Not Another Homosexuality Thread

[Brimshack]

Ok, my thoughts on affirmative action…

I can't say that I am a firm supporter of affirmative action, but I don't see it as a great source of harm either, at least not to those of us in the majority.

I would readily concede that any given affirmative action program necessarily constitutes a violation of the old Brown v. Board of Education pronouncement that separate is inherently unequal. In a certain formal sense it does seem unfair. I do not agree, however, that affirmative action programs are anywhere near as harmful as some conservatives have painted them. Against the general point, just mentioned, I think you have to balance the following:

1) Being a white male protestant is oldest, best, and most successful affirmative action program there ever was. For most of American history, this group effectively rewarded it's own members at the expense of others on a collosal scale. Those of us lucky enough to be born into white anglo saxon families are still reaping the benefits of this old aa program, and so any harms done by facing an affirmative action program are more than offset by the legacy of history.

2) Hiring/firing/admitting school applicants, etc. all of this is an inherently political process in most contexts. Those that feign shock that Affirmative Action programs would offset the value of merit should grow up. The old yarn about equal at the starting gate is nothing but a misdirection technique, BTW. Anyone who believes that should really be the standard of justice should fight tooth and nail to end inheritance altogether.

3) If it strikes anyone as inconsistent that liberals could oppose segregation (the old southern version) and yet support affrmative action, I would say two things:

a) This inconsistency is mirrored by conservatives who did just the opposite on both ends.

b) The core value for most liberals has been supporting oppressed and underprivaleged ssegments of the population. When official segregation was the problem, liberals opposed that in order to end an oppressive system. When status quo economics are the problem liberals typically support affirmative action, etc. in order to provide opportunities in communities without any. There is no inconsistency here, just values placing human dignity over and above formal legal systems.

On the other hand I would ague that some of the most disturbing aspects of affirmative action programs may actually have to do with their impact on minority communities.

- Affirmative Action programs hiring Native Americans or admitting them to schools, for example, effectively promote the hirability of the individuals while doing nothing to change the economics of Indian reservations. Those students, etc. who become well qualified for high paying jobs end up leaving the reservations and working off-reservation. Affirmative Action programs thus provide assistance that is critical to the lives of some individuals, but they actually undermine the development of Indian communities. Is it possible that affirmative action programs could have a similar affect on other communities?

- Another potentially valid objection to affirmative action programs is that they are becoming entitlement programs and in the process losing some of the initial rationale. When desegregation programs were first getting off the ground the idea of accelerating promotion, education, etc. for minorities went hand in hand with tearing down obstacles to their advancement. (For example, a white guy and a black guy work at the same racist company for 20 years, the white guy advances to administrator and the black guy is still an assembly line grunt - ok a grunt first class. Along comes desegregation; they can each now advance on equal terms -FAIR? Not even close, hence the rationale for affirmative action programs in the wake of battles over desegregation.) As time goes on, though, the notion that this is a teporary measure has given way to permanant entitlements, which go hand in hand with permanantly underdeveloped communities. The shear permanance of the emerging system is evidence of it's ineffectiveness.

So, as far as I'm concerned affirmative action is probably not as helpful as most of it's supporters would have us believe, but absolutely nowhere near as harmful as most of it;s bashers pretend. It is however, fun to fight about it, so have at me.

(Note: Post edited in response to Coastie's comments.)

…told you guys it wasn't another homosexuality thread.

 

[OldBadfish]

Hmmmm, good post. Something to think about.

 

[PastorFreud]

It is however, fun to fight about it, so have at me.

How can I fight with a balanced view? You have identified the key components very well.

Mistreatment of Native American populations wasn't really one of the topics trying to be addressed by affirmative actions was it? It seems we need to address that population in an entirely different way and give it the unique attention it deserves. The "Build a Casino" approach seems to have limited benefit.

