Post-Trib Only Nuclear Apocalypse ?!

[stephen583]

Firstly, you mix up the 'wars'.

I don't think so keras. My Bible just reads differently than yours. The last time I read it, the Day of the Lord's Wrath includes the land of Israel and it's people. That's when two thirds of Israel is going to be "cut off" and die. Like I said, that's going to be an awful lot of dead people and devastation in a country a little bigger than the state of New Jersey.

In addition to 4 million dead Jews, you can add to that number all the enemy slain from the G/M war and of course the slain from the battle in the plain of Megiddo (the Armageddon battle). Like I said, I have no desire to travel to the Holy Land and see that kind of carnage up close. I think we'll probably have plenty enough dead to bury here in America, without travelling abroad to do it.

 

[keras]

I don't think so keras. My Bible just reads differently than yours. The last time I read it, the Day of the Lord's Wrath includes the land of Israel and it's people. That's when two thirds of Israel is going to be "cut off" and die. Like I said, that's going to be an awful lot of dead people and devastation in a country a little bigger than the state of New Jersey.

I have always said this forthcoming destruction DID include Judah.
We agree completely, confirmed by the Bible:
Isaiah 4:3-6 Then those who are left in Zion.....when the Lord washes away the filth of Jerusalem.... by a judgment of burning.....then His glory will be a cover for all.
Isaiah 6:11-13 How long, Lord? Until cities are deserted and the Land desolated....only a holy seed will remain.
Isaiah 29:1-4 Woe to you, Ariel, [Jerusalem] I will make you My fire altar.....You will be brought low, you voices will squeak from underground..... The survivors, all Messianic Jews, will be kept safe in u/g bunkers.
Ezekiel 20:46-48 ....I am about to kindle a fire in you, it will consume all the wood, green and dry alike. [Luke 23:29-31] All will see that I the Lord has kindled it [NOT a mans nuke war] and it shall not be quenched.
Jeremiah 4:3-31 Declare this in Jerusalem....the destroyer of nations has risen from place, to make the Land desolate, bereft of inhabitants.... I looked and the whole earth was in chaos, in darkness and the mountains were shaking and reeling, the towns flattened, before the Lord, at His fierce anger.....He has made known His plans, He will not relent or change them.
There are many other verses about this judgement, that will affect the whole world and cause cosmic effects not possible from nukes, but particularly all of the Middle East region. Ezekiel 30:1-5, Zephaniah 2:1-7
Look at Matthew 21:41-43. Who are the people who 'bear fruit'? Christians, of course, it will be people from every tribe [of Israel] other nation, race and language that will re-inhabit the Holy Land. Revelation 5:9-10

 

[stephen583]

it will be people from every tribe [of Israel] other nation, race and language that will re-inhabit the Holy Land. Revelation 5:9-10

Not me. Like I said, even setting aside the coming Apocalypse here in America, I've seen enough death and destruction to last me a lifetime already.

 

[keras]

Not me. Like I said, even setting aside the coming Apocalypse here in America, I've seen enough death and destruction to last me a lifetime already.

You will have a choice: go to the new nation of Beulah and be blessed by God, Isaiah 65:24-25, Ezekiel 36:8-12, or stay away and either starve to death, be killed for your faith, or take the mark of the Anti-Christ and face eternal death.
What we will see in the holy Land is just the ashes of the enemies. Malachi 4:3, Isaiah 33:12, 2 Peter 2:6

 

[stephen583]

"North Korean leader Kim Jung un, orders North's ballistic missile forces readied" (Assoc. Press, March 3, 2016)

 

[keras]

The Wrath of God will come from the sky:
Romans 1:18-20 Divine Retribution will be seen by all, falling from heaven on all the impiety and wickedness of men and women who deny the truth. 1 Samuel 2:10
For all that can be known about God lies plain before their eyes. His invisible power and divine nature are knowable to any reasonable mind, so all are without excuse and their conduct is indefensible. Hebrews 11:6

Romans 1:21-32 These ungodly people know that there must be a Creator, but they refuse to acknowledge or give thanks to Him. So now, their thinking has become futile and their misguided minds are plunged into darkness. They claim to be wise, but they have just made fools of themselves. Psalms 14:1-3
Therefore God has given them over to all kinds of perversions and idolatries, while actually knowing God’s righteous decree that those who behave like this deserve to die, but they continue in their depravity and approve of the same conduct in others. Job 22:12-13

