Not meant to directly offend, but I want an answer: Lutheranism

[indra_fanatic]

Everybody here of all denominations,

I kid you not--I say this not to be an insult, but I want a real answer or an attempt at one: how can somebody today choose to be a Lutheran, and be proud of it?

How can people today still choose to follow an individual who taught, among other things, that mankind is at fault in not killing Jews and that a Jew seeking to convert to Lutheranism should have a millstone hung around his neck and thrown into the river? That's just the tip of the iceberg, too. He published numerous volumes of hatred against God's chosen people, most famously On The Jews And Their Lies. It is taken nearly universally to be fact that his writings were studied by the young Hitler.

He also had plenty of venom to spew against women and his fellow German peasants, amongst many other classes of people he hated. Luther is also rumored to have been an alcoholic, and some of his personal accounts (i.e. literally describing picking up human feces and throwing it at the devil) bring serious question to his sanity.

How can Protestants rail against the evils and crimes of various popes, but ignore the fact that what Luther taught and did was at least as bad?

I know exactly how 99% of you will respond to this, and that is fine--I just want some kind of response.

Apologies for being offensive--I give you my word that was not my intention.

Indra

 

[Fireinfolding]

I dont know the popes or Luther. In my eighteen years as a Christian I never heard of him. I cant possibly follow a man I dont know.

Besides, I just found out I was (what is considered a protestant) this year, and I never made a protest, go figure.

Its best not to let our faith stand in men (CC, Prots whichever). They will often dissapoint any high expectations we might have regarding them when we actually do.

Peace

Fireinfolding

 

[indra_fanatic]

You give sage advice, Fireinfolding. I do not put trust or stock in any human leaders also. I really think very few nationally-known speakers and pastors even today teach the truth and have no financial or other motives.

 

[Fireinfolding]

You give sage advice, Fireinfolding. I do not put trust or stock in any human leaders also. I really think very few nationally-known speakers and pastors even today teach the truth and have no financial or other motives.

Its best not too Indra ya surely cant be dissapointed or shaken by what you have not put your trust in.

Though I definately dont think we ought to be paranoid about it either.

Peace

Fireinfolding

 

[GodsChild07]

Everybody here of all denominations,

I kid you not--I say this not to be an insult, but I want a real answer or an attempt at one: how can somebody today choose to be a Lutheran, and be proud of it?

How can people today still choose to follow an individual who taught, among other things, that mankind is at fault in not killing Jews and that a Jew seeking to convert to Lutheranism should have a millstone hung around his neck and thrown into the river? That's just the tip of the iceberg, too. He published numerous volumes of hatred against God's chosen people, most famously On The Jews And Their Lies. It is taken nearly universally to be fact that his writings were studied by the young Hitler.

He also had plenty of venom to spew against women and his fellow German peasants, amongst many other classes of people he hated. Luther is also rumored to have been an alcoholic, and some of his personal accounts (i.e. literally describing picking up human feces and throwing it at the devil) bring serious question to his sanity.

How can Protestants rail against the evils and crimes of various popes, but ignore the fact that what Luther taught and did was at least as bad?

I know exactly how 99% of you will respond to this, and that is fine--I just want some kind of response.

Apologies for being offensive--I give you my word that was not my intention.

Indra

Luther was a product of The church of Rome, which at the time was totally corrupt. The beliefs he brought with him were not just his own. He was just brazen, bold, arrogant or stupid enough to write down his thoughts.
The Lutheran Church is nothing more than "Catholic Light".

 

[indra_fanatic]

I agree with you, Lutheranism for the most part is the closest of Protestant denominations to Catholicism. But that's a separate thing from the anti-Semitism and misogyny.

 

[Oye11]

I agree with you, Lutheranism for the most part is the closest of Protestant denominations to Catholicism. But that's a separate thing from the anti-Semitism and misogyny.

If you can come up with a link to a source to establish the claim that he threw feces at the devil, I`d like to see it. I`ve never heard that one before.

And as to the beer drinking, well he was German. What do you expect...

 

[PaladinValer]

So...Lutherans today are as bad as Luther?

Wow...

What sad logic.

 

[GratiaCorpusChristi]

The truth of Lutheran doctrine is not dependent upon Luther. It is dependent upon fidelity of the Scriptures and the gospel of Jesus Christ.

 

[indra_fanatic]

I did not say they are as bad as Luther. I asked how they can knowingly consider themselves followers of him.

