#notmytaxbreak

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Tax revenues increase when tax rates are cut for several reasons. Government spending is another issue. Even Berrnie Sanders said that Trumps middle class tax cuts were a good thing, he wished they were permanent. Obama in effect massively raised taxes on the middle class with the ACA fraud.

The tax revenue has to increase more than the revenue lost from the taxes for this to be true, and it has not been true for the last 40 years.

It's magical thinking that you can always cut taxes and bring in more revenue, only embraced by ideologues who have no connection with reality and haven't looked at the data after each of the last three major tax cuts.
 
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Colter

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I agree thatbit
The tax revenue has to increase more than the revenue lost from the taxes for this to be true, and it has not been true for the last 40 years.

It's magical thinking that you can always cut taxes and bring in more revenue, only embraced by ideologues who have no connection with reality and haven't looked at the data after each of the last three major tax cuts.
I agree that cutting tax to unleash pent up economic activity does have a stopping point, but by the same token the claim that high taxation creates a middle class via trickle down government is the real fraud.

Government can itself be a greedy, rich and powerful entity.
 
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FenderTL5

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..the claim that high taxation creates a middle class via trickle down government..
Money does not trickle down, ever.
The natural flow of money is up, from those with little toward those who have a lot.
The trick is how to "inject" money into the lower levels to keep the economy moving. It can be done with wages, taxes with investments and a host of other ways. Throwing cash at the wealthy, via horse and sparrow, supply-side, trickle-down, voodoo, neo-liberal policy has never worked.
Businesses/corporations do not create jobs because they have cash. They create jobs when there is demand for the product/service that can not be met without hiring. Unless there's money in the middle class, there will not be an influx of jobs.
 
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HannahT

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Businesses/corporations do not create jobs because they have cash. They create jobs when there is demand for the product/service that can not be met without hiring. Unless there's money in the middle class, there will not be an influx of jobs.

We will see how this effects small and medium size business. They were the ones getting crushed under the current tax model, and we will have to see how it effects them now. All the loopholes, etc people are worried about? You don't see those types of stories majority of time.

They can be the driver of growth, and are normally left out of the discussion when this type of thing comes up.

I closed my small business a number of years ago to take care of family members - I had three. It wasn't that I couldn't continue, but I had to make a decision on who needed the priority. After 15+ years I decided I didn't need the extra pressure and stress of the business on top of everything else. I closed up, but many of my fellow business owners closed up for different reasons. When they had to close? Many jobs - besides the owners - were lost.

Anyway, the majority of companies that supplied the jobs, etc in our area - and in many areas - are this class of business. While others were worried about the wealthy? Smaller businesses were being crushed by taxes, regulations, etc. ACA also had a hand in lack of growth in this sector too. Some businesses aren't old enough - or big enough - yet to supply the perks the government told them they should. You can have demand there, but its harder to fulfill it when you look at the possible ramifications if you do. You also have to look at the possibility if the demand ceases/reduces, and how your company could handle that.

We have so many awesome entrepreneurs in this country, and creative minds for innovation. I'm hoping this spurs growth in those smaller sectors of business, and growth again. Small and Medium size companies do help with jobs and wages. They just aren't normally thought about when it comes down to things. Yet, they are a HUGE part of the equation. It always amazed me how people forget about them, and I would guess they don't realize the impact they have on the economy.
 
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Colter

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Money does not trickle down, ever.
The natural flow of money is up, from those with little toward those who have a lot.
The trick is how to "inject" money into the lower levels to keep the economy moving. It can be done with wages, taxes with investments and a host of other ways. Throwing cash at the wealthy, via horse and sparrow, supply-side, trickle-down, voodoo, neo-liberal policy has never worked.
Businesses/corporations do not create jobs because they have cash. They create jobs when there is demand for the product/service that can not be met without hiring. Unless there's money in the middle class, there will not be an influx of jobs.
Businesses create the wealth that government clumzily attempts to redistribute.
 
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FenderTL5

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Businesses create the wealth that government clumzily attempts to redistribute.
Agree, which is why the government policy of dumping more and more cash to already wealthy corporations, which will create even more wealth for themselves, is brain-dead stupid.
 
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JohnHarthover

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Businesses create the wealth that government clumzily attempts to redistribute.

OK, this talking point gets way too much play.

