Now its official: UN probe finds Israel commits crimes against humanity

[TheCatholic]

The UN is a farce
It should be dismantled

 

[ScottishJohn]

The UN is a farce
It should be dismantled

Same could be said of a lot of organisations. I believe in making things better rather than giving up and going home.

The UN could be a much greater force for good, however it will never be more than the sum of its parts, so it really depends on the US, the UK, France Russia and China stepping up to the plate and actually wanting to be a greater force for good, rather than a force for serving their own interests.

 

[TheCatholic]

.

 

[ScottishJohn]

Didn't Scottland just release a convicted terrorist to a hero's welcome in Libya?
You have no credibility with me.

I am not Scotland. Again if you have any interest in accuracy, then the scottish government - the SNP - released the terrorist. You'll note the lack of SNP icon beside my name.

But yeah - if the best you can come up with is an attack on my credibility by proxy, then carry on.

 

[Supreme]

Didn't Scottland just release a convicted terrorist to a hero's welcome in Libya?
You have no credibility with me.

Even though I personally think the SNP are bunch of uneducated mugs with no clear future for Scotland other than the same old 'independence' garbage, the decision was unique in the fact that for once, politicians in Britain didn't do what their colleagues across the pond wanted them to.

 

[Maverick3000]

Fair enough. But let's face it: Islam is the Muslim world's worst enemy. You can't scorn science and education, treat women like dirt, declare holy wars at the drop of a hat--and expect to build a modern civilization.

I'll concede the Palestinians have suffered at the hands of Israel, but it is Islam, not Israel, that has done the most to retard Palestinian social, economic and technological progress.

I would like to see the Palestinians renounce Islam, /quote]

I love how you scorn Islam for being "anti-education" but yourself refuse to educate yourself on the topic at hand before you make such incorrect statements like this.

Islam has LITTLE to do with the Palestinian conflict. The conflict itself is mostly secular; the majority of Palestinian militant groups are left wing nationalists and not Islamic. Some of the most notorious and violent leaders in the Palestinian resistance have actually been Christian. Heck, Christian/Muslim relations in Palestine have generally been pretty good according to most reports (including those by the US Government).

 

[Mahammad]

Throwing some people at someone else’s land is not a good idea; Imagine If I throw 10 million Jew with guns in your state, I bet you'd welcome them with open arms.

If the Indians are still alive they would be still fighting for there lands.

 

[Supreme]

Fair enough. But let's face it: Islam is the Muslim world's worst enemy. You can't scorn science and education, treat women like dirt, declare holy wars at the drop of a hat--and expect to build a modern civilization.

I'll concede the Palestinians have suffered at the hands of Israel, but it is Islam, not Israel, that has done the most to retard Palestinian social, economic and technological progress.

I would like to see the Palestinians renounce Islam, /quote]

I love how you scorn Islam for being "anti-education" but yourself refuse to educate yourself on the topic at hand before you make such incorrect statements like this.

Islam has LITTLE to do with the Palestinian conflict. The conflict itself is mostly secular; the majority of Palestinian militant groups are left wing nationalists and not Islamic. Some of the most notorious and violent leaders in the Palestinian resistance have actually been Christian. Heck, Christian/Muslim relations in Palestine have generally been pretty good according to most reports (including those by the US Government).

Exactly. Even though some organizations such as Hamas do have an Islamic agenda, other such as Fatah are based purely around Palestinian nationalism, with little in the way of religion. 90% of Palestinians are Muslim, yet you have to remember, 10% are Christian. This is not a battle of religion, but one of ethnicity- Jews vs Arabs, not Jews vs Muslims.

 

[TheNewWorldMan]

Didn't Scottland just release a convicted terrorist to a hero's welcome in Libya?
You have no credibility with me.

Yes, and of course every single Scotsman, to a man, was on board for that decision. No true Scotsman would have disagreed...

 

[mindlight]

Punish, humiliate and terrorize the civilian population: this is Israel

Have you ever been to Israel? Do you know many Jews or Palestinians for that matter. Reason I ask is that the ignorance in this statement is hard to fathom otherwise. You're discussing the symptoms and not the real issues at hand.

There is much wrong with the state of Israel and I am not going to excuse abuse of superior fire power or ill-disciplined usage of it, even if I think that the UN itself has no credibility in this matter whatsoever. But fact is many Jews live a continual state of fear surrounded by the barbed wire fences and high walls they naively hope will keep the rockets out. They know people who have been killed by the indiscriminate blind firing of rockets into Jewish inhabited areas. There is no concern for the innocent in such attacks by Hamas et al. It's not even a particularly Muslim thing to do and yet there are Immans egging these murderers on.

Israel responds disproportionately to such attacks and adds to the downward spiral of hatred in doing so. Both sides are motivated by a strong sense of injustice but both are blind to the reasons for their hostility for the other and the darkness that clouds both sides judgment.

Bottom line is Israel has a right to exist and a credible claim to its land. Even if you do not accept the religious angle on that claim there is an historic presence argument, victory in battles fought in self defence argument and weight of native numbers born there to consider. Or are you suggesting that all these native Israelites be simply thrown into the sea?