 

[Brimshack]

Thanks Sean,

PastorFreud:

I wouldn't think that casinos are really part of an affirmative action program. I see that as a function of tribal sovereignty, compromised as it is. Most gambling regulations are at the state level, and sense Indian territory is technically outside that jursdiction (but you can count the growing exceptions of course), that sets the stage for gambling operations, which then become abnormally profitable, precisely because the surrunding territory makes it off-limits. The issue there is political boundaries, not personal advancement.

Affirmative action certainly does apply to native Americans both on and off the reservations, however, and it least on the Navajo Nation there is also tribal preference (if a Navajo is qualified for the job, he technically must be hired over a non-Navajo, but people fudge this all the time - in both directions actually). Various schools in the four corners areas, for example, will apply affirmative action to admission of native students, and that sets the afforementioned dynamics in motion.

 

[PastorFreud]

As far as casinos, I was joking a little. There are some whose response to the Native American problem is "Let 'em build a casino." I do not think this is adequate.

I also was not arguing that affirmative action does not apply to Native Americans, only that affirmative action was not designed to address the breadth of that problem and so it falls short.

And you knew that too or else you are just tired.

 

[PastorFreud]

Brim,

It is too funny! The list of similar threads is nothing even close!!

 

[Brimshack]

Missed your joke, maybe I am just tired. You're right, a lot of people do say that, and a lot of people think the reservations are affirmative action programs too, …quite silly. And of course you are also fright that AA wasn't originally designed to meet the needs of Native Americans. Of course the original purposes of AA policies have little to do with current understanding and practice. Hence, my own rather myopic focus on such policies as they apply to the area where I work. Thank you for the reminder.

 

[PastorFreud]

So what do you think about the idea that we need to give back major portions of land to the Native Americans, especially the Lakotas? Or do you want to stick to AA?

I heard some pretty compelling arguments from white people claiming to represent the Lakota, but then when I talked to a Lakota I heard differently. It makes it difficult. They have no reliable representation. I think they may not even be in major agreement themselves.

 

[coastie]

In a certain formal sense it does seem unfair. I do not agree, however, that affirmative action programs are anywhere near as harmful as conservatives have painted them.

Some conservatives.

I gotta tell you, I've even heard Oliver North say that he didn't think that the idea was "all that bad."

In California (which is my state of reference since I only live in Washington because I have to) it was quite a killer for only certain jobs.

Waiting lists for jobs were sometimes 3 or 4 years (Particularly Sacramento Metropolitan Fire Department), while minorities were being picked from the end of the list during the early formative years of AA.

Those of us lucky enough to be born into white anglo saxon families are still reaping the benefits of this old aa program, and so any harms done by facing an affirmative action program are more than offset by the legacy of history.

How are anglo-saxon males still benefitting? No one in my family is rich, nor do they have any kind of inheritance.

The old yarn about equal at the starting gate is nothing but a misdirection technique, BTW. Anyone who believes that should really be the standard of justice should fight tooth and nail to end inheritance altogether.

It should be the standard of justice. I don't think I understand where you are coming from.

Are you implying that being a minority is a handicap?

Affirmative Action programs thus provide assistance that is critical to the lives of some individuals, but they actually undermine the development of Indian communities. Is it possible that affirmative action programs could have a similar affect on other communities?

I can think of no other situation where this applies since there aren't any sovereign black, hispanic, asian, etc... communities.

However, I don't believe that Native Americans were a concern when implementing this program. A more applicable program would be some sort of Indian economy promotion or payign for Natives college in order to eventually work them up to a more self-dependant state.

Do you think that there are colleges out there that except certain people just because of their race? Perhaps Ivy league schools?

Affiramative action seems to be a shotgun approach to a real, and intriquite problem.

Better funding of schools in primarily minority communities, government intervention when allegations are made of a racist company are two pssible actions, that create equality while raising the bar and challenging everyone.

The shear permanance of the emerging system is evidence of it's ineffectiveness.

This is the point that I was coming to. If this system is working, the issue of inequality shouldn't be a problem anymore.

And is it still a problem? I mean really. I've heard minorities say yes and no. I have a co-worker from Savannah Georgia who thinks that almost all white people are racist, while I have a minority friend from The California Bay area who has never even experienced any form of racism.