Romans 2:5-11 God’s kindness and patience is allowing us time to come to repentance, but if people refuse His gift of salvation, then on the Day of Retribution, all will be justly judged according to their deeds. His wrath awaits those who are governed by selfish ambition, who refuse obedience to the truth and who take evil for their guide. Isaiah 2:12, Isaiah 29:19-21, Isaiah 65:11-12
To both the Israelites and Gentiles who pursue glory, honour and immortality by living a righteous life, God will reward them with eternal life. Hosea 2:19 God has no favourites.

2 Thessalonians 1:6-10 It is just that God should pay back those godless peoples and give the righteous relief. This will happen when [the power of] the Lord Jesus is seen in the sky in a blazing fire, punishment will fall upon all who do not obey the gospel and they will suffer the penalty of eternal destruction, separated from His presence. Isaiah 59:18 On that great Day, Jesus will come and reveal His glory amongst all believers in Him. [Only revealed to His believers. Jeremiah 31:2-3]

Hebrews 10:26-27 For those who deliberately persist in sin while knowing the truth, there remains only the terrifying expectation of God’s judgement, of a fierce fire that will consume His enemies. Habakkuk 3:12, Malachi 4:1

2 Peter 3:7 & 10 On that Day, the Lord will come as a thief, the sky will disappear with a great roar and the earth will be devastated by fire. Zephaniah 3:8, Isaiah 34:2-4, Isaiah 66:15-17, Revelation 6:14, Jeremiah 30:23-24 Reference: REB. Some verses abridged and paraphrased.


None of these Bible quotes fit with or refer to the Return of Jesus in His glory, seen by all mankind, at the commencement of His Millennium reign, or with the Great White Throne judgement of every individual. It is an event before those, where the Lord makes ‘fire fall from heaven’, His great Day of Retribution against His enemies’. It is the Lord’s Day of vengeance and wrath, the next prophesied event that we can expect. It is a terrible punishment by fire, that will punish the ungodly, a massive explosion of the sun that will first devastate the Middle East, but will dramatically affect the whole world. Psalms 83, Micah 4:1

 

[stephen583]

For all that can be known about God lies plain before their eyes. His invisible power and divine nature are knowable to any reasonable mind,

Romans 1:20 states exactly the same thing, using similar wording; "For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly SEEN, being understood through WHAT HAS BEEN MADE, so they are without excuse".

Interestingly enough, one of the principles of the "scientific method" is based on the collection of data through "observing" the natural world, (Merriam-Webster Dictionary). In other words, in order for any hypothesis to be valid, it should also be "observable". This is what Sir Isaac Newton was doing when he dropped an apple and having observed it fall to the ground, went on to propose the theory of "gravity" to explain its' motion. Gravity is of course itself, an unseen (invisible) force, but we can observe its' effects on all matter.

Bandura's theory of "observational and cognitive" learning relative to early child development, and later social skills developed by adult humans, bears out the same conclusion. Humans use "observation" to understand the world and function in it.

Personally, I was never surprised to learn science and the Bible both agree the only way to "understand" anything about the world, or the Word of God, is by "observing" what actually exists. That's essentially what Hebrews 11:6 and Romans 1:20 are saying. "Use the observable world to understand the invisible nature of God". So science and biblical fact must be "reconcilable" in order for either to be true. There simply is no other possible rational conclusion.

For instance, archeological evidence shows the development of early agriculture and the raising of animals as livestock occurred "separately" in different parts of the world. According to the University of Jerusalem, the earliest evidence of tilling the ground and processing grain is found around the shores of the Sea of Galilee in the Middle East. While the earliest evidence of animals (sheep and cattle) being raised as livestock appears in Central Asia. Naturally, you'd tend to think both of these developments would have arisen simultaneously together in the same place and by same culture, that is, until you read the story of Cain and Able in the Bible.

Cain was a "tiller of the ground", while Able was a "keeper of the flocks", (Genesis 4:2). When Cain slew Able, Cain was not only banished to "wander in the Land of Nod", but he was also "cursed", so that the "earth should no longer yield any produce for him" should he attempt to farm it, (Genesis 4:12).

