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Non Overlapping Magisteria

Dorothy Mae

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I don't know what 'little green men' have to do with this - unless it's the idea that aliens somehow triggered simple life to become complex? that both begs the question of complex life and is unnecessary - we have a good explanation.
That is wha Dawkins answer was and again, it begs the question as to who created them. It also says life started from an intelligent source, come to think of it. Something he doesnt want to believe.
Evolution by natural selection can produce complex life from simple life by a well-described process and mechanism, with abundant evidence for both, and there are multiple independent lines of evidence that complex life on Earth is a result of that process.
The process has never been well described except as complete fantasy imagined from a person who insists on life from non-life without already living involved. I have heard the "explanations" and they are fantasy.
On a more general note, given suitable conditions and a relatively constant source of free energy, the development of order and complexity is thermodynamically favourable.
They have tried to do this and failed. Again, this is only in the imagination. Real science cannot do this.
OK, so it was more than just the content of the post. The logical conclusion from the post alone is that the poster wants opinions on a contentious quote.
This might be the case. I agree.
 
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SelfSim

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This is not possible. I work with professors in science and their world view comes out. They cannot help it. No one can. The differences in world view is also clear when you hear them talk long enough. To pretend a scientist has no world view is like saying they have no education to influence their understanding. It is impossible. No one comes to research with a blank slate.
.. but if their philosophical worldview biases their working conclusions, this will eventually be revealed when the method is followed. We see this in rejections of so-called 'science', during peer reviews.
Dorothy Mae said:
Science does not have its own philosophy. I have worked with men who are world experts in their field and their world views are not at all like. It depends upon their choices as people. But you position could be tested. We could ask those who are in research on higher levels, if there are any here, to describe the philosophical world views out there. How much are they really aware of any can formulate other philosophical world views. I doubt many can do even their own, but that is only my assumption.
Well that might be an interesting test, but I'm not speaking about their personally held, default philosophies. I'm speaking about what can be demonstrated works for science, whenever I refer to a philosophy of science.
Dorothy Mae said:
A scientist who is not an atheist will find it harder to get ahead in science. You can see the popularity of Dawkins among scientists. Whether they will accept their faith in there being no God or no reason for them to pursue the question as a "religion" is not significant. They believe what they think is the truth. That is faith. They cannot establish it through reason or their science. We cannot establish there being a God through science either. But neither of us can establish there being love or hate or courage or generousity or kindness. Science cannot tell us these things and it cannot establish they do not exist.
I don't know why scientists see the need to respond to questions like: 'Are you an Atheist?', or else: 'what is your religion?' My response to such questions usually revolves around: 'my beliefs (nor yours) don't matter when I'm thinking scientifically, so why do you even ask that question?'
Dorothy Mae said:
Hawkins said "what science cannot tell us mankind cannot know" which is a clear contradiction that he did not see. It is not a statment of science. Since it is not a statment of science, by his own definition, we cannot know it is true. THis is what I mean by scientists having a clear philosophy but being unaware of its influence on their thinking.
(I take it you are referring to Stephen Hawking there?)
The statement's terms can be turned into operational definitions, so it can be an objectively testable statement. Some testable constraints are required around the conclusion of 'cannot' though, as its everyday meaning suggests enduring absolutism .. so I might agree with you on that basis(?)
 
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SelfSim

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... The process has never been well described except as complete fantasy imagined from a person who insists on life from non-life without already living involved. I have heard the "explanations" and they are fantasy.
...
They have tried to do this and failed. Again, this is only in the imagination. Real science cannot do this.
Sigh .. this mantra is like a stuck needle in an old fashioned LP record .. {sigh .. again!}
 
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FrumiousBandersnatch

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That is wha Dawkins answer was and again, it begs the question as to who created them. It also says life started from an intelligent source, come to think of it. Something he doesnt want to believe.
Dawkins concedes the possibility of an alien origin for life on Earth, but doesn't think it either likely or necessary. And as both you and he agree, it would, in any case, leave the ultimate origin of life unexplained.