Should we target only affected areas?

The affirmative action blanket seems to be more hurtful than helpful in some areas, while very effective in increasing equality in others.

 

[Brimshack]

I don't know enough about the Black Hills claim, except (and I'm shaky on this) that they won their case against the Indian Claims Commission, meaning that they proved to the satisfaction of the U.S. legal system that the Black Hills had been taken from them. then of course they were offered money as compensation, and most of the tribes said "no, we'll have the land back." Of course that wasn't the purpose of the Indian Claims Commission, so it couldn't give them the land back if it's judges wanted to, but it was reasonable to pursue a negotiated settlement and a one time legislative enactment (Taos Pueblo used this strategy successfully in 1970). As I understand it, they had a deal worked out that would return the land to the Lakota and they would run it as a kind of park, and various garuntees would be worked out for non-Indian residents, etc. the deal fell through. My cynical side wonders what elements within the tribes (and their supporters) would have stood to monoolize the resources, etc., but I just don't know enough details to assess the total impact of the deal.

 

[PastorFreud]

Coastie said: How are anglo-saxon males still benefitting? No one in my family is rich, nor do they have any kind of inheritance.

This is a time limited view. When you realize how much of white society was built on the oppression of other people groups, it is apparent. No, you personally may be getting the short end of the stick. Your family may not be directly benefitting at this time. The problem runs deeper than just a couple years ago. It goes back to 200 years ago. A total flip flop is not the most appropriate solution, but neither is denying the benefits that the white race, as a whole, has obtained through mistreatment of other groups.

And isn't it funny? Southern Christians justified slavery using Bible texts. Will we ever learn?

 

[PastorFreud]

Fair nuff, Brim. Your understanding is similar to mine. What I heard from my Lakota friend was that the most effective way that the Lakota were destroyed was by dividing them amongst themselves. White soldiers in particular stirred up factions and divided them against each other. They do the job of destroying themselves without outside help now.

 

[coastie]

This is a time limited view. When you realize how much of white society was built on the oppression of other people groups, it is apparent. No, you personally may be getting the short end of the stick. Your family may not be directly benefitting at this time. The problem runs deeper than just a couple years ago.

Of course it is. It is not equality for others to be faced with difficulties because people before them had the same color skin. I feel this way, no matter what race.

If we based the program on your synopsis, it would abosoltuely be unfair, however, it is not. Affirmative Action is based on creating equality today, not to punish decndents of slave owners and racists or to reward decendents of slaves or those who were oppressed.

It should only be viewed as a method to create equality.

For instance, I'm Irish, my family came to the US during the Potato famine. They worked in Factories and fought in wars. I do not believe that I need reparation from the British, nor do I feel that I deserve special treatment because I'm Irish.

 

[coastie]

Thread moved to News and Current Events.

 

[Brimshack]

I thin it is being generous to refer to Ollie North as a conservative Coastie, but your correction is appropriate anyway. SOME conservatives it is.

AS to your California examples, you may actually be able to demonstrate a relative harm there, but of course to do so, you need to look at not just the preferred job, but the total range of job opportunities. At the same time that whites may have been frozen out of the fire departments, etc. that doesn't mean they are not finding employment elsewhere. Also the relative impact of the minorities hired is also an open question. There may have been a waiting list, but that doesn't mean that a substantial portion of the wait time was due to the minorities they were hiring from the end of the list. The relative harm here is still an open question as far as I'm concerned.

Benefits need not entail extravagant wealth. By your later comments you are clearly aware of differences in the quality of schools, etc. Simply growing up in relatively white communities tends to go with higher standards of education. This then translates to a relatively improved standing in the job market, not necessarily obscene wealth, but relatively better standing.