Economies are large ecosystems that require many different parts to work in unison. Most modern businesses could not succeed without (at a minimum) (a) laws and police to enforce them, (b) roads and other forms of transportation, and (c) an educated labour force, (d) sources of electricity, (e) clean drinking water, (f) food for their labor forces to survive on, (g) buildings produced by construction forces. While some of these things are provided by for-profit or non-profit companies, others are typically provided by the government for good reason. Each of those things - including the services provided by the government - produce wealth.

Governments also produce wealth by taking on important parts of the economy that do not fit well with markets. A good example is cancer research: much of cancer research is hard to commodify and therefore has to be funded by charities and the government. That sort of research has a proven track record of producing large amounts of wealth and substantial improvements in people's actual lives.

However, its also worth noting that generating wealth isn't really a good goal for a society, because wealth is a somewhat artificial concept. A government could allow folks to steal from one another. Stealing and protection rackets would generate wealth for the participants, but it wouldn't make our societies any better. Rather than consider wealth as an end, its better to aim for improvements in the underlying value of what is being produced in an economy. Part of the role of governments is to ensure that wealth and value go hand in hand by establishing laws and police to enforce them.

At the end of the day, both governments and businesses can be wasteful. Both take on critical parts of economies. Whether businesses or the government should take over some component of the economy depends on a variety of complex factors.

Income redistribution has completely different arguments for and against it.
 
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Colter

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It’s a
OK, this talking point gets way too much play.

Economies are large ecosystems that require many different parts to work in unison. Most modern businesses could not succeed without (at a minimum) (a) laws and police to enforce them, (b) roads and other forms of transportation, and (c) an educated labour force, (d) sources of electricity, (e) clean drinking water, (f) food for their labor forces to survive on, (g) buildings produced by construction forces. While some of these things are provided by for-profit or non-profit companies, others are typically provided by the government for good reason. Each of those things - including the services provided by the government - produce wealth.

Governments also produce wealth by taking on important parts of the economy that do not fit well with markets. A good example is cancer research: much of cancer research is hard to commodify and therefore has to be funded by charities and the government. That sort of research has a proven track record of producing large amounts of wealth and substantial improvements in people's actual lives.

However, its also worth noting that generating wealth isn't really a good goal for a society, because wealth is a somewhat artificial concept. A government could allow folks to steal from one another. Stealing and protection rackets would generate wealth for the participants, but it wouldn't make our societies any better. Rather than consider wealth as an end, its better to aim for improvements in the underlying value of what is being produced in an economy. Part of the role of governments is to ensure that wealth and value go hand in hand by establishing laws and police to enforce them.

At the end of the day, both governments and businesses can be wasteful. Both take on critical parts of economies. Whether businesses or the government should take over some component of the economy depends on a variety of complex factors.

Income redistribution has completely different arguments for and against it.
“The ideal state undertakes to regulate social conduct only enough to take violence out of individual competition and to prevent unfairness in personal initiative. Here is a great problem in statehood: How can you guarantee peaceand quiet in industry, pay the taxes to support state power, and at the same time prevent taxation from handicapping industry and keep the state from becoming parasitical or tyrannical?”

It’s a given that taxes are needed to pay for basic services. The $3+ Trillion that flows in D.C. each year far exceeds infrastructure needs.
 
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ArmenianJohn

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What savings? I'm going to pay more. In fact, I'm paying my next year's property tax early (this week, before Jan 1) in order to reduce how much I'll be paying. What kind of drugs do people take that they think I'm going to get a tax break? Must be some strong hallucinogens, probably the same ones that make them think Trump is good in any way. Seriously, you have no concept of reality if you think I'm getting money back because I am paying thousands more due to these stupid "tax breaks" (which is a lie, it's a tax increase). How dumb!
 
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I found a calculator on FB. It told me my husband and I would save $2400...

I don't believe it. And I was relying on guesswork. I am retiring and will be replacing my earnings with a $500 a month pension (I'm over 66 so I already get my Social Security check).

The other unknown is that my husband will turn 70 1/2 next year and will have to withdraw a certain amount out of his IRA each year that follows (proportionately more each year because it's based on life expectancy). I'm not sure exactly what that will be.

While I was working (even when I cut my hours down to 20 a week) we were very disciplined and didn't pull anything out of our IRA's, and I'm not sure of the tax impact.

Even if we don't spend the money, we will still have to pull it out and put it in another investment vehicle.
 