The process has never been well described except as complete fantasy imagined from a person who insists on life from non-life without already living involved. I have heard the "explanations" and they are fantasy.
The origin of life is a different story from the evolution of complex life from simple life. I was referring to the latter, as you had explicitly mentioned complex life.

As far as the origins of simple life are concerned, we still don't have the answer, although considerable progress has been made - many of the potential steps have already been demonstrated, including the auto-catalysis of metabolic cycles, self-replicating molecules and chemical cycles, and encapsulation in a self-assembling cell wall that permits growth and division.

But even if we manage to demonstrate all the steps necessary to produce simple life, we will probably never know whether that is how it arose originally. Although we know roughly the general conditions on Earth in the relevant period, we don't know the specific environments where the necessary chemistry would have taken place, nor how they varied over time. However, it is only necessary to demonstrate that it was possible.

They have tried to do this and failed. Again, this is only in the imagination. Real science cannot do this.
I think you misread me - I was explicitly referring to the general thermodynamic context, not any particular experiments. It is the case that given suitable conditions and a source of free energy, the emergence of complexity and order is thermodynamically favourable. The emergence and evolution of life is just one (particularly interesting) example of how this plays out.
 
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Dorothy Mae

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Dawkins concedes the possibility of an alien origin for life on Earth, but doesn't think it either likely or necessary. And as both you and he agree, it would, in any case, leave the ultimate origin of life unexplained.
That he didn’t see that his explanation solved nothing at all was most surprising.
The origin of life is a different story from the evolution of complex life from simple life. I was referring to the latter, as you had explicitly mentioned complex life.
Yes I know. It’s an arbitrary division because no plausible explanation has been developed so the question deleted. Complex from simple is the theory.
As far as the origins of simple life are concerned, we still don't have the answer, although considerable progress has been made - many of the potential steps have already been demonstrated, including the auto-catalysis of metabolic cycles, self-replicating molecules and chemical cycles, and encapsulation in a self-assembling cell wall that permits growth and division.
None of that is life but I know the evolutionists will never give up on hoping.
But even if we manage to demonstrate all the steps necessary to produce simple life, we will probably never know whether that is how it arose originally. Although we know roughly the general conditions on Earth in the relevant period, we don't know the specific environments where the necessary chemistry would have taken place, nor how they varied over time. However, it is only necessary to demonstrate that it was possible.
This is where fantasy is ruling the day and not science. Science requires observed in some fashion phenomena. But it is encouraging that you admit you’ll never demonstrate it scientifically.
I think you misread me - I was explicitly referring to the general thermodynamic context, not any particular experiments. It is the case that given suitable conditions and a source of free energy, the emergence of complexity and order is thermodynamically favourable. The emergence and evolution of life is just one (particularly interesting) example of how this plays out.
This is a statement of faith not science. It cannot be demonstrated even in pieces. I’ve read a few papers on the matter and the intelligence that carefully planned the experiments required apparatus impossible in a spontaneous interaction.
 
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Subduction Zone

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That he didn’t see that his explanation solved nothing at all was most surprising.
Yes I know. It’s an arbitrary division because no plausible explanation has been developed so the question deleted. Complex from simple is the theory.
None of that is life but I know the evolutionists will never give up on hoping.
This is where fantasy is ruling the day and not science. Science requires observed in some fashion phenomena. But it is encouraging that you admit you’ll never demonstrate it scientifically.

This is a statement of faith not science. It cannot be demonstrated even in pieces. I’ve read a few papers on the matter and the intelligence that carefully planned the experiments required apparatus impossible in a spontaneous interaction.
Oh so backwards. It appears that you do not know how complex problems in science are solved. You want abiogenesis solved in one fell swoop. It does not work that way. And you also appear to be totally ignorant of the advances in abiogenesis. It is real science, unlike creationism. In fact the reason that creationism is not real science is due to the cowardice of creation "scientists". Meanwhile real scientists continue to solve problems. It is not a mater of "hoping" for those that accept reality. It is a matter of when we solve the problem. Abiogenesis now appears to be unavoidable if the conditions are right and the only problem with it is that there may be more than one pathway to life.