Therein lies the biblical explanation as to why agriculture and the raising of animals as livestock developed separately and in different geographic locations. A seeming mystery, science has yet to explain.

 

[stephen583]

"North Korea threatens preemptive nuclear strike against South Korea and U.S." (Assoc. Press March 6, 2016).

 

[keras]

My point in #107, was that a nuke, or even many nukes, cannnot fulfil all the prophesied effects of what will happen.
None of the prophesies describing the terrible Day of the Lord's vengeance and wrath really fit a nuke war and some specifically say how the Lord will send fire, from the sky, from the sun; a mighty source of super hot plasma, something we know the sun can explode out.
Why not believe what will happen and be prepared for it? Only the Middle east will receive the direct hit, we in America and NZ just need a safe place to take cover from the heat, storms and earthquakes. Also keep well away from the ocean or any large lakes, as the shaking of the earth will cause giant tsunamis.

 

[stephen583]

My point in #107, was that a nuke, or even many nukes, cannnot fulfil all the prophesied effects of what will happen.
None of the prophesies describing the terrible Day of the Lord's vengeance and wrath really fit a nuke war and some specifically say how the Lord will send fire, from the sky, from the sun; a mighty source of super hot plasma, something we know the sun can explode out.

You know Keras, this isn't exactly "fringe" eschatology we're talking about here. There are many mainstream Christian theologians and eschatologists who believe certain End Time Bible prophecies describe the effects of nuclear war and nuclear weapons. Books like "Nuclear Armageddon" weren't written and published as free on-line Amazon down loads, or by some vanity press publication. This book was released back in the 1970's, when books actually had to be credible and sell, in order to be distributed by major publishers.

I've stated several times in this thread, I agree with you certain End Time events are attributed to environmental events on Earth and also refer to a Solar event (CME) as well. Yet you don't seem to be able to relent from asserting these will be the only catastrophic events which cause destruction during the Great Tribulation Period. Whereas, I see a Third World War without nukes, as being completely unrealistic and implausible. I've posted specific Scripture which supports my view, about cities being left unapproachable, even uninhabitable for decades and in some cases permanently due to their destruction. Sounds like radiation and nuclear weapons. It doesn't sound like any destruction caused by a Solar Flare to me.

I don't know what else to say, except we're just going to have to agree to disagree on this subject.

 

[stephen583]

Here we are. It's Monday March 7, 2016 and the leader of North Korea "Kim Jung un" has threatened to launch a preemptive nuclear strike against South Korea and the U.S. today. I'm certain NORAD is once again at DEFCON 2, and American nuclear forces are headed for their Fail Safe points awaiting attack orders, or waiting to be recalled.

Just another normal sunny day in the New Cold War era and the Tribulation Period, waiting for the nuclear holocaust to begin.

 

[Armoured]

Here we are. It's Monday March 7, 2016 and the leader of North Korea "Kim Jung un" has threatened to launch a preemptive nuclear strike against South Korea and the U.S. today. I'm certain NORAD is once again at DEFCON 2, and American nuclear forces are headed for their Fail Safe points awaiting attack orders, or waiting to be recalled.

Just another normal sunny day in the New Cold War era and the Tribulation Period, waiting for the nuclear holocaust to begin.

North Korea has an estimated 8 functional physics packages, and 0 suitable long range delivery systems. Now, sure they could do a lot of damage with 8 nukes to South Korea (assuming they can get them there in a functional condition), but "apocalypse"?

 

[keras]

Yes Stephen, I too thought the last days would begin with a nuke war. But the Prophetic Word says otherwise:
Ezekiel 7:14 They have blown the Trumpet and prepared for war, but no one goes to war, for My wrath is upon all of them.
I am not talking about the Great Tribulation, that happens during the last 3.5 years of this age. It is the Sixth Seal worldwide disaster that comes next, the Day of the Lord's vengeance and wrath upon the whole world.
We have had many nuke explosions since the two that ended the 2WW and quite a few were in my area, by the French at Mururoa Atoll. Even the big Hydrogen one at Bikini Atoll never affected us, or anyone outside a radius that is miniscule compared the entire earths surface. So a nuke exchange doesn't come even close to fulfilling what is prophesied to happen. Let alone the cosmic effects, impossible for an earth war to cause.
Note in Revelation 16:8-9 there will be another, smaller, CME and we have had many in the past, so for God to use one to fulfil His purposes is logical and a perfect thing to set the scene for a OWG.