Bottom line is that the Palestinians believe that they also have a claim to a land, they were never much good at looking after, but have been in for a very long time, though not as long as the Jews. The number of Christian Palestinians has declined massively since 1948 by emigration and the majority of Palestinians today look upon Israel through Islamic eyes. Even Christian Palestinians are swept along by the violence of the current herd mind to throw stones at the soldiers. The Muslim view that underlies the ideology of Hamas cannot tolerate a Christian or Jewish mastery of Islams third most Holy site and literally wants to drive the Jews and their "crusader" supporters into the sea. They are intolerant of Israels right even to exist so on what grounds can Jews talk to such people. Their tactics discredit their cause and their allies in Iran and elsewhere even more so.

Various solutions have been suggested to this problem. The Palestinians best chance for peace in our time was the two state solution from which Arafat walked away from the table. The second initfadah followed and all hopes of peace now seem lost.

I do not think you can say the words you opened this OP with without understanding the deep despair that many well intentioned Jews who desperately wanted peace for the land of their children have with the UN and the route of negotiation. The Palestinians are the ones who scuppered these hopes and that they now suffer more in the world they helped to create is therefore small wonder and the kind of justice noone should wish on any other human being.

 

[nolongerhome]

And why can't a state be called terrorist ? your logic is flawed. An even handed approach by the USA requires a U-Turn in foreign policy and accepting Israel as what it is : a criminal apartheid regime.

You are displaying a remarkable lack of comprehension.

I told you why people don't label Israel's action as "terrorist" - terrorism is used to describe the actions of non-state actors. That isn't "my logic" - that is how terrorism is defined. I also told you that there is moral equivalency in the acts on both sides, I have not condoned any violent actions by either side in this dispute - Isreal killing civilians and Palestinians killing civilians are both unacceptable acts.

If you don't accept that both the Israelis and the Palestinians have done wrong and that they both have legitimate claims, then you are not helping the peace process. You are taking sides just as much as anyone that believes the Palestinians are all terrorists and Israel should wipe them out, and like someone that believes that you are not someone who has any interest in peace.

It really is that simple - if you take a side, you aren't interested in real peace - you are interested in the domination of one side over the other.

I agree that policy in the region needs to change - however, it needs to change in such a way that reflects the fact that taking sides won't bring peace. Israel has been the favoured party from most western countries throughout the conflict. The correct response is to favour neither Israel nor Palestine over the other, not to shift support wholely onto Palestine.

 

[TheCatholic]

And why can't a state be called terrorist ? your logic is flawed. An even handed approach by the USA requires a U-Turn in foreign policy and accepting Israel as what it is : a criminal apartheid regime.

What a disgusting thing to say

 

[ScottishJohn]

Y
I told you why people don't label Israel's action as "terrorist" - terrorism is used to describe the actions of non-state actors. That isn't "my logic" - that is how terrorism is defined.

I think it is the moronic 'war on terror' which has muddied this distinction, as the two main thrusts have focussed on states, which is one of the many reasons that it has been ineffective.

 

[Chipahualca]

You are displaying a remarkable lack of comprehension.

I told you why people don't label Israel's action as "terrorist" - terrorism is used to describe the actions of non-state actors. That isn't "my logic" - that is how terrorism is defined.

That's just not true. Terrorist is an adjective used for a certain type of military or paramilitary operation. It can be a private army, an islamic jihad or an american soldier.

I also told you that there is moral equivalency in the acts on both sides, I have not condoned any violent actions by either side in this dispute - Isreal killing civilians and Palestinians killing civilians are both unacceptable acts.

If you don't accept that both the Israelis and the Palestinians have done wrong and that they both have legitimate claims, then you are not helping the peace process. You are taking sides just as much as anyone that believes the Palestinians are all terrorists and Israel should wipe them out, and like someone that believes that you are not someone who has any interest in peace.

This argument is extremely fallacious. There is no "moral symmetry" whatsoever between israel's crimes and the palestinian resistance. There is no justification for genocide.

For you to understand, look at another example. During the Nazi cleansing of the Warsaw Ghetto, some jews had taken up arms, and even managed to kill some of the Nazi troops that where spreading havoc in their quarters. This jewish resistance to the Nazis was tagged as "terrorist" too. In the official nazi rhetoric, it was just another urgent reason why jews had to be disposed of quickly.

Why don't you argue "it's wrong to take sides" here too ?

 

[TheCatholic]

From the Washington Post
washingtonpost.com


At U.N., Iranian's Speech Draws Angry Words From Netanyahu


By Colum Lynch
Washington Post Staff Writer
Friday, September 25, 2009


UNITED NATIONS, Sept. 24 -- Brandishing Nazi orders for the extermination of Jews, Israel's prime minister blasted Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad on Thursday for continuing to deny that the Holocaust occurred, and he rebuked U.N. delegates who had listened politely to the Iranian leader's speech on Wednesday, demanding, "Have you no shame?"