You are in no position to debunk abiogenesis. You lack the expertise. All you can claim is not to believe it. But it is nice that you do admit that evolution is a fact. When creationists move the goalposts to abiogenesis they have thrown in the towel on the evolution argument.
 
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Dorothy Mae

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Sigh .. this mantra is like a stuck needle in an old fashioned LP record .. {sigh .. again!}
Except no scientific answers come forth. You know 1+1=2. Is that like a mantra for you because it keeps repeating?

It’s probably just as well you are not in the followers of christ camp. He just keeps repeating the same message….love others as you love yourself. Just a needle stuck on an LP for you…
 
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SelfSim

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.. None of that is life but I know the evolutionists will never give up on hoping.
@FrumiousBandersnatch was referring to 'simple' life there .. and its up to science to define what that means .. (for the purposes of devising testable predictions). I don't think its the 'life' you mean in your comment there .. I think you have assumed you already know what that definition means.

See, 'life' is often assumed as having a universally applicable meaning, yet there is no evidence either from the beyond the Earth context, nor 'pre-cursor' instances evidenced as leading onto pre-biotic life, from billions of years ago in Earth's past geo-chemical context.
The data set is incomplete.

Dorothy Mae said:
This is where fantasy is ruling the day and not science. Science requires observed in some fashion phenomena. But it is encouraging that you admit you’ll never demonstrate it scientifically.
I, for one, don't have to 'admit' any such thing. Its possible that pre-biotic assemblages could be observed in a beyond Earth context, but still be relevant to Earth's (relevant) past context. We just don't know at this point in time. There is no 'fantasy', when we can conceive, in principle, chemically and physically feasible test scenarios/conditions for relating those contexts.

Dorothy Mae said:
This is a statement of faith not science. It cannot be demonstrated even in pieces. I’ve read a few papers on the matter and the intelligence that carefully planned the experiments required apparatus impossible in a spontaneous interaction.
Its a statement in principle (aka: theoretically possible within the context of the laws of chemistry/physics). That specific empirical tests have not yet been developed, are because the predicted geo-chemical environment and test isolates therefrom, have not been found. Both are necessary for devising those specific tests. They are certainly theoretically feasible in principle though, and I think you'll find that parts of various hypotheses have already tested out anyway .. (with more testing on the way).

That you have 'read a few papers', is hardly sufficient cause for concluding 'a faith' basis there .. particularly when there is already theoretical support from physics/chemistry.
I think you're conflating the theoretical parts of the scientific method with the empirical testing end part and then using the absence of sample specific tests, to rule out the theoretical feasibility.
 
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SelfSim

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Except no scientific answers come forth. You know 1+1=2. Is that like a mantra for you because it keeps repeating?
Ahh .. you confuse the axiomatic basis of math, with the scientific method and expect the same outcomes from both .. two completely distinct animals your conflating there ..

Dorothy Mae said:
It’s probably just as well you are not in the followers of christ camp. He just keeps repeating the same message….love others as you love yourself. Just a needle stuck on an LP for you…
I respect the human mind's capacity for thought .. and I'm continually amazed whenever I actually see it .. its source of continuing deep mystery .. yet not some belief I hold.
 
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Dorothy Mae

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Oh so backwards. It appears that you do not know how complex problems in science are solved. You want abiogenesis solved in one fell swoop. It does not work that way. And you also appear to be totally ignorant of the advances in abiogenesis. It is real science, unlike creationism. In fact the reason that creationism is not real science is due to the cowardice of creation "scientists". Meanwhile real scientists continue to solve problems. It is not a mater of "hoping" for those that accept reality. It is a matter of when we solve the problem. Abiogenesis now appears to be unavoidable if the conditions are right and the only problem with it is that there may be more than one pathway to life.