Zephaniah 1:14-18The great Day of the Lord’s vengeance and wrath is near,1 very near and coming quickly. Listen for the sound of that Day!2 When it comes, even brave warriors will panic and be terrified.
That Day will be a Day of great fury, a Day of distress and torment, a Day of destruction and devastation, a Day of darkness and gloom, a Day of clouds and thick blackness, a Day of the shofar battle call against the fortifications and upon all military strength.3
Because the peoples have sinned against the Lord, He will bring a shocking disaster to all in the holy Land. Their blood will be poured out like dust and their entrails like dung. Their strength and riches will not save them on the Day of the Lord’s fiery wrath, the whole Land will be burnt and devastated. For He will make an end, a horrible end of all who live in the holy Land.4

Isaiah 13:9-13 Here comes the Day of the Lord’s wrath – a Day full of fury and the outpoured wrath of the Lord. The whole earth will be devastated and all the unrighteous people will be destroyed.5
On that Day, you will not have any light from the sun, the moon, or the stars.6 The sky will tremble and shudder, the earth will be shaken from its place.7
The Lord will punish the world for its evil and the wicked peoples for their iniquity. He will end the arrogance of the proud and humble the pride of the leaders.
On that Day, humans will become scarce, they will be as rare as fine gold after the Lord’s Day of blazing anger.8

Isaiah 24:1-13 Be warned, the Lord is about to strip the earth, ruin it and devastate it. All its inhabitants, without exception, will be severely affected.9For the Lord has spoken this Word: The whole world is defiled by its peoples, they have changed the Laws, ignored the statutes and broken the everlasting Covenant. Therefore, My curse will consume the earth and its inhabitants will suffer punishment. They are burned up and very few will be left.10There will no longer be revelry and partying, the sounds of music and song will cease.
The cities and towns will be in chaos,11 every house locked and the people gone. They will be deserted, with all the roads and bridges destroyed. It will be like that throughout the world, in all the nations, just like an olive tree; beaten and stripped after the harvest.

Isaiah 24:14-16 & 23The Lord’s people lift their voices, they shout for joy - His righteous people in the West, in the East and on the islands of the sea: all giving honour to the God of Israel. From the ends of the earth, we hear them singing: Glory to God, our Saviour and Redeemer.12 Ref: CJB, REB, NIV, KJV. Some verses abridged.

1/ The great Day of the Lord’s punishment of the nations, will be a coronal mass ejection sunstrike, Isaiah 30:26, triggered by an attack on Israel. Even though this was prophesied thousands of years ago, nothing like it that matches all those vivid descriptions has happened as yet. Only now, as the world is again in a similar state to that of Noah’s day, 2 Peter 3:6-7, will the Lord ‘bring out of His storehouse’ His terrible fire judgement to destroy His enemies. Deut. 2:22 & 34-35, Romans 1:18, Psalms 83, Isaiah 61:2b, Haggai 2:6, 1 Samuel 2:10, Jeremiah 4:7, Matthew 3:10-12, Joel 1:15-20

2/ The great sound will be heard around the world: Jeremiah 25:30-31, Jeremiah 51:54-55, Isaiah 29:6

3/ Military powers of all kinds will be destroyed, especially the nuclear weapons neutralized: Jer. 49:35, Jer. 50:22-27, Hosea 2:18, Amos 5:9, Micah 5:10-11, Isaiah 32:14, Hosea 8:14

4/ All of the Holy Land will be devastated and depopulated: Ezekiel 30:1-5, Isaiah 6:11-12, Jeremiah 12:12-14, Jeremiah 10:18, Ezekiel 21:1-7, Micah 1:6, Hosea 4:3, Jeremiah 4:26

5/ The whole world will be severely affected: Luke 21:35, 2 Peter 3:7, Malachi 4:1-3, Isaiah 47:10 & 14, Nahum 1:5, Jeremiah 25:32, Isaiah 66:15-16, Habakkuk 3:12, Revelation 6:12-17

