture is useless.

He sends ppl to hell because they do not repent[Luke 13:3 & 13:5]. This my God vs your God is very childish. You’d best to grow up.

When Adam sinned, the whole human race was in Adam, as he was their representative, including you and I. The only reason why any are saved is because He chose them from before the creation of the world, per Ephesians 1. And He uses means to accomplish this, the means is the gospel.

You want to distance yourself so badly from Calvinism, you have jumped into the same bed as Hyper-Calvinists, as they believe God will save many who never heard the gospel. I am a Calvinist(which is biblical) you are a Hyper-Calvinist(which is heresy).

 

[disciple Clint]

He sends ppl to hell because they do not repent[Luke 13:3 & 13:5]. This my God vs your God is very childish. You’d best to grow up.

When Adam sinned, the whole human race was in Adam, as he was their representative, including you and I. The only reason why any are saved is because He chose them from before the creation of the world, per Ephesians 1. And He uses means to accomplish this, the means is the gospel.

You want to distance yourself so badly from Calvinism, you have jumped into the same bed as Hyper-Calvinists, as they believe God will save many who never heard the gospel. I am a Calvinist(which is biblical) you are a Hyper-Calvinist(which is heresy).

You are one who feels it is your place to judge others, how sad.

 

[Sovereign Grace]

You are one who feels it is your place to judge others, how sad.

I’ve judged no man. I don’t know your standing before God. But I see someone who is saying God saves some through the gospel proclamation and others through whatever means have been made available to them. That’s an unbiblical stance you’ve taken.

Hyper-Calvinists, AKA Hardshells/Primitive Baptists believe many will be in heaven who never heard the gospel. In your post, you stated the same thing.