You are in no position to debunk abiogenesis. You lack the expertise. All you can claim is not to believe it. But it is nice that you do admit that evolution is a fact. When creationists move the goalposts to abiogenesis they have thrown in the towel on the evolution argument.
It appears that you resort fail to the personal insult.

I know quite well how complex problems are solved inside and outside of science. When you can have an intelligent discuss without the ad hominem we can talk. It always demonstrates a lack of both understanding and information when a person resorts to ad hominem. It’s all they got left.
 
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Dorothy Mae

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Ahh .. you confuse the axiomatic basis of math, with the scientific method and expect the same outcomes from both .. two completely distinct animals your conflating there ..
The common denominator is repetition which is unacceptable for you. The same answer to the same question is unacceptable in your mind.
I respect the human mind's capacity for thought .. and I'm continually amazed whenever I actually see it .. its source of continuing deep mystery .. yet not some belief I hold.
If that comforts you, what is there left to say?
 
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SelfSim

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The common denominator is repetition which is unacceptable for you. The same answer to the same question is unacceptable in your mind.If that comforts you, what is there left to say?
Alas .. you seem to have missed the scientific answers provided in post #189, for the series of questions actually being posed (and their purpose) in current scientific Abiogenesis research.

I don't know, (namely because you haven't acknowledged them yet), but I think you really ought to (re)consider the different set of questions, as being quite distinct from the ones your rather repetitive response seemed more geared towards?
Doing so, might help you to avoid my aside analogy of 'mantras .. like a stuck needle in an old fashioned LP record' ..
After all, one won't know if, one doesn't even look .. (and (re)consider)?
Cheers
 
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Ophiolite

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Some in science have eliminated a plausible answer indicated by the evidence, that is an intelligent agent and not “an accident” that led to complex life.
Science follows the principle of methodological naturalism. Thus it does not discount the possibility of supernatural intervention, but simply notes that scientific methods are not adapted to investigating the supernatural, which by its very definition does not follow the laws of nature that the scientific method is so effective at ferreting out.
Consequently, when investigating the origin of life it is appropriate to say, 'maybe life was created by a god, or God, but we're going to take a look at the possibility it arose naturally, since we have some neat techniques for doing that. We'll leave it to others to figure out how to demonstrate the alternative explanation, but faith and revelation are not part of the armoury of science'.
 
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Subduction Zone

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It appears that you resort fail to the personal insult.

I know quite well how complex problems are solved inside and outside of science. When you can have an intelligent discuss without the ad hominem we can talk. It always demonstrates a lack of both understanding and information when a person resorts to ad hominem. It’s all they got left.
There was. No personal insult there. Merely correction.

Like most creationists you do not appear to understand what an ad hominem is either. You cannot support your claims. You have made false claims about the scientists that work in abiogenesis and the work that they have done.

If you want a serious discussion I am all for it. Though there are some reasonable rules we must both follow.
 
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Kylie

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Stephen J Gould, from his book 'Rock Of Ages':

"Science tries to document the factual character of the natural world, and to develop theories that coordinate and explain these facts. Religion, on the other hand, operates in the equally important, but utterly different, realm of human purposes, meanings, and values—subjects that the factual domain of science might illuminate, but can never resolve...These two magisteria do not overlap, nor do they encompass all inquiry (consider, for example, the magisterium of art and the meaning of beauty)."

As this is in the Creation and Evolution sub forum, i would suggest that we can consider those two subjects to be in separate magisteriums. Creation obviously within the religious one and evolution in the scientific.

Is there an overlap?

Yes, there is an overlap wherever science and religion both claim to have explanations for the same thing, such as how the Earth got here, how life forms came to be, etc.
 
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FrumiousBandersnatch

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People trust in Christ not because they've found scientific evidence for the trinity, but because his teachings have transformed their lives for the better (at least in their opinions).
That's fair enough, but rather begs the question, as you have to have already followed Christ's teachings in order for them to have transformed your life... this also implies that any set of ideas that transforms someone's life is equally worthy of commitment - which I wouldn't argue, but makes it seem a bit of a lottery, potentially including all kinds of philosophies and activities, perhaps even sports and hobbies; it also doesn't account for the seeming majority for whom following religious teachings is not transformative but normative.