6/ There will be no natural light, caused by electrically induced atmospheric changes. Isaiah 47:3, Amos 5:20, Joel 2:2, Jeremiah 4:23 ‘The sky rolled up like a scroll’. Isaiah 34:4, Rev. 6:14

7/ The earth will be pushed along its orbital track, bringing us back to a 360 day year. Haggai 2:21-22, Joel 2:10, Psalms 18:7

8/ Possibly up to 2/3 of the world’s population will die. All the evil peoples will be destroyed. This event is God’s second judgement on humankind, similar in scope to the Flood. Isaiah 26:21, Isaiah 51:6, Isaiah 30:30, Jer. 9:21-22, Ezekiel 21:12, Revelation 14:17-20

9/ Everybody now alive will experience this terrible time, it will fall upon all and ‘test the worth of each person’: 1 Cor. 3:13, Luke 21:35, John 17:15, Rev. 3:19, Psalms 118:17-18

10/ Most of the deaths will be in the Middle East area, Ezekiel 30:1-5, but around the world mass deaths will occur: Hebrews 10:27, Isaiah 33:12, Zeph. 2:12, Jeremiah 25:33, Psalms 35:12

11/ After this disaster, which will destroy all our modern infrastructure, the survivors will divide the world into 10 regions, each led by a President, in a One World Government federation. Daniel 11:21-24, Rev 17:12 2, Thessalonians 2:1-11 New Israel, then called Beulah, will not join this OWG. Isaiah 62:1-5

12/ All those people who are faithful to the Lord and obey His Laws are ‘accounted worthy,’ Colossians 1:10-12, 2 Peter 3:14, all deemed to be true Israelites, whether by actual descent or by grafting in. Ephesians 2:11-18 They will be protected and saved from this terrifying event, Joel 2:32, Isaiah 43:2b and the Lord has promised to provide ways of transportation for them. Psalms 68:17, Isaiah 66:20, Psalms 107:1-32. They will gather and settle into all of the holy Land. Isaiah 11:11-12, Ezekiel 34:11-31, Micah 12:12-13 The holy Land will be regenerated and will ‘bear fruit, for the homecoming of My people is near’. Ezekiel 36:8. Isaiah 35:1-2, Amos 9:13-15

Zechariah 8:4-8 The Lord says: I am about to rescue My people and bring them back to live in the holy Land. Once again old men and women will sit in the streets of Jerusalem and the place will be full of children at play. Even if this will seem impossible to those who remain in those days, will it be impossible for Me?
Revelation 7:9-10 I saw a vast throng, too many to count: from all races, every tribe, nation and language, standing before the throne of the Lamb. [On earth, in Jerusalem; Revelation 5:9-10] They were robed in white and had palm branches in their hands. They shouted: VICTORY TO OUR GOD AND TO THE LAMB WHO SITS ON THE THRONE.
Note that the Lord Jesus will be revealed to His people before His glorious Return. Isaiah 24:23, 2 Thessalonians 1:10, Revelation 14:1

 

[stephen583]

The French Magazine "OB" reveals a Russian ballistic submarine was detected in January 2016 in the Bay of Biscay off the coast of France by the French navy. The French foreign minister confirms the story today and adds the presence of Russian nuclear forces in European territory has increased dramatically in 2016 and the French navy continues to monitor the situation closely. (Associated Press Release, Thursday, March 10, 2016).

 

[stephen583]

The Pentagon announced today three (nuclear capable) B-2 Stealth Bombers have been forward deployed to the Asia/Pacific region in response to North Korean threats to carry out a preemptive nuclear strike, (Assoc. Press. March 10, 2016).

 

[stephen583]

Survivalism is for the secular people and all those preparations will not do them any good. Amos 9:1-4

You are aware the passage of Scripture you are quoting in Amos 9:1-4, where it says there will be no escape only refers specifically to the people of Israel and it's destruction, aren't you ??? I've checked several Bible Commentaries on the passage, and the consensus is, it is talking about the people of Israel. Not the world in general.