 

[Oye11]

I did not say they are as bad as Luther. I asked how they can knowingly consider themselves followers of him.

I`m not sure they do... I`m Methodist but do not consider myself a follower of Wesley. I follow Jesus Christ.

 

[HypnoToad]

I did not say they are as bad as Luther. I asked how they can knowingly consider themselves followers of him.

Probably because they don't consider themselves "followers of Luther". Most of them are well aware of his shortcomings. He led the reformation, that's pretty much the only reason.

Just because one is Republican doesn't mean one agrees with everything Bush does.

 

[Jipsah]

I kid you not--I say this not to be an insult, but I want a real answer or an attempt at one: how can somebody today choose to be a Lutheran, and be proud of it?

Because the Lutherans, on the whole, preach sound doctrine.

How can people today still choose to follow an individual who taught, among other things, that mankind is at fault in not killing Jews and that a Jew seeking to convert to Lutheranism should have a millstone hung around his neck and thrown into the river?

Reckon there are any other founders of denominations who were perfect? If so I'd be keen to hear about it. Anyway, Lutherans don't follow Luther, they follow the doctrine that he codified and that many since have refined. On the whole it's pretty good stuff.

It is taken nearly universally to be fact that his writings were studied by the young Hitler.

So?

 

[ContentInHim]

His anti-semitic writings were toward the end of his life. Apparently he was disappointed that the Jews didn't jump on his bandwagon after his split from Rome. Well, why should they? The official church had been burning them for years - why should they think Luther would be any different.

Lutherans follow Jesus, not Luther!

As for anti-semitism, it rears its ugly head every couple of generations and is going full-tilt now, as a matter of fact.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

His anti-semitic writings were toward the end of his life. Apparently he was disappointed that the Jews didn't jump on his bandwagon after his split from Rome. Well, why should they? The official church had been burning them for years - why should they think Luther would be any different.

Lutherans follow Jesus, not Luther!

As for anti-semitism, it rears its ugly head every couple of generations and is going full-tilt now, as a matter of fact.

Hey, blame the Muslims also as they also believe they have replaced the Jews as the "chosen people"!!!!

http://foru.ms/t5615012-jesus-christ-was-he-sent-for-all-mankind.html

-jesus-christ-was-he-sent-for-all-mankind

Hello.We muslims believe he was sent to the sons of Israel not for all mankind.This doesnt mean the one who follows Him in real does a wrong job but this is God's plan for He sent Muhammed-aleyhissalam-to all mankind.Which proofs do christians have to claim that Jesus was sent to entire humanity and not only to the israelites?

 

[Apollo Celestio]

I did not say they are as bad as Luther. I asked how they can knowingly consider themselves followers of him.

They don't. They follow Christ, otherwise they aren't Christians.

 

[ContentInHim]

Luther also gave a clear description of how he was "born-again" while reading the scriptures. Before that he was tormented by the thought that he was not saved - hence his war on/with the devil. Afterwards, well, his description has convinced me that he was born of the spirit! And God used him mightily. Then, he like so many good Christians, went off the rails. :shrug:

 

[BereanTodd]

Contentinhim has answered adeptly, I will just add a voice to the fact that Luter early on showed a heart for the Jews and a desire to see them come to Christ. Later in life, disapointed they had not, was when he tended to write his anti-semitic stuff. That is not excusing him, but no one is perfect, and he was in many senses a product of his time. The only perfect man to ever live was Yeshua - all others before and since have been severely flawed, and no founder of any religious sect is perfect.

 

[Rion]

We do not "follow" him. We follow certain concepts he brought forth. Luther's intention was to reform the Catholic Church, ergo we are Reformed Catholics, not "Catholics Light."

In all honesty I wish that Luther had managed to reform the RCC, and this split never happened, but if the Church could not survive the splits, God wouldn't have allowed it.

Also, by your logic you are following Luther if you do not belong to either the Orthodox or Roman Catholic church.

 

[StTherese]

Probably because they don't consider themselves "followers of Luther". Most of them are well aware of his shortcomings. He led the reformation, that's pretty much the only reason.

Just because one is Republican doesn't mean one agrees with everything Bush does.

...And if your political preferences were in line with the Democratic Party could you still be a Republican?

It isn't the man (Martin Luther) who makes one a Lutheran, but the doctrines/teachings they follow.