We could argue that these cases are circumstantial, that people could learn to love others by other secular means. But for many, it's easy to give credit to the source which taught them, which is Jesus. And where Jesus himself acquired these ideas would then stem, according to scripture, from God the father (or Himself depending on your views of the trinity).

So it would be believed because of the fruits it bears.
This may be true for the individuals for whom it has beneficial or transformative effects, but perhaps not for the majority for whom it is just custom, habit, & ritual, not to mention those who have suffered as a consequence.

As for the missionaries, whose work sometimes has a disturbingly self-centred aspect and is not always welcomed by those they target, and apart from accusations of colonial paternalism and elitism, the idea of potentially disrupting whole societies for a few converts seems contrary to the ideals themselves.

Finally, there seems to be a contradiction in believing a religious view - that claims to be the uniquely correct and only true path - because its ideas have transformed your life, while knowing that untold numbers of other people have had their lives transformed by the ideas of a different and conflicting religion that may also claim to be the one correct and true path, and still others have had their lives transformed by non-religious ideas that make no claims of unique correctness.

Logic suggests they can't all be 'right', which makes believing that yours is the one correct and true path while knowing that others believe different 'uniquely true and correct' claims on the same grounds as you, look like an example of human irrationality - or personal exceptionalism (i.e. the beliefs associated with the ideas that transformed my life are right, so others using identical criteria to espouse different beliefs must be wrong).

The rational approach would surely be to acknowledge that a variety of ideas can be transformative, but claims of unique correctness on any grounds common to believers of other belief systems are clearly unsupportable.
 
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Job 33:6

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That's fair enough, but rather begs the question, as you have to have already followed Christ's teachings in order for them to have transformed your life... this also implies that any set of ideas that transforms someone's life is equally worthy of commitment - which I wouldn't argue, but makes it seem a bit of a lottery, potentially including all kinds of philosophies and activities, perhaps even sports and hobbies; it also doesn't account for the seeming majority for whom following religious teachings is not transformative but normative.

If something transforms your life in a positive way then by all means, I would recommend pursuing it. When I say positive, I'm also referring to common ideas such as life, love, joy etc.

Are there things that have improved your life that you wouldn't recommend backing? Ponders your response*

This may be true for the individuals for whom it has beneficial or transformative effects, but perhaps not for the majority for whom it is just custom, habit, & ritual, not to mention those who have suffered as a consequence..

Typically people have freedom to believe or not believe, unless they live in Iraq. But yes, of course there are people who are christian in name only. And of course if someone follows a faith that hurts them in some way, they're free to separate from it, and I'm sure id do the same.

While I think following a faith is fine, I don't think people being forced to follow a religion is fine, if this is your concern.


As for the missionaries, whose work sometimes has a disturbingly self-centred aspect and is not always welcomed by those they target, and apart from accusations of colonial paternalism and elitism, the idea of potentially disrupting whole societies for a few converts seems contrary to the ideals themselves.

Often times missionaries help those who request help. Missionary work comes in all shapes and sizes. I wouldn't consider it disruption at all to build houses for impoverished children, not in a negative sense at least. And if they convert as a product of that, or even further are taught how to build their own houses and go and build for others, I think it would be hard to downplay these benefits.

Some missionaries I would agree though, go on irrational missions, such as the guy who visited that south American tribe who risked receiving diseases from the missionary that would have killed them, and they shot the missionary with a bow and arrow and he died as a result.

These kinds of missions, I would absolutely agree are negatively disruptive and I can't imagine I'd ever partake in. But these don't really change the more common case such as the one described above. Which seem worthy of support to me. But ultimately the goal is to love on others and to show others the love of Christ.That ought to be the root of the equation. Jesus gave us everything, the least we can do is give you a roof to sleep under.