"Here's a copy of the minutes of the meeting of senior Nazi officials instructing the Nazi government exactly how to carry out the extermination of the Jewish people," Binyamin Netanyahu said in a General Assembly speech that questioned the morality of engaging the Iranian leader. "Is this protocol a lie?"

Ahmadinejad accused Israel on Wednesday of manipulating the U.S. and European governments in the pursuit of "racist ambitions." The remark prompted walkouts by the United States and other European and Latin American delegations.

But the Iranian leader also signaled during an interview earlier in the day with The Washington Post and Newsweek that he is willing to step up nuclear cooperation, including allowing Iranian nuclear experts to meet with U.S. and other Western scientists.

Netanyahu appealed to the U.N. delegates to stand up to Iran, saying that its government could not be trusted and that its nuclear program posed the greatest threat to democratic governments.

"Will the international community stop the terrorist regime of Iran from developing atomic weapons?" he said. "Well, ladies and gentlemen, the jury is still out on the U.N., and recent signs are not encouraging."
- - - - - -
click here fore rest of story

 

[Supreme]

You are displaying a remarkable lack of comprehension.

I told you why people don't label Israel's action as "terrorist" - terrorism is used to describe the actions of non-state actors. That isn't "my logic" - that is how terrorism is defined. I also told you that there is moral equivalency in the acts on both sides, I have not condoned any violent actions by either side in this dispute - Isreal killing civilians and Palestinians killing civilians are both unacceptable acts.

If you don't accept that both the Israelis and the Palestinians have done wrong and that they both have legitimate claims, then you are not helping the peace process. You are taking sides just as much as anyone that believes the Palestinians are all terrorists and Israel should wipe them out, and like someone that believes that you are not someone who has any interest in peace.

It really is that simple - if you take a side, you aren't interested in real peace - you are interested in the domination of one side over the other.

I agree that policy in the region needs to change - however, it needs to change in such a way that reflects the fact that taking sides won't bring peace. Israel has been the favoured party from most western countries throughout the conflict. The correct response is to favour neither Israel nor Palestine over the other, not to shift support wholely onto Palestine.

Probably the best post so far on this thread.

This argument is extremely fallacious. There is no "moral symmetry" whatsoever between israel's crimes and the palestinian resistance. There is no justification for genocide.

You're not getting the point. There is the intention to kill on both sides. Just because Israel is better equipped, better trained and better at killing, and just because the Palestinian casualty rate is higher than the Israeli one, it doesn't mean the Palestinians are completely innocent. But there's no point. It's clear you've already decided that Israel is just as bad (or worse) than Nazi Germany(which is not only stupid and wrong, but also rather offensive), and you're not helping anyone by taking sides.

 

[salida]

I wonder why Israel was attacking? A dah! Maybe its called self defense. I notice that Israel doesn't go around using airliners to run into other countries buildings-maybe that is why they arn't labeled terrorist. And they don't behead everyone who is against their religion ya think?

Oh, yes the credible holy UN- they are just so credible and perfect with blemish:
http://www.frontpagemag.com/readArticle.aspx?ARTID=36405

 

[Chipahualca]

You're not getting the point. There is the intention to kill on both sides. Just because Israel is better equipped, better trained and better at killing, and just because the Palestinian casualty rate is higher than the Israeli one, it doesn't mean the Palestinians are completely innocent.

So what about the jews killing SS personnel in their ghettoes ? Does that mean that since there was intent to kill Germans on the jewish side, there is a moral symmetry between Nazi Germany and the genocide victims ? The answer is no, because german crimes far outweigh any crime perhaps commited by a jew defending his people in the ghetto.

In kind, israeli crimes far outweigh anything that is being done to the israelis.

This is consistent morality.

 

[Chipahualca]

I wonder why Israel was attacking? A dah! Maybe its called self defense. I notice that Israel doesn't go around using airliners to run into other countries buildings-maybe that is why they arn't labeled terrorist.

9/11 is for you an act of terrorism ?

Compared to the US crimes against the iraqi population, in which 2 or more million innocents died because of american greed and powerthirst since Clinton refused to alleviate Iraq from sanctions, 9/11 looks really benign, not really worth mentioning.

 

[Supreme]

So what about the jews killing SS personnel in their ghettoes ? Does that mean that since there was intent to kill Germans on the jewish side, there is a moral symmetry between Nazi Germany and the genocide victims ? The answer is no, because german crimes far outweigh any crime perhaps commited by a jew defending his people in the ghetto.

In kind, israeli crimes far outweigh anything that is being done to the israelis.

This is consistent morality.

I'm stunned at your lack of sensitivity (and intelligence) when you compare the Israeli government to the Third Reich. How dare you compare what the Israelis are doing to the lowest point in not just Jewish history, but human history. I think you need to get your agenda sorted before you hope to be taken seriously as a debater in this thread. I may not agree with what the Israelis are doing in terms of their treatment of the Palestinians, but I've recieved a far better education in history then to make silly, insensitive claims comparing the Israelis to the Nazis.

I'm disgusted, frankly. *Post reported*.