the notion that Americans are supposed to be equal at the starting gate is a common way of saying that the formal rule structure for a business hiring and promotion scheme or a schools admittance policies should not show any favoritism. very well, but the metaphore implies a great deal more than that. Anyone coming from a high income family has more resources to draw from, has better access to schools, etc. and in somecases may have the luxury of starting public life with enough capital to start a business of their own. Conversely those coming from poor neighborhoods, not only have poorer schools, fewer job opportunities in their home environment, and may even be exposed to unusually high levels of polution (NIMBY sounds loudest when the elites shout it); they are also likely to suffer from overcrowding, and even the high noise levels of poor communities (thinner walls, more people in a small area) will affect such matters as concentration in school. Since, minorities occupy a disproportionate percentage of such communities they suffer a disproportionate level of the setbacks. If the point was really for us all to be equal at the starting gate, none of these factors would be present. I'm beginning to think that principle mght make a good pro-AA theme (as a rationale for compensating for all these factors), but that's not how the principle is used. As I said, if this rule were taken literally, we would have to abolish inheritance altogether, and everyone would have to be a self-made woman.

I'm regretting my choice of examples, though I see no reason the same factor wouldn't apply in other minority communities. If somebody gets a good education (through AA or otherwise), they are more likely to leave the inner city and go live in the suburbs. Brain Drain thus affects other communities as well.

Just because of race, well that would be rare, and rarer still in the Ivy Leagues, but preferences are another matter - perhaps a quantity extra points on a hiring scale. (I know of a completely iliterate minority student allowed into a state U in the four corners area; in an Ivy League U. he would have needed some academic skills to get himself in the ball park).

I'm inclined to agree that better schools would probably be a better solution. And you're right, AA is a shotgun approach at this point. As I said, I don't think it's all it's supporters would have us believe.

 

[PastorFreud]

Actually, Coastie, I agree about the goals of AA needing to be time limited. I thought, when you started off, you were denying the historical need.

Still, with the waiting list for firemen I think you have to consider a couple of other factors. When AA became effective, there wasn't a large pool of qualified people in minority groups because they had been denied opportunity at lower levels for training. Do you think the applicant pool is more even now? I know that I experienced this too when AA first took effect, but I think it has equalized more. Each state has had some different problems and some common ones.

I, too, am part Irish and I agree with you. I didn't mean to support reparations, but I can see that I did. (Forgive me, I just left some threads where people say the bible never supported slavery ever. I'm still in recovery.) What I meant to point out is that the history of inequalities made it so that there were not qualified people for jobs that required minorities due to AA.

I'm not quite sure how this works, but in my town we had to go by a percentage. It was silly. The demographic of my town was 50% minority. About 15 miles away, that town had to go by the same rules, but they were a small town and only 10% minority. Maybe the rules were fair but applied unfairly?

 

[Brimshack]

Alright, by way of extending, i will add one more potential problem to affirmative action programs - as applied to school admittance procedurs. I think this is a critical area, partly because it's the area where I work I suppose, but more importantly, because if the rationale for affirmative action is to provide opportunity education and training are central to that goal.

One area where I see some schools going wrong is in admitting minority students with less preparation while making no extra provisions for assisting them in catching up. To me this is setting people up for a fall. When I was a teaching assistant, for example I fund myself flunking a substantial number of African American students. I flunked a 4th to a 3rd of every class, usually because those students appeared to be incapable of reading, writing, or perhaps they just didn't try. Anyway, it was very clear that a large percentaghe of the students who didn't possess the necessary skills were black. The standard story was that they had been let in despite low scores in order to give them the chance. But most were on their own in an educational environment moving much faster than the ones they had already fallen behind in. The end result was that the majority of these students were there exactly one semester, and that's how long it took to weed them out. In the absence of programs to assist them, many of these students never had a chance.

Of course there are schools which will arrange means of getting minority students through, despite shortcomings. I've heard rumors of a memo in one of the four corners universities, directing teachers to avoid giving writing assignments to Native American students. And I have first hand knowledge of some teachers finding ways to avoid grading native students down, but I am whole-hearedly opposed to this. Affirmative action on the way into the schools is a fact of life; on the way out is another matter.

 

[Brimshack]

Uh oh, Coastie's been working at one for awhile…

 

[coastie]

I thin it is being generous to refer to Ollie North as a conservative Coastie, but your correction is appropriate anyway. SOME conservatives it is.

LOL... well, the Colonel is not exactly liberal.

AS to your California examples, you may actually be able to demonstrate a relative harm there, but of course to do so, you need to look at not just the preferred job, but the total range of job opportunities.

I thought that that is a sub-point here. As for marketable skills, I could do that or be a dispatcher, firefighting being the most enjoyable and best paying.

I doubt there was much of a problem with minority students getting into community colleges, but rather more prestigous, more desirable schools. That is where I draw the parallel.

At the same time that whites may have been frozen out of the fire departments, etc. that doesn't mean they are not finding employment elsewhere.

But doesn't that approach lock certain races into certain job fields. Equality shoudl apply to all jobs, selectively choosing which jobs it should apply to is counter-productive.

None-the-less, I do agree, to a point.

Simply growing up in relatively white communities tends to go with higher standards of education. This then translates to a relatively improved standing in the job market, not necessarily obscene wealth, but relatively better standing.

Do you think that that makes affirmative action irrelevent?

I haven't formed a solid conclusion yet.

Conversely those coming from poor neighborhoods, not only have poorer schools, fewer job opportunities in their home environment,

Which is why the military provides such a service to minority and poorer communities. The military's education pragrams and extensive specialized training opportunities is a great asset in these situations.

Maybe another program similar to the military in which anyone can take advantage of the same opportunities and thus "start with a clean slate". That would undoubtedly benefit everyone willing to comply.

Since, minorities occupy a disproportionate percentage of such communities they suffer a disproportionate level of the setbacks. If the point was really for us all to be equal at the starting gate, none of these factors would be present.

That's why I am a supporter of California updated, more demographically relevant form of affirmative action. As far as I've heard, that system is much more progressive than that of other states. However, it still has the inherent problem of fixing the wheel when the axel's broken.

If somebody gets a good education (through AA or otherwise), they are more likely to leave the inner city and go live in the suburbs. Brain Drain thus affects other communities as well.

We are looking at this from different standpoints. I tend to think more along the lines of Blue Collar while others seem to put a deal more value on the white collar jobs as personal achievement.

. (I know of a completely iliterate minority student allowed into a state U in the four corners area; in an Ivy League U. he would have needed some academic skills to get himself in the ball park).

And that is what some conservatives consider their political chew toy, even though it is not a common occurance.

I'm inclined to agree that better schools would probably be a better solution. And you're right, AA is a shotgun approach at this point. As I said, I don't think it's all it's supporters would have us believe.

I don't have anything further to say, I just want to make sure everyone saw this

 

[coastie]

By Brimshack:

Uh oh, Coastie's been working at one for awhile…

LOL... I had to take a break so that I could do a quick broadcast

[br]

By PastorFreud:

Still, with the waiting list for firemen I think you have to consider a couple of other factors. When AA became effective, there wasn't a large pool of qualified people in minority groups because they had been denied opportunity at lower levels for training.

Actually, firefighting is a good example because until the early 90's to get a job with a fire department, all you really needed was some kind of work experience (especially in contruction). Traingin has become much more important due to more sophisticated tools, and medical responsiblities.

I, too, am part Irish and I agree with you. I didn't mean to support reparations, but I can see that I did. (Forgive me, I just left some threads where people say the bible never supported slavery ever. I'm still in recovery.)

No worries, Pator. Reparations is a topic that gets my goat

What I meant to point out is that the history of inequalities made it so that there were not qualified people for jobs that required minorities due to AA.

And, praise God, in many places in this country we have effectively bridged the gap.

The demographic of my town was 50% minority. About 15 miles away, that town had to go by the same rules, but they were a small town and only 10% minority. Maybe the rules were fair but applied unfairly?

This is a very good example of the futility of the program in it's earliest stages and still evident in other areas.

However, I'm going to go out on a limb. There are some jobs that get more of one minority group of applicants than the other. Though impossible, the rules would be most effective if they were based on some sort of analysis of community and applicant demographics

I can see the difficulty in creating calculations based on these statistics, which is why I believe that the program is not the answer that we are looking for when confronted with creating equality.