Finally, there seems to be a contradiction in believing a religious view - that claims to be the uniquely correct and only true path - because its ideas have transformed your life, while knowing that untold numbers of other people have had their lives transformed by the ideas of a different and conflicting religion that may also claim to be the one correct and true path, and still others have had their lives transformed by non-religious ideas that make no claims of unique correctness.

Non religious ideas make no claim of unique correctness? :p tell that to Dawkins.

People are free to believe what they want, even as a Christian. But that doesn't mean that you have to go out calling the world wrong, same with atheism. Though some people choose to call others wrong, oftentimes in a distasteful way. Though this does go both ways.

Logic suggests they can't all be 'right', which makes believing that yours is the one correct and true path while knowing that others believe different 'uniquely true and correct' claims on the same grounds as you, look like an example of human irrationality - or personal exceptionalism (i.e. the beliefs associated with the ideas that transformed my life are right, so others using identical criteria to espouse different beliefs must be wrong).

The rational approach would surely be to acknowledge that a variety of ideas can be transformative, but claims of unique correctness on any grounds common to believers of other belief systems are clearly unsupportable.

I never said other faiths (or non faiths) that have transformed other's lives in a positive way must be wrong. Or at the least, not a wrong choice for them to follow.

And as I've said multiple times before, people don't trust in Christ because they have scientific proof of the trinity. I agree that no Christian is going to be in a position to demonstrate that the Christian way is the "true path", but I don't think that should stop people from getting behind something that they see has transformative power in ways that help them or others around them.

If you like red sauce on your pizza, pick the red sauce. If someone else likes white sauce, that's fine, good for them. You don't have to agree nor do you have to scientifically know which sauce is truly the best to support one or the other. And if the red sauce burns your tongue, then by all means, you can walk away from the red sauce and can try bbq. I would do the same.

But if a sauce is good and you experience it's benefits, seems rational to me to get behind it.

There's a book Ive read, written by a pastor, on the extent of Christ's love, even for non-christians. You might be interested in hearing about it or at least it's ideas on these kinds of topics. Maybe when I have more time, I can share. Imagine a case where a black slave has a white christian slave owner. He slave views the Christian faith as a terrible thing because she has learned it through an abusive master. She walks away from Christ. Even in these scenarios, it's feasible that Christ, so loving the world, would even seek to save this individual, even if they died as a non Christian. It's not up to man to decide who goes to heaven or who doesn't, nor would Christ want people to force one another into religions that oftentimes more than not, misrepresent his will for us. And personally I don't think Jesus would support missions trips that negatively impact a societies ability to survive. Even if you love those south Americans, if you bring diseases to them or they shoot arrows at you, you're probably doing something wrong with your mission and likely aren't carrying out Christ's will if you're risking everyone's well being for your own selfish feel-good objectives.
 
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pitabread

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Typically people have freedom to believe or not believe, unless they live in Iraq. But yes, of course there are people who are christian in name only. And of course if someone follows a faith that hurts them in some way, they're free to separate from it, and I'm sure id do the same.

While I think following a faith is fine, I don't think people being forced to follow a religion is fine, if this is your concern.

Depending on one's community, there can be social consequences of not following the norm. Many an atheist has a story of ostracization after deconversion.
 
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pitabread

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This is a statement of faith not science. It cannot be demonstrated even in pieces. I’ve read a few papers on the matter and the intelligence that carefully planned the experiments required apparatus impossible in a spontaneous interaction.

Obviously if one is trying to recreate the conditions of early Earth/life, one has to do so experimentally. Given we don't have time machines to go back ~4 billion years, the next best thing is setting up conditions which mimic an early Earth. To object to such is a bit bizarre, though I do think it's the "out" that creationists leave themselves.

If life the origin of life is ever fully demonstrated end-to-end in the lab, creationists can just claim it took "intelligence" to perform such an experiment and therefore demonstrates intelligent design. Creationists seem to have every possible rationalization ready to go.
 
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