If you are correct, and there is no hope of physical survival, or escape, then "Why does the Apostle Paul refer to those who are alive and remain until the Coming of the Lord " ? (1 Thessalonians 4:15). What about the Gospel of Christ ?!

"Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to ESCAPE all these things that shall come to pass" (Luke 21:36).


So there's no point in trying to survive and there's no escape for anyone ??? I'm just not buying that. Again. We'll have to agree to disagree on that one.

 

[Matthew Twentyfour]

You are aware the passage of Scripture you are quoting in Amos 9:1-4, where it says there will be no escape only refers specifically to the people of Israel and it's destruction, aren't you ??? I've checked several Bible Commentaries on the passage, and the consensus is, it is talking about the people of Israel. Not the world in general.

You had already told us numerous time on the other thread another Jewish temple will never be built again. Based on your view, Amos 9 would be a prophecy already fulfilled since it involves the destruction of a temple.

Amos 9:1 NIRV I saw the Lord standing next to the altar in the temple. He said to me, "Strike the tops of the temple pillars. Then the heavy stones at the base of the entrance will shake. Bring everything down on the heads of everyone there. I will kill with my swords those who are left alive. Not one of them will escape. None will get away.

 

[stephen583]

Have your spiritual self ready, don't waste time and money on guns, food, and u/g shelters.

Actually, if you go back and read page one of this thread, I say the same thing, but for a practical reason. In Post #8 paragraph two on page one, I advise people against "forting up" and assuming a "bunker" mentality as a strategy in any survival situation. Stockpiling supplies in a "single" fortified location is a really bad idea. Remember what happened at Waco, Texas and Ruby Ridge ?! Instead, I suggest an "escape and evasion" strategy, or a "bug out" plan as a much more sensible alternative.

In Post #30 on page two, I caution against "Rambo" Christianity, militia groups and stockpiling military weapons and vast amounts of ammo. I quote Revelation 13:10, "he that killeth with the sword, must be killed with the sword". If you make yourself a military target, you will be targeted by the military. I also make the point in this thread, military style guns are very heavy, as well as the ammo they use, and I suggest a .22 pistol is probably a more practical choice for taking small game.

In order to possess a CAR-15, HK-91, AK-47 and a scoped 30.6 rifle with enough ammo to fight a battle, you are basically committing yourself to a "bunker" strategy. Which is only going to get you killed. Once you are surrounded, pinned down and can't replenish your water supplies, it's just a matter of time. Usually less than five to seven days before the siege ends.

The enemy also has the option of using smoke, fire, chemical agents, explosives or direct assault under heavy suppressive fire as a means to "end the siege". In any event, you'll be leaving the scene in a "body bag" wearing a toe tag, or the place will become your grave.

Escape and Evasion is the only strategy that makes any sense in any Apocalyptic scenario. It doesn't matter whether you are talking about a Nuclear War, Economic Collapse, Tsunami, Super Volcanoes and Earth Quakes, or Massive Solar Flare Events. Remaining in a major city, where resources and government assistance will be non-existent, is suicide. If FEMA and the U.S. govt. (with all their resources) couldn't deal with a Class 5 Hurricane hitting New Orleans, HOW ON EARTH are they going to deal with the Apocalypse ?! There is no government plan to save the general public.

If you love the comfort of your home and civilization so much, you can't walk away from it in order to save yourself, believe me, God isn't going to be sending any helicopters to save you.

 

[stephen583]

"The U.S. Naval Institute (USNI) News reports Saturday March 10, 2016 a North Korean submarine operating off the coast of North Korea is presumed sunk" (MSNBC NEWS).

 

[stephen583]

In case anyone is wondering, I have no hidden agenda. I'm not a minister. I'm not proselytizing. I'm not organizing a militia, recruiting soldiers, or hawking survival products for sale. What I believe, is, catastrophic Apocalyptic events are fast approaching. All the signs indicate as much. Things are rapidly deteriorating and escalating around the world, and very little time remains to make preparations and devise a "survival" plan for what is coming.

As a seasoned survivalist and outdoorsman, I can offer some sensible advise and some practical recommendations. That's all I'm in a position to do. That's why I opened this thread. To try and help as many people as possible "survive" the coming Apocalypse. If I didn't believe the Apocalypse was survivable, I wouldn't be wasting my time here.