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variant

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I agree thatbit

I agree that cutting tax to unleash pent up economic activity does have a stopping point

The idea that the tax cuts will always be recovered in economic gain is a talking point.

How and where you cut taxes is important and the Republican party has decided to reward the already well to do with another very large windfall.

Where that money will come from is the question, not, whether or not the entire thing will be recovered in economic growth.

but by the same token the claim that high taxation creates a middle class via trickle down government is the real fraud.

Government can itself be a greedy, rich and powerful entity.

It can be if it goes to far, but when we take this path we are on to the extreme (as we are), we will end up in a society so stratified in wealth and power that it ceases to function well. Those are the problem extremes.
 
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Colter

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What savings? I'm going to pay more. In fact, I'm paying my next year's property tax early (this week, before Jan 1) in order to reduce how much I'll be paying. What kind of drugs do people take that they think I'm going to get a tax break? Must be some strong hallucinogens, probably the same ones that make them think Trump is good in any way. Seriously, you have no concept of reality if you think I'm getting money back because I am paying thousands more due to these stupid "tax breaks" (which is a lie, it's a tax increase). How dumb!
The idea that the tax cuts will always be recovered in economic gain is a talking point.

How and where you cut taxes is important and the Republican party has decided to reward the already well to do with another very large windfall.

Where that money will come from is the question, not, whether or not the entire thing will be recovered in economic growth.



It can be if it goes to far, but when we take this path we are on to the extreme (as we are), we will end up in a society so stratified in wealth and power that it ceases to function well. Those are the problem extremes.
The improvident expect the thrifty to take care of them. We have a people problem!
 
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HannahT

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What savings? I'm going to pay more. In fact, I'm paying my next year's property tax early (this week, before Jan 1) in order to reduce how much I'll be paying. What kind of drugs do people take that they think I'm going to get a tax break? Must be some strong hallucinogens, probably the same ones that make them think Trump is good in any way. Seriously, you have no concept of reality if you think I'm getting money back because I am paying thousands more due to these stupid "tax breaks" (which is a lie, it's a tax increase). How dumb!

I'm not sure who you have been listening to, but they have been discussing the tax circumstance for weeks now. I don't remember one person claiming 'everyone' would get a tax break. It's always been in accordance with your circumstance.

I'm in a high tax state, but we aren't paying early. lol not sure we could swing it!

We are leaving our state, because of the tax burden. It's not federal, but state. Some claim we are paying for the many amenities the state offers, but when you can't afford to retire here? People get driven out of the state, and so I don't know who else will be left to pay for them. Our state (don't know about yours) has a tendency to raise them on everyone, but then claim its only the wealthy. Yeah. That's why people like us that aren't rich are leaving, and I read it was about 33,000 people that left last year. I guess we will be in good company. We are out of here from late Spring, Early summer!

I'm all for paying my fair share - as the saying goes! Yet, when you tax me out of the state? It's a tad much. If our property taxes were not so high? We might be in a better position. I guess they had to cap it somewhere.
 
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CGL1023

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What if I end up paying more in taxes after all is said and done?

(I haven't crunched the numbers on the 'as-passed' bill but it was a possibility under the two separate proposals if itemized deductions were lost and the standard (even doubled) applied)

I as a retiree do not foresee any personal benefit from the new law. I appreciate the fact that conservative economic principles and forces are finally at work.
 
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FenderTL5

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Colter

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FenderTL5

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The top 20% pay 84% of all Federal income taxes paid.
Just curious; how much of the nations wealth do the top 20% control/own?
 
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HannahT

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Just curious; how much of the nations wealth do the top 20% control/own?

Just curious: What has that got to do with the tax brackets? Since they pay the lion's share of the taxes too. I'm not sure that has anything to do with the discussion at hand.

I realize its the popular thing to do to ask others to pay more. Yet, it is curious that people are upset when themselves are asked to do so. People in poverty for example aren't, and those are the ones we should be more concerned about.


So, we ignore all the discussions over the last weeks? Things like property taxes per state are different, and other items as well. I think everyone knows that effects your taxes.

Are you saying the tax brackets themselves went UP? The amount of deductions vary as we know.
 
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KCfromNC

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I as a retiree do not foresee any personal benefit from the new law. I appreciate the fact that conservative economic principles and forces are finally at work.
If you like this you'll love step 2 - cutting social security and medicare/medicaid.
 
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