Non-Pauline Christians

[All Souls]

The list of differences between what Yeshua teachs and what Paul teaches is at the end of the book <The Shocking Truth>. Please read it.

Have you read Romans and the Theology of Paul or The Law in Romans 2? What about Jesus and the Identity of God?

 

[drstevej]

Here's a quote from <Shocking Truth>

COMMENT: How many people carry a coffin?
SIX and they&#8217;re called
PAUL bearers, bearers of DEATH. That&#8217;s aPAULing!

How can you read that tripe so uncritically?

 

[All Souls]

Whatever Paul say i completely disregard.

When was the last time you read his work properly? Some excellent commentaries:

Paul for Everyone: Galatians and Thessalonians
Paul for Everyone: Romans: Chapters 9-16

You may also like Paul and the Faithfulness of God.

 

[drstevej]

Ever heard of the saying: Robbing from Peter to pay Paul ?

Here are some of the Famous People Quoted:

• Albert Schweitzer :
• Carl Jung (Psychologist) :
• George Bernard Shaw :
• Bishop John S. Spong (Episcopal theologian) :
• Thomas Jefferson :
• Thomas Hardy :
• Will Durant (Philosopher) :
• Carl Sagan (Scientist; Author) :

This is worse than a Jack Chick tract.

 

[All Souls]

How easy is it to be deceived?
Answer: If you&#8217;re reading this you have been deceived at some point in your life.

Couldn't have said it better myself!

 

[Joseph474]

Also I humbly recommend the videos by Mishayah, TrustinJC, etc.
https://www.youtube.com/user/mishayah
https://www.youtube.com/user/trustinjc

 

[Joseph474]

Here's a quote from <Shocking Truth>



How can you read that tripe so uncritically?

Not everything in it is truth.
But you are focusing on what is not important.
What is important:

Is Paul of Tarsus valid?
Why is his preachings filled with paganizing?(Questioning Paul did it even better. he exposed usage of pagan words in Galatians..well this dude knows Greek! he started out wanting to defend Paul but ended up wrote this..)
Why is he against Torah and argue for faith without works?

If Paul of Tarsus is invalid, whatever books you guys recommended have no value at all. Please address the paganizing issue first. Please write an rebuttal of the entire http://www.wardsoft.net/misc/PaulChallenge.pdf and http://www.wardsoft.net/misc/questionsforyourpreacheraboutPaul.pdf

 

[drstevej]

I read the Shocking Truth junk. I do not wish to read or watch more of this blatant mudslinging that bears false witness. It is not humble to recommend this trash, it is the height of presumption.

 

[All Souls]

Not everything in it is truth.

So not everything in Shocking Truth is actually true, Oh, ok Who wrote it? Was it peer-reviewed? What training have they had?

 

[All Souls]

It claims Paul plagarised the Essenes Gospel of Peace, now please can you tell me where this can be found?

 

[Joseph474]

I do not support videos such as porkchops with Paul since they are too casual and do not always make sense. But "Silver Bullet for a Benjamin Wolf" for example is nice.

 

[drstevej]

Not everything in it is truth.
But you are focusing on what is not important.
What is important:

Is Paul of Tarsus valid?
Why is his preachings filled with paganizing?(Questioning Paul did it even better. he exposed usage of pagan words in Galatians..well this dude knows Greek!)
Why is he against Torah and argue for faith without works?

It is trash and your claims do not hold water.


Deuteronomy is patterned after Hittite suzerainty treaties, that does not make it not God's Word.

Do you consider Deuteronomy a paganized book?

 

[Joseph474]

I read the Shocking Truth junk. I do not wish to read or watch more of this blatant mudslinging that bears false witness. It is not humble to recommend this trash, it is the height of presumption.

I at least was not in arrogance in mind when I posted this.

 

[drstevej]

I watched two minutes of the video and it is more bogus claims without support.

 

[Joseph474]

It is trash and your claims do not hold water.


Deuteronomy is patterned after Hittite suzerainty treaties, that does not make it not God's Word.

Do you consider Deuteronomy a paganized book?

It is not patterned after paganism, right? Pagan people and pagan religion are not the same thing.

 

[Der Alte]

There is a TS article that I do not completely agree with. But this addresses this issue:
What about 2 Peter ?

2 Peter was never even written by Peter.

What you might say? Have you searched it out? Of course you should.

So you just pick and choose whatever supports your own assumptions/presuppositions.

The Greek semantics are very different compared to those of 1 Pet. They were not written by the same person.
A number of prominent (need I saw exalted) preachers of yesteryear have reached the same conclusion.
Maybe no one has told you yet – because they’re not seeking the truth or are scared to.

How does this guy know the Greek semantics are very different? Some examples please? "a number of prominent (need I say exalted) preachers of yesteryear have reached the same conclusion.?" Logical fallacy, poisoning the well. Who are these so-called exalted preachers and where can we read what they said? Or do I hear the sound of crickets?

In addition :

(1). PETER KNEW THAT "PAUL" WAS NOT A DISCIPLE OF JESUS
The UTTER IMPOSSIBILTY of the apostle Peter endorsing Paul is shown in Acts Chapter 9 where we read that; despite the testimony of 'Paul' together with the alleged supporting testimony of 'Paul's' disciple Annanias (vs 18) to the bona fides of Paul; Peter and the other apostles and disciples REJECTED Paul: "When he came to Jerusalem he was trying to associate with the disciples; but they were ALL (including Peter) afraid of him, "NOT BELIEVING THAT HE WAS A DISCIPLE" (Acts 9:26).

Being afraid or unsure about Paul is not the same as rejecting him.

The "Twelve apostles of the Lamb" (Rev 21:14) knew that a TRUE DISCIPLE of Jesus would ONLY come to true faith and become a disciple of Jesus ONLY through the word of the Twelve apostles; "those who believe in me through their word" (John 17:20); and NOT from any alleged vision, real or otherwise.

Where is this stated in scripture.

(2). FORGERIES

It is ABUNDANTLY clear that BOTH of the letters attributed to The apostle Peter are in fact FORGERIES, seeking to, not only DISCREDIT Peter, but also to BOOST Paul's credibility at a time when he was REJECTED by 'EVERYONE IN ASIA'(2 Timothy 1:15) as he admitted as much to his disciple Timothy ".

Unlike you I don't believe something just because somebody says "it is abundantly clear" I want to see clear and convincing evidence.

(3). "DO NOT BE CALLED LEADERS (apostles)..."

Peter just like the other apostles such as Matthew, John, James and Jude; would never give himself the title of 'An Apostle', in OBEDIENCE TO THE EXPRESSED COMMAND OF Jesus.

"But do not be called Rabbi; for One is your Teacher, and you are all brothers.
(Matthew 23:8)

"Do NOT be called leaders (apostles); for ONE IS YOUR LEADER, that is,THE MESSIAH.
(Matthew 23:10)

The Greek word for leaders is &#954;&#945;&#952;&#951;&#947;&#951;&#964;&#951;&#769;&#962;/kathegetes. The word for apostle, a completely different word, &#945;&#787;&#960;&#959;&#769;&#963;&#964;&#959;&#955;&#959;&#962;/apostolos. Big fail when you have to change scripture to prove your false argument.

THIS ALONE CONFIRMS THAT BOTH 1 and 2 Peter are CRUDE FORGERIES. THE FOLLOWING ARE ADDITIONAL PROOFS:

(4). WRITTEN 'BY SILVANUS'

The INTERNAL evidence confirms that 'I Peter' was clearly written "by Silvanus" (5:12) and NOT by Peter".
'Silvanus' was joint author, together with 'Paul' and Timothy of the letters known as 2 Corinthians together with 1 and 2 Thessalonians.

Who was Silvanus and what is the so-called evidence that proves he wrote 1-2 Peter? Any examples of his writing to compare?

(5). 'PAUL' QUOTES FROM HIS OWN LETTERS IN PSEUDO 1 and 2 Peter

The following are just a few examples which prove conclusively that 'Paul' or his disciples was the author of 1 and 2 Peter.

PAUL'S Misogony (Hatred of women):

(a) "Likewise, you wives, you shall be in subjection to your own husbands" (1 Peter 3:1)

REPEATED by Paul under his own name:

"Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands" (Ephesians 5:22)

"Wives, regarding your adorning, let it not be that of the outward adorning of the plaiting of your hair, wearing of gold, or putting on apparel" (1 Peter 3:3)

again repeated by 'Paul' under his own name:

"In like manner also, I command that women adorn themselves in modest apparel with shamefacedness and sobriety -- not with braided hair, or gold, or pearls, or costly array" (1 Timothy 3:9)

"Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection, for I do not tolerate a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to keep her mouth shut" (1 Timothy 2:11).

None of this conclusively proves anything. This is arguments not evidence. 1 Pet 3:1 and 1 Tim 2:11, read Gen 3:16. 1 Pet 3:3 and 1 Tim 3:9 read Isa 3:18-24. Why wouldn't both Peter and Paul quote from or allude to the OT?

(6). WRITTEN IN AND SENT FROM ROME

The INTERNAL evidence, further, confirms that BOTH letters were written in ROME(BABYLON), where ONLY 'PAUL' and NOT Peter, WAS RESIDENT (see Acts 28:30);
"She who is in BABYLON greets you..." (1 Peter 5:13).

Just saying "internal evidence" is meaningless! What is this so-called internal evidence? Babylon is Babylon and Rome is Rome unless you have clear and convincing evidence otherwise.

(7). THE PURPOSE OF SUCH FORGERIES

1 and 2 Peter, are clearly, "Subtle"(Gen 3:1) forgeries, written by either 'Paul' or his disciples, with the express intention of seeking to boost 'Paul's' credibility at a time when he was REJECTED, not only by The Twelve apostles and disciples of JESUS THE MESSIAH (Acts 9:26) and, subsequently,"by EVERYONE IN ASIA"(2 Tim.1:15) as 'Paul' bitterly complained to his disciple Timothy

No evidence that Paul was rejected by the apostles? If Paul's rejection by pagans in Asia was incriminating why would he have included it in his letter?

 

[drstevej]

I at least was not in arrogance in mind when I posted this.

I urge you to think about the wisdom of posting things as true that you have not genuinely verified.

 

[drstevej]

It is not patterned after paganism, right? Pagan people and pagan religion are not the same thing.

Hittites were not followed of YHWH and Hittite religion is incompatible with Torah. Yet Deuteronomy follows the treaty structure common in the Hittite culture. Read Dr. Kline. He is a credible scholar and I have studied under him and listened to his lectures and defense of the views he presents. His material is not like what is sloshed on the sites you cite.

 

[Der Alte]

Here's a quote from <Shocking Truth>

How can you read that tripe so uncritically?

DrSteve you are way too gracious.

 

[All Souls]

Hittites were not followed of YHWH and Hittite religion is incompatible with Torah. Yet Deuteronomy follows the treaty structure common in the Hittite culture. Read Dr. Kline. He is a credible scholar and I have studied under him and listened to his lectures and defense of the views he presents. His material is not like what is sloshed on the sites you cite.

If I may, I'd add Moshe Weinfeld and Jeffrey Tigay, though Deut was patterned after Assyrian treaties